Edge of Europe - A Belgian Interactive AAR

[viola]

Lord Van Den Brucke, I must ask for a clarification regarding your Social Classes of Belgium proposal:
Where would the priest of my church lie? He is not ordained as a member of the Catholic Church but he is not a man of means thanks to the small size and transitory nature of his flock in Antwerp. Would he be classified as a Commoner?

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

He is a Protestant, right?
Then I have to say this: this is a Catholic state and I think that only the official Church should receive statal privileges, therefore he would be a commoner under this bill.

But if you really think that it's necessary then I could expand the definition to "being ordained by any Christian Church".

- Baron Frederick Van Den Brucke

 

[Gen. Marshall]

Proposal for the Fair Allotment of Rights to the Clergy
Revision 1

I. All clergymen of the Catholic Church are entitled to the spreading of the Gospel of God without governmental hinderance.
a. This Article neither prohibits nor allows representatives of other religions to spread their religious ideology.

II. All clergymen of all officially recognized religions are entitled to exemption from any mandatory military service or any duties or charges incompatible with their role.

III. Any donations to the Catholic Church or its representatives are exempt from taxation.

IV. All clergymen of the Catholic Church are entitled to an alternate means of jurisdiction.
a. A legal Belgian court will determine whether or not any said clergyman is guilty of a crime and will determine a sentence.
b. The Pope will be notified of any conviction of any said clergyman.
c. The Pope reserves the right to convert the imposed sentence to an excommunication and banishment from Belgian soil.

V. All clergymen of the Catholic Church, holding office in Belgium, are entitled to the same basic rights of all Belgian citizens.

I hope this proposal is satisfactory.

 

[Plutonium95]

I have two points I wish to make, though I agree with everything else in the articles. For clause III. in the Belgian Citizenship proposal, doesn't clause I. a. i. Cover that well enough? If it does not, could the time listed in the III clause be extended to 5 years, to ensure that the squatters who stayed in the country due to the Dutch occupation in its later years are appropriately denied citizenship. As for the Joint Bill of Rights, does Clause II. need to be included? It seems that that issue is already covered by the more relevant Belgian Citizenship proposal.

~ Sébastien Delcroix, Bishop of Brabant

In my mind the Belgian Citizenship proposal was to determine who we would view as citizens now, whereas the Bill of Rights outlines it more for the future. The reason I included clause III was because I was talking to a delegate here ((davout's character Burke)) and he made some good points. Here is a quote of what he said.

Finally, I support the Citizenship Proposal subject to the amendment that all men of 21 years or older of foreign birth living within Belgium for a period of not less than 2 years prior to the commencement of the Constitution are entitled to become citizens of Belgium as of right. Otherwise, you are asking me to vote to approve a Constitution which will have the effect of denying me a vote as soon as it is passed. Belgium sits at the crossroads of Europe and there are many delegates here who were born outside of the new borders but nevertheless chose to live here, add to the common good of the community (including fighting for our liberty) and are desirous of contributing to Belgium's future prosperity.

I think it is a fair point. ((I'm not sure what you mean about squatters during the Dutch occupation, like their soldiers? What if enemy combatants are excluded?))

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

 

[Tapscott]

I suppose the point made by the Delegate Burke makes sense. However I maintain my request that the time asked is extended to five years. After all, we already ask those who are to immigrate here to live in Belgium for a total of ten years before being considered citizens, and two years does not sound like nearly long enough for my taste. Otherwise we could allow for Dutch opportunists, who only came to live in Belgium to take advantage of the volatile political situation, access to rights that they would have once opposed.

~ Sébastien Delcroix, Bishop of Brabant

 

[Plutonium95]

I hope this proposal is satisfactory.

This bill is much more agreeable, though I wonder if it is really relevant to put into the constitution when it affects such a small group. Is being required to serve as a military chaplain considered to be "incompatible with their role"? Because as I have said, no conscripted man necessarily wants to fight, but it is a sacrifice they make. People are hurt when they leave, just as when a priest does, but they cannot be replaced to their family as a priest can. Also the right to peacefully try to spread religion is included in the right to Freedom of religion and worship, why must it be in this bill?

