Edge of Europe - A Belgian Interactive AAR

[ThunderHawk3]

New tally.

Again, the [post=15777379]Monarchy Ranked Vote Provision[/post] and [post=15779395]Delcroix List of Candidates[/post] have passed with clear majorities.

The [post=15781403]Galler Legislative Language Article[/post] requests the unanimous consent of the chamber to pass without objection. (Ends 5:30 PM PST 7/14)

[post=15784528]Loewen Parliament Proposal - Ninth Revision[/post] (Ends 8:00 PM PST 7/15)
Yes: 11
No: 8
Abstain: 0

[post=15786315]Belgian Citizenship Provision V3[/post] (Ends 9:00 AM PST 7/16)
Yes: 3
No: 1
Abstain: 0

[post=15786225]Joint Bill of Rights V4[/post] (Ends 9:00 AM PST 7/16)
Yes: 2
No: 2
Abstain: 0

Here are the day 5 proposals. Day 5 will end in 11 hours. At that time, the topic of the day will change. All these proposals listed below will be voted on at the end of the convention as per convention rules.

Spoiler

[post=15784877]Van Buskirk's Proposal on the Special Rights of the Church and Clergy[/post]

[post=15785067]De Velde Provision for the Incapability of the Monarch[/post]*

[post=15785062]Aerts Judiciary Article[/post]

[post=15784972]Aerts Article for Impeachment and Justice of Goverment Officials Revision 1[/post]

[post=15785248]Galler Judiciary Article[/post]

[post=15786265]Brabant Proposal for the Fair Allotment of Rights to the Clergy, Revision 1[/post]

[post=15786340]Van Den Brucke Social Classes of Belgium[/post]

[post=15786150]Van Den Brucke Belgian Concession of Rights[/post]


* - Currently Seeking a Second

 

[SirkTheMonkey]

Belgian Citizenship Provision (V3): Yes, although in hindsight I would've liked a provision allowing the monarch to grant citizenship to deserving persons.
Joint Bill of Rights (V4): Yes. I see the view of the traditionalists amongst us who would perceive this as an attack on the old order but I see the text as being flexible enough to allow for a wide range of follow-ups within the Constitution or future legislation, be they of Conservative or Liberal values.

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

 

[Plutonium95]

Belgian Citizenship Provision: Nay
Joint Bill of Rights: Nay

We should not just give away Belgian citizenship to foreigners (Frenchmen) like that.

Monsieur, are you referring to the clause that allows naturalization for people who have lived and worked in the country for ten years? Shouldn't people who contribute to our society have a place in it?

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

 

[Dadarian]

Vanderhoof reenters the Convention

I apologize for the absence, I was buying out one of my competitors in Northern Flanders and it required my direct attention.

I present the following:

The Vanderhoof Article Regarding the Press and Slander

I. Slander is no longer a crime punishable by fines, jail or record
II. The Press cannot be sued for Slander

I vote for the following:

Belgian Citizenship: Aye
Joint Bill of Rights: Aye
Galler Article: Approve
Loewen Article: Aye

 

[Plutonium95]

Belgian Citizenship Provision (V3): Yes, although in hindsight I would've liked a provision allowing the monarch to grant citizenship to deserving persons.

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

That seems to be a fair point, a great contributor to our nation who is not yet a citizen should have a prestigious means of becoming one. Perhaps a piece of legislation could be proposed to that affect when the government starts running.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

 

[yourworstnightm]

Monsieur, are you referring to the clause that allows naturalization for people who have lived and worked in the country for ten years? Shouldn't people who contribute to our society have a place in it?

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

Our country is the Union of Flandern and Wallonia. It should be the country of the Flemish and Wallonian people.

 

[hoi2geek]

My votes:

-Belgian Citizenship Provision: AYE
-Joint Bill of Rights: NAY

-Jan-Aleksandr Ivanovich van Steinbeck-Antonov
Councillor of Antwerp

 

[Somberg]

Belgian Citizenship Provision: Aye
Joint Bill of Rights V4: Aye

~ Willem Loewen, Mayor of and Delegate from Antwerp

 

[Plutonium95]

Vanderhoof reenters the Convention

I apologize for the absence, I was buying out one of my competitors in Northern Flanders and it required my direct attention.

