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Noco19

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Would you consent to letting the clergy be drafted, if they are put in a non combat role to serve as military chaplains?

I am hesitant to accept anything which would seek to enforce the drafting of clergymen. We run spiritual gatherings, charity missions, and provide at times, and I would not wish to force these programs to cease. What would become of the sick and needy when we leave? What would become of the orphans we save from the streets? Where would the people, no doubt stricken with sorrow for their departed husbands or sons, turn to for moral guidance?

As for the concerns of Delegate Willems-Hopegood, that may be in order, if my proposal would be better received by our more secular opponents and the non-Catholic community.

- Bishop van Buskirk
 

Plutonium95

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I am hesitant to accept anything which would seek to enforce the drafting of clergymen. We run spiritual gatherings, charity missions, and provide at times, and I would not wish to force these programs to cease. What would become of the sick and needy when we leave? What would become of the orphans we save from the streets? Where would the people, no doubt stricken with sorrow for their departed husbands or sons, turn to for moral guidance?

- Bishop van Buskirk

Everyone who is eligible for conscription fulfills certain needs for his community, maybe he is the blacksmith, the carpenter, the dairy farmer, what have you. Are you suggesting the the Clergy is the most critical group in all of society, that towns would fall apart without you, but no one else eligible for conscription is so important? Surely this is not what you are saying?

If I were conscripted my company company would grind to a halt, I employ thousands of workers, but without me they would lose their jobs and I do not wish to see them fired. What would become of their families if they were not receiving a paycheck? Would they be able to afford to feed their children? Where would they look for work if other industrialist happen to get drafted? I say no business owner should be subject to the draft. Wait, no that wouldn't happen, I would choose someone to run my company in my stead. There are several monks and traveling priests that could fill the role of conscripted clergy, and to act like they are irreplaceable is dishonest.

And besides, don't the men fighting in the war need spiritual comfort, someone to make confessions to? As a catholic nation Belgium would just be ensuring it's soldiers can behave as true Catholics while at war by conscripting military chaplains

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret
 

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I am hesitant to accept anything which would seek to enforce the drafting of clergymen. We run spiritual gatherings, charity missions, and provide at times, and I would not wish to force these programs to cease. What would become of the sick and needy when we leave? What would become of the orphans we save from the streets? Where would the people, no doubt stricken with sorrow for their departed husbands or sons, turn to for moral guidance?

As for the concerns of Delegate Willems-Hopegood, that may be in order, if my proposal would be better received by our more secular opponents and the non-Catholic community.

- Bishop van Buskirk

I second the sentiments of Bishop van Buskirk. Warfare is not the realm of the Clergy, Catholic or not. The role of the Clergy is one of peace and spiritual administration, and to rip these men away from their flocks can result in no good. If some men of the Cloth wish to volunteer for military, then they are welcome to, but as it stands, no priest should be forced away from his parish to experience the horrors of warfare.

~ Sébastien Delcroix, Bishop of Brabant
 

Plutonium95

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I second the sentiments of Bishop van Buskirk. Warfare is not the realm of the Clergy, Catholic or not. The role of the Clergy is one of peace and spiritual administration, and to rip these men away from their flocks can result in no good. If some men of the Cloth wish to volunteer for military, then they are welcome to, but as it stands, no priest should be forced away from his parish to experience the horrors of warfare.

~ Sébastien Delcroix, Bishop of Brabant

But the life of a simple farmer or blacksmith is not so important, correct. Surely to be a blacksmith or craftsmen is to wish to surround oneself with war, and certainly no one in a community relies on such people. They should, of course, not get a choice in whether they wish to join the army, there is no problem with forcing them away from their business, their family, and the people who rely on them. I mean what could happen when at war, they get shot and die, oh well they were just peasants, as long as priests can't be forced to comfort such men when at war we have our priories straight.

*Daret starts muttering to a nearby delegate and though it is quiet the words "self-righteous" and "pricks" can be heard*

Gentlemen, I must leave these halls, I shall return tomorrow, good night.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret
 

Noco19

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Everyone who is eligible for conscription fulfills certain needs for his community, maybe he is the blacksmith, the carpenter, the dairy farmer, what have you. Are you suggesting the the Clergy is the most critical group in all of society, that towns would fall apart without you, but no one else eligible for conscription is so important? Surely this is not what you are saying?