I suppose the point made by the Delegate Burke makes sense. However I maintain my request that the time asked is extended to five years. After all, we already ask those who are to immigrate here to live in Belgium for a total of ten years before being considered citizens, and two years does not sound like nearly long enough for my taste. Otherwise we could allow for Dutch opportunists, who only came to live in Belgium to take advantage of the volatile political situation, access to rights that they would have once opposed.

~ Sébastien Delcroix, Bishop of Brabant

I suppose five years is agreeable, I will revise the proposal.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

 

[SirkTheMonkey]

He is a Protestant, right?
Then I have to say this: this is a Catholic state and I think that only the official Church should receive statal privileges, therefore he would be a commoner under this bill.

But if you really think that it's necessary then I could expand the definition to "being ordained by any Christian Church".

- Baron Frederick Van Den Brucke

I would not impose myself or my faith to that level my Lord. I just find it distasteful for the shephard of my flock to be called a Commoner. Perhaps a provision in the bourgeois section allowing for men ordained in other recognised Christian churches to count as a member of that strata for the purposes of your proposed rules.

I hope this proposal is satisfactory.

Mr van Brabant, I find it a bizarre world when those on the right are more amenable to religious plurality than those who call themselves Liberal.

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

 

[Plutonium95]

Belgian Citizenship V3

I. To be a citizen of the Belgian nation, a person must be at least one of the following things:
a. Born in the country of Belgium
i. This definition includes those born in the regions of Wallonia and Flanders before the official formation of the Belgian nation
ii. Children of foreign dignitaries, and children of wartime enemy soldiers, do not receive citizenship from their birth in Belgium
b. Have lived in Belgium for a minimum of ten years
i. This definition requires the applier to have been working in Belgium for a minimum of 6 years, if the applier is an adult male
c. Have a parent who holds Belgian citizenship
i. This definition does not apply to those who have been found guilty, or are in the process of being charged with, a crime
ii. The parent of Belgian citizenship must not have been found guilty of any crime for this clause to be enacted

II. Belgian citizenship confers upon its holder the right to all rights held by Belgian citizens, as well as all responsibilities that also are held by Belgian citizens

III. All men of 21 years or older of foreign birth living within Belgium for a period of not less than five years prior to the commencement of the Constitution are entitled to become citizens of Belgium as of right.

I ask that this revised proposal be seconded.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

 

[DensleyBlair]

I second the Belgian Citizenship article.

~Jean-François, Vicomte du Sint-Niklaas, MWO

 

[Tapscott]

I second the Joint Daret-Delcroix Belgian Citizen Proposal - Third Version.

~ Sébastien Delcroix, Bishop of Brabant

((You forgot to put the amount of years in Clause III.))

 

[viola]

I would not impose myself or my faith to that level my Lord. I just find it distasteful for the shephard of my flock to be called a Commoner. Perhaps a provision in the bourgeois section allowing for men ordained in other recognised Christian churches to count as a member of that strata for the purposes of your proposed rules.

Mr van Brabant, I find it a bizarre world when those on the right are more amenable to religious plurality than those who call themselves Liberal.

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

This is a sound suggestion, I will apply these changes immediately.

Social Classes of Belgium

I. Every social class shall be granted their own codes of law and indisputable rights, reflecting the different roles they have in society.
a. The state of Belgium recognizes four social classes: The Clergy, the Nobility, the Great Bourgeoisie and the Commoners. Each of them shall be subjected to a different code of law.

II. Is considered a clergyman anyone who has been ordained as a member of the Catholic Church.

III. Is considered a noble anyone who has not been ordained as a member of the Catholic Church, and possesses an aristocratic title recognized by the state of Belgium.

IV. Is considered a grand bourgeois anyone who has not been ordained as a member of the Catholic Church neither possesses an aristocratic title recognized by the state of Belgium, but can afford to pay a high amount of taxes or is landed.
a. Any person, ordained as member of a recognized Christian church, different from the Catholic Church, will be considered part of the Great Bourgeoisie and will be subjected to its code of law.

V. Is considered a commoner anyone who doesn't belong to the previous classes.

I hope that you will find this change satisfying.

- Baron Frederick Van Den Brucke

 

[Plutonium95]

I second the Joint Daret-Delcroix Belgian Citizen Proposal - Third Version.

~ Sébastien Delcroix, Bishop of Brabant

((You forgot to put the amount of years in Clause III.))