I present the following:



I vote for the following:

Belgian Citizenship: Aye
Joint Bill of Rights: Aye
Galler Article: Approve
Loewen Article: Aye

While I support people's rights to individual freedom I don't believe I could support a proposal such as this (and again it would be more fitting as legislation). If slander was not illegal, then business and political competitors could pay to have untrue things published about their opponents with no legal repercussions. If that were the case then the people would not be able to trust news sources. This would make it even harder to get accurate news out so that the people may remain informed on the affairs of the country.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

 

[ThunderHawk3]

I also wish to withdraw the du Sint-Niklaas Article (In Progress). I am puzzled as to why an in progress version of my draft has been included in the minutes, but now seek to rectify this nonetheless. If the clerk gives his blessing, I would also wish to amend my du Sint-Niklaas proposal in order to reflect the passing of articles before it is voted upon.MWO

Sure, go ahead.

There are still several proposals on the Master List with the appearance of obsolescence. Please take a moment to look over [post=15784883]The Master List, here,[/post] and withdraw any items that are no longer relevant or have been superseded.

The following proposals have been struck from the Master List at the request or their authors, or because they have already been or are being voted on:

Spoiler

[post=15768372]Daret Form of Government Proposal, as revised[/post], providing for a government of Belgium consisting of a King, an elected upper house and lower house, and a Court of Belgium, granted veto power to the prime minister, and naming Louis, Duke of Nemours as King of Belgium.

[post=15777438]Daret Proposal for the Selection of the Upper House[/post]

[post=15769679]Damseaux Military of Belgium Proposal, as revised[/post], creating and defining the Army and Navy Chief of Staff and the Chief of the General Staff and tasking the military with dissolving a government that breaks the constitution and heading the transitional government

[post=15772111]Velde Form of Government Proposal v4[/post], defining the government as consisting of the King, Upper House composed of nobles, and lower house composed of elected persons, and further creating the role of Prime Minister and granting various powers to the Prime Minister and King

[post=15767581]Du Sint-Niklaas Upper House Proposal (in progress)[/post], providing for a bicameral legislature in Belgium, restricting membership of the senate to those able to pay a fee and requiring ratification of these members by the heads of state and government

[post=15767959]Savarin Amendment to the Kings of the Belgians Proposal[/post], providing for the election and impeachment of the monarch

[post=15780597]Savarin Legislature of Belgium Plan, V2[/post]

[post=15781895]Brabrant Election Article[/post]

[post=15774728]Steinbeck-Antonov Nomination[/post] ((Incorporated into the Delcroix list of candidates))

[post=15768785]The Daret/Delcroix Joint Bill of Rights[/post] ((Updated version is presently being voted on))

[post=15767403]Aerts Judiciary Article, as revised[/post] ((Reintroduced version is currently being debated))

[post=15771472]Amended Daret/Delcroix Belgian Citizenship Proposal[/post] ((Updated version is currently being voted on))

[post=15770132]Aerts Article for Impeachment and Justice of Government officials[/post] ((Reintroduced version is currently being debated))

[post=15770569]De Velde Incapability of the Monarch Provision, as amended[/post] ((Reintroduced version is currently being debated))

[post=15772497]Delcroix List of Candidates for the Belgium Throne[/post] ((Revised version has already passed))

 

[Fingon888]

In response to the men who are against universal suffrage, I hold no great opinion. However I will tell you a story.