If I were conscripted my company company would grind to a halt, I employ thousands of workers, but without me they would lose their jobs and I do not wish to see them fired. What would become of their families if they were not receiving a paycheck? Would they be able to afford to feed their children? Where would they look for work if other industrialist happen to get drafted? I say no business owner should be subject to the draft. Wait, no that wouldn't happen, I would choose someone to run my company in my stead. There are several monks and traveling priests that could fill the role of conscripted clergy, and to act like they are irreplaceable is dishonest.

And besides, don't the men fighting in the war need spiritual comfort, someone to make confessions to? As a catholic nation Belgium would just be ensuring it's soldiers can behave as true Catholics while at war by conscripting military chaplains

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

In your scenario Delegate Daret, you assume thousands of workers would be out of jobs since you were drafted, but would not your workers take part in this conscription as well? If we are resorting to drafting men of the cloth, admittedly an older demographic, if you can just use myself as an example, than surely the much-needed and able workers have already departed as well. The people we care for are those without strength, womenfolk, those who are elderly, or are too young to fend for themselves; The ones who are left behind.

I agree that soldiers need moral guidance as well, which is why any clergymen who feels it necessary can volunteer on his own volition.

Frans watches as Daret leaves half-way through, rambling

- Bishop van Buskirk
 

Marschalk

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Loewen Parliament Proposal - Ninth Revision: No

I do not support this proposal for two reasons. The first one I have mentioned before: I strongly oppose the idea, that the Prime Minister should in any way influence UH appointments. The second one is a very important one too. Universal male suffrage will lead us to anarchy and rule of demagogues. There should be certain restrictions based on education and property.


I am against this Article for Impeachment and Justice of Goverment officals Revesion proposal. The King cannot be impeached, this is absurd. Especially in a such a simple way, like an ordinary Senator.

I will support the initiative of Bishop Van Buskirk. The priests serve out nation by protecting its moral health. They have their own armies to battle with - armies of human sins. Ordinary priests lead a very hard life, receiving meagre wages (despite all insinuations of Monsieur Daret, who keeps claiming that our clergymen are rich!). They have to constanty visit such grim places as jails, hospitals, madhouses. Charity is their realm as well. And we should not forget, that we are a Roman Catholic state, and that these priests are the servants of God. We should show them some respect, and remember how much they do for us. They should not be conscripted and should receive certain tax exemptions, that is the least we can do.

- Charles, Prince de Ligne
 
Last edited:

atomicsoda

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I will present the Galler Judiciary Article for discussion. I have included many of the fine ideas presented by M. Aerts in my proposal as his proposal was well thought out. I have made some changes to his ideas as well as expanded an a number of them.

A. Structure of the Judiciary
1. The Supreme Court of Belgium is the highest court with supreme and final authority on all questions of Belgium Law including interpretation of the Constitution.
2. Belgium shall be divided into 3 Judicial Circuits - Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels.
3. Additional Circuits may be created by legislation if needed, but the three Circuits created here can not be removed.

B. Supreme Court
1. The Supreme Court shall be made up of 7 Justices of which one shall be Chief Justice.
2. Justices shall be appointed for life by the Prime Minister subject to approval by majority vote in the Senate.
3. The Supreme Court is the highest court of appeal and can choose to hear cases appealed from the respective Circuit Court of Appeals. It can also choose to hear any case that it believes requires an urgent hearing in its sole discretion.
4. Supreme Court Justices may only be removed from office upon a conviction of a felony.

C. Judicial Circuits
1. Each Circuit shall have Trial Courts and a Circuit Court of Appeal.
2. All Cases are to be tried in a Trial Court.
3. After a verdict is rendered in a Trial Court, a right of appeal to the Circuit Court of Appeal is available.
4. After judgment in the Court of Appeal is rendered an appeal may be filed to the Supreme Court which may choose to hear it in its sole discretion.

D. Trial Courts
1. The Trial Courts shall consist of one Judge for each Trial Court established.
2. Trial Court Judges shall be appointed by the Prime Minister for 10 year terms. There is no limit on the number of terms served.
3. Trial Court Judges may be removed by a 2/3 vote in the Senate upon a showing they are unfit for office.