((Thanks, fixed.))

 

[ThunderHawk3]

I second the Belgian Citizen Revised Article and the Joint Bill of Rights V4 Article.

I second the Belgian Citizenship article.

~Jean-François, Vicomte du Sint-Niklaas, MWO

I second the Joint Daret-Delcroix Belgian Citizen Proposal - Third Version

So be it.

Both proposals will be put to a vote momentarily. The Delcroix List of Candidates and Daret Ranked Vote item are set to conclude their voting shortly, so the new votes will open as soon as I close the old votes.

 

[Harpsichord]

I hope this proposal is satisfactory.

I will oppose any such attempt to fill our constitution with such articles.

 

[Noco19]

Article III is absurd, frankly. What would you think if an unscrupulous, fabulously wealthy businessman had a convenient "change of heart" and joined the clergy for tax purposes? Not only is there potential for such abuse but it shatters the idea of equality before the law. As all men are equal before God, all are equal before the law, including tax law. I am no supporter of high taxes, infringing on personal freedom and the advancement out of squalor as they are, but do support a tax regime that affects all citizens to some degree, for the sake of fairness. If I proposed an article eliminating taxes on merchants, for example, it would be good for me, but it would not be fair. I follow the same logic here.

Are you not familiar with the process of joining the Catholic Church? A businessman, as you speculate, joining the clergy for tax breaks would be a long and difficult process of education, forfeiting his already established wealth, and by the end, would only harm his finances more so than just accepting his taxation.

Article IV also violates equality before the law. I do not frankly understand the purpose of such a tribunal, but it must not be made to have any legal weight. If the church wants a tribunal, it may hold one - on private grounds, with private money, and neither dispensing nor recommending any form of vigilante justice other than what is strictly within the Church's power to do, such as removing a man from his clerical office. The clergy are valuable citizens of Belgium. Thus, they are just like everyone else.

As was stated, these tribunals would only offer the spiritual sentencing upon the offending clergymen, while the official Belgian courts would be the precedent force in temporal matters.

Regarding van Brabant's revised proposal deserves some degree of merit, although I stand by the exemption of clergy taxes. We are a small group, with an even smaller amount of wealth. Perhaps we could compromise, and allow a reduced percentage for taxes levied against their person, in order to provide subsistence.

- Bishop van Buskirk

 

[SirkTheMonkey]

I hope that you will find this change satisfying.
- Baron Frederick Van Den Brucke

Thank you my Lord. I and those of non-Catholic faiths will thank you should your proposal be ratified.

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

 

[ThunderHawk3]

Voting on the [post=15777379]Ranked Vote For the Monarchy Proposal[/post] and the [post=15779395]Delcroix List of Candidates for the Belgian Throne, as amended[/post] has ended. Both have passed with comfortable majorities.

Player Actions Needed:
In addition to the outstanding vote on the [post=15784461]Loewen Parliament Proposal - Ninth Revision[/post] and the request for unanimous consent for the [post=15781403]Galler Legislative Language Article[/post]:

The [post=15786315]Belgian Citizenship Provision V3[/post] and the [post=15786225]Joint Bill of Rights V4[/post] are now being voted on.

Sample Ballot:

Loewen Parliament Proposal: Yes/No/Abstain
Belgian Citizenship Provision: Yes/No/Abstain
Joint Bill of Rights V4: Yes/No/Abstain

Sample Objection:

I object to the Galler Legislative Language Article.

If you do not object, then you do not have to say anything.

Voting on these items will close two days from now, at 9:00 AM PST 7/16/13 (5 PM GMT, or thereabouts).

 

[Plutonium95]

Belgian Citizenship Provision: Yes
Joint Bill of Rights V4: Yes

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

 

[viola]

Belgian Citizenship Provision: Yes
Joint Bill of Rights: No

Once again I will state the obvious: law shouldn't be equal for everyone, some people are just more important than other.

- Baron Frederick Van Den Brucke

 

[Harpsichord]

Belgian Citizenship Provision: Yes
Joint Bill of Rights V4: Yes

 

[yourworstnightm]

Belgian Citizenship Provision: Nay
Joint Bill of Rights: Nay

We should not just give away Belgian citizenship to foreigners (Frenchmen) like that.