The year was 1812 and I was commanding a regiment of Fusiliers of the Line in the Grand Army. We were marching to Moscow and summerr had not yet ended. This was about a week before Borodino to give you an idea of the exact date. We were marching past a farm that the Russian Army had burned to the ground in order to deny us food. I saw a peasant family hiding in the burnt ruins of the farmhouse. I went towards the peasants to see if they were alright. Anyways, I struck up a conversation with the man of the family and he asked me if I was fighting for Napoleon. I answered yes and he thanked me. I asked why and he said by showing that two systems of government are failures. He said that Napoleon and his army proved that absolute monarchy, which he laboured and suffered under, and republics do not work. He said that Napoleon saved France from destruction and discord by freeing the populace from themselves.

I asked him how he knew such things and he said that his local Orthodox Priest taught him and most of the peasant men to read and write. He said that his priest would get newspapers and give them to the peasants and discuss with them issues in Russia and around the world. He said the reason he knew this was the priest treated him as an equal and taught him as a friend, not as a superior. In conclusion, if some Orthodox Priest could turn a Russian Serf into a man with a detailed opinion on republicanism and the French Revolution, why can't our Catholic Clergy do the same with the more educated Belgian people?

Belgian Citizenship: Aye
Joint Bill of Rights: Aye

 

[SirkTheMonkey]

I do not think my back can handle another sleep in one of the chairs here in the Hall so I must retire to my accommodations. May God be with you for our great ongoing work.

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

 

[Noco19]

Upon further review of the Loewen Parliament Proposal, I change my vote to NAY. Several concerns have been raised due to the universal suffrage aspect, and although I believe every man should be allowed to participate, I too fear the influence of uneducated voters. Should the clause allow only those who are literate to vote, I would change my opinion.

Belgian Citizenship: Aye
Joint Bill of Rights: Aye

- Bishop van Buskirk

 

[yourworstnightm]

In response to the men who are against universal suffrage, I hold no great opinion. However I will tell you a story.

The year was 1812 and I was commanding a regiment of Fusiliers of the Line in the Grand Army. We were marching to Moscow and summerr had not yet ended. This was about a week before Borodino to give you an idea of the exact date. We were marching past a farm that the Russian Army had burned to the ground in order to deny us food. I saw a peasant family hiding in the burnt ruins of the farmhouse. I went towards the peasants to see if they were alright. Anyways, I struck up a conversation with the man of the family and he asked me if I was fighting for Napoleon. I answered yes and he thanked me. I asked why and he said by showing that two systems of government are failures. He said that Napoleon and his army proved that absolute monarchy, which he laboured and suffered under, and republics do not work. He said that Napoleon saved France from destruction and discord by freeing the populace from themselves.

I asked him how he knew such things and he said that his local Orthodox Priest taught him and most of the peasant men to read and write. He said that his priest would get newspapers and give them to the peasants and discuss with them issues in Russia and around the world. He said the reason he knew this was the priest treated him as an equal and taught him as a friend, not as a superior. In conclusion, if some Orthodox Priest could turn a Russian Serf into a man with a detailed opinion on republicanism and the French Revolution, why can't our Catholic Clergy do the same with the more educated Belgian people?

Belgian Citizenship: Aye
Joint Bill of Rights: Aye

The French revolution was the most terrible disaster in human history. Commoners should not have a positive opinion on it.

 

[jeeshadow]

((One of the issues is that my Judicary proposal is that it isn't detailed enough. Not sure what all I should put in it, I checked the US Consitution to see what it said. Not very discriptive. It says the powers of the Judicary, and says that the power would be invested in a Supreme Court, and what ever other lesser courts were demed neccisary. We may want to make our Judicary article in our consitution that broad, and deal with the lesser courts in actual legislation))
Belgian Citizenship Provision: Yes
Joint Bill of Rights V4: Yes

 

[Fingon888]

The French revolution was the most terrible disaster in human history. Commoners should not have a positive opinion on it.

Did you listen to me at all, Monsieur? The commoner, of which group I will belong according to the good Bishop, had a negative opinion of the French Revolution.

 

[DensleyBlair]

Good evening, Messieurs.

Here are my votes:

Belgian Citizenship Provision: Aye, naturally
Joint Bill of Rights: Nay

I cannot support such hypocrisy. Are we to suppress revolutionary talk when our own nation is founded on such rebellion? Though I by no means wish to advocate destabilising our country, perhaps a less explicit means of ensuring such unsavoury texts as are described are not printed could be worked out?