E. Circuit Court of Appeals
1. The Court of Appeals shall consist of 5 Appeal Judges in each Circuit.
2. Appeal Judges shall be appointed for 15 year terms by the Prime Minister subject to approval by majority vote in the Senate. There is no limit on the number of terms served.
3. Appeal Judges may be removed by a 2/3 vote in the Senate upon a showing they are unfit for office.

F. Powers of the Judiciary
1. The Judiciary has the sole power to determine all questions of Belgium Law including interpretation of the Constitution.
2. The Courts of the Judiciary shall have the right to declare any laws of Belgium, actions of the legislative branch or orders of the executive branch, including the Monarch, to be without force if it rules that such law, action or order violates the Constitution of Belgium.
3. The Military and Police of Belgium are required to uphold the rulings of the Courts of Belgium.
 
Last edited:

Marschalk

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Judges should not be appointed by the Prime Minister, who is the political leader of the country. It ruins the checks and balances system. Do we need political judges and political trials? In most constitutional monarchies judges are appointed by the Head of State, and we should chose the same option.

- Charles, Prince de Ligne
 

atomicsoda

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Judges should not be appointed by the Prime Minister, who is the political leader of the country. It ruins the checks and balances system. Do we need political judges and political trials? In most constitutional monarchies judges are appointed by the Head of State, and we should chose the same option.

- Charles, Prince de Ligne

That is why the Senate must approve the appointments to the higher courts. I can add in approval of the Monarch instead or in addition. I would also be open to having the Monarch appoint with Senate approval. It depends on the views of the delegates.
 
Last edited:

Marschalk

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The last variant (the King appoints and the Senate approves) is a better option, I think. The appointment of the judges should be as apolitical as possible.

- Charles, Prince de Ligne
 

DensleyBlair

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Löwen Parliament Proposal: Nay

Universal suffrage? As many have said, surely teaching our lower classes to read would benefit them if they are to vote? Would we really want the illiterate masses electing our government? All one would have to do is spew enough hyperbole and you would be elected.

I also wish to withdraw the du Sint-Niklaas Article (In Progress). I am puzzled as to why an in progress version of my draft has been included in the minutes, but now seek to rectify this nonetheless. If the clerk gives his blessing, I would also wish to amend my du Sint-Niklaas proposal in order to reflect the passing of articles before it is voted upon.

~Jean-François, Vicomte du Sint-Niklaas, MWO
 

atomicsoda

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Löwen Parliament Proposal: Nay

Universal suffrage? As many have said, surely teaching our lower classes to read would benefit them if they are to vote? Would we really want the illiterate masses electing our government? All one would have to do is spew enough hyperbole and you would be elected.


~Jean-François, Vicomte du Sint-Niklaas, MWO

It seems by your comments and others voting no, that universal sufferage is causing you to oppose the Proposal. I am surprised because this issue was not raised earlier as I believe it was in all 9 revisions.

I would be willing to support a compromise of universal weighted voting as has been proposed by others if that would increase support for this excellent proposal. I can not speak for M. Loewen and other liberals but I hope they would also be willing to compromise to pass this excellent article.
 

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Loewen Executive Proposal: Aye

I would also like to withdraw the Savarin Amendment to the King of the Belgians Proposal and the Savarin Legislature of Belgium Plan. The Armed Forces of Belgium article shall, for now, remain on the table.

Gentlemen, I apologize for my absence. I know that it is late, so I must return in the morning, but first I must look over the minutes.

Monseiur Loewen, thank you for taking my input into consideration. I truly must commend you and your ability to compromise. All I can add is that, after some discussion with Monseiur Van Brabant, we took a liking to having the Lower House be the "House of Delegates" and the members being Delegates. I am not particularly fond of the name "Chamber of Deputies," as it sounds rather subservient in nature, but substantively your proposal is clearly the way forward. Fundamentally, do not listen to those who ask the restriction of universal suffrage. We have given them much, and yet all they do is ask for more. We must remain firm. Our revolution occurred in large part because of treacherous Dutch attempts to deny us our voting rights. Let us not fall into the same tyranny by implementing any restrictions on suffrage. Equal suffrage for all, I say!