I also wish to announce that I shall second Monsieur de Velde's Provision for the Incapability of the Monarch.

~Jean-François, Vicomte du Sint-Niklaas, MWO

 

[Thoctar]

((Sorry, having a hard time keeping up with these. Are we on the day where I can suggest the electoral system?))

Belgian Citizenship Provision: Yes
Joint Bill of Rights V4: Yes

 

[Plutonium95]

Good evening, Messieurs.

Here are my votes:

Belgian Citizenship Provision: Aye, naturally
Joint Bill of Rights: Nay

I cannot support such hypocrisy. Are we to suppress revolutionary talk when our own nation is founded on such rebellion? Though I by no means wish to advocate destabilising our country, perhaps a less explicit means of ensuring such unsavoury texts as are described are not printed could be worked out?

I also wish to announce that I shall second Monsieur de Velde's Provision for the Incapability of the Monarch.

~Jean-François, Vicomte du Sint-Niklaas, MWO

I understand that you would not want to incorporate such a clause ito the Bill of Rights, I did not wish to either, but it was a necessary part of compromise. The current form of the bill is, I think, vague enough about what "actively" trying to dismantle the nation means to allow the true limit of what can be published to be determined by laws passed when the government starts running. I can understand why you would not want to support it, but I hope you will.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

 

[Scrapknight]

In response to the men who are against universal suffrage, I hold no great opinion. However I will tell you a story.

The year was 1812 and I was commanding a regiment of Fusiliers of the Line in the Grand Army. We were marching to Moscow and summerr had not yet ended. This was about a week before Borodino to give you an idea of the exact date. We were marching past a farm that the Russian Army had burned to the ground in order to deny us food. I saw a peasant family hiding in the burnt ruins of the farmhouse. I went towards the peasants to see if they were alright. Anyways, I struck up a conversation with the man of the family and he asked me if I was fighting for Napoleon. I answered yes and he thanked me. I asked why and he said by showing that two systems of government are failures. He said that Napoleon and his army proved that absolute monarchy, which he laboured and suffered under, and republics do not work. He said that Napoleon saved France from destruction and discord by freeing the populace from themselves.

I asked him how he knew such things and he said that his local Orthodox Priest taught him and most of the peasant men to read and write. He said that his priest would get newspapers and give them to the peasants and discuss with them issues in Russia and around the world. He said the reason he knew this was the priest treated him as an equal and taught him as a friend, not as a superior. In conclusion, if some Orthodox Priest could turn a Russian Serf into a man with a detailed opinion on republicanism and the French Revolution, why can't our Catholic Clergy do the same with the more educated Belgian people?

Belgian Citizenship: Aye
Joint Bill of Rights: Aye

Good morning, gentlemen.

Once again, wise words from Monsieur Damseaux. You can like it or not, but all people have opinions, and they are worthy of being respected. I lived in poverty for years as a child. I had nothing and yet I made myself into what I am today. If I can do it, if this Russian peasant can do it, surely the people of Belgium can do it. They can make something of themselves through hard work and determination. And this is exactly the kind of service that the honorable Bishops can provide, as described above. As I stated last night, Jesus did not shun the common man, but instead lived and worked among them. Denying them their full rights is, in my estimation, simply un-Christian.

Also, while I am still rather worried about the overzealous use of clause V.a, I do not wish it to prevent it from blocking the most comprehensive bill of rights that we have on the table. We must stand firm against any sweeping use of this clause once we are in government. Again, to my conservative colleagues, please think. We have given you the monarchy when we wanted a republic. We have given you a hereditary monarchy when we wanted a king that could be impeached. We have given the king power when we wanted him to be a figurehead. We have an appointed Upper House. You have to give us something in return.

Joint Bill of Rights: Aye
Belgian Citizenship Proposal: Aye
((War stories are fun, aren't they? ))