Monseiur Daret, your Bill of Rights is still an excellent document in all respects but one. I must say that clause V.a, as written, is simply too rife with potential for abuse as written. An unscrupulous government would surely find ways to misuse this provision, and that is a check that I feel both the liberals and monarchists can support. I would either strike said article entirely or enumerate the most specific threats as below:

V.a Government censorship of the press may only occur upon the issuance of a warrant, at the request of the [lower house] by a majority vote and approval by the Supreme Court, and only in the following cases:
- Speech promoting the dissolution of the Belgian state into separate states or the secession of any part of the Belgium state
- Speech advocating the annexation of Belgium or parts of Belgium by any foreign power
- Speech advocating the persecution of any ethnic, national or religious minority within Belgium

Of the judicial proposals currently on the floor, I like the looks of M. Galler's. I had my own proposal but had lost my notes ((the post updater did not save it and it didn't post right the first time,)) so I must submit it in the morning. In the meantime, while the Galler proposal could be made more comprehensive, that can be easily fixed and I like the basic proposals in the document. I think that Senatorial review is more than enough for higher court appointments, however. Both the executive and legislature are already involved deeply in the process as is, and allowing the King control over appointments is only going to stuff the courts with men loyal to the King. Justice is blind, gentlemen. No one - not the clergy, not the aristocracy, not the king, no one - must be above the law.

I whole-heartedly improve of the intent of Monseiur Aerts' act, but cannot back its wording. I agree that no official shall be above the law, and having government officials step down while implicated in a trial is a wise move. Be that as it may, the Executive Article that has passed already contains conflicting information regarding the removal of Prime Minister and King, and this article must be revised accordingly. A different mechanism to impeach the King is certainly workable, but it must agree with our agreed-upon constitution. I shall discuss it more tomorrow.

Finally, I must turn my attention to the proposal of Bishop van Buskirk. All clauses therein except the last, which is of course implicit in the nature of any Bill of Rights, are totally unacceptable.

Article I is either already guaranteed under the mandate of freedom of religion in the Bill of Rights or infringing upon it, depending on whether the Gospel is preached peacefully or, shall we say, aggressively. As you are an honorable man, I will assume the former. That being the case, such a mandate is superfluous. If were were to entertain the idea that it is the latter, then that would infringe on the freedom of others to practice religions of their choice. We personally may be Catholics, monseiur, but there are Protestants and Jews among the Belgian people as well. They are as much entitled to freedom of religion as anyone, and preventing potentially unscrupulous forces from using dishonorable means to "spread the gospel" to them must be a right reserved by the state.

I will return to Article II in a moment.

Article III is absurd, frankly. What would you think if an unscrupulous, fabulously wealthy businessman had a convenient "change of heart" and joined the clergy for tax purposes? Not only is there potential for such abuse but it shatters the idea of equality before the law. As all men are equal before God, all are equal before the law, including tax law. I am no supporter of high taxes, infringing on personal freedom and the advancement out of squalor as they are, but do support a tax regime that affects all citizens to some degree, for the sake of fairness. If I proposed an article eliminating taxes on merchants, for example, it would be good for me, but it would not be fair. I follow the same logic here.

Article IV also violates equality before the law. I do not frankly understand the purpose of such a tribunal, but it must not be made to have any legal weight. If the church wants a tribunal, it may hold one - on private grounds, with private money, and neither dispensing nor recommending any form of vigilante justice other than what is strictly within the Church's power to do, such as removing a man from his clerical office. The clergy are valuable citizens of Belgium. Thus, they are just like everyone else.

Finally, with regards to Article II, I will simply respond by telling a story.

Two years ago, I was a sergeant in the revolutionary forces. (I would be a captain by the war's end, but that was not the case yet.) We had met the Dutch in a pitched battle about a day's march south of Hainaut. We were marching back to camp to tend to the wounded, when I saw a man under a friend's command being taken to a medical tent. I had seen him around camp before - he looked old enough to be my father and seemed to be badly wounded. Curious, I walked into the medical tent to speak to him. The doctors said he would be dead in an hour and there was little they could do. The old man asked if I was a priest. I shook my head and turned to leave, assuming he wanted one, when he motioned me to stay. He told me that his name was Gunther - a German immigrant, I believe - and he was from a village in East Flanders called Bruhl that was home to a little over one hundred people, including fifty-two men. When he heard that the revolution came, he and every other man in his village had joined up. He said that his country meant enough to him that he would take the risk of signing himself and his village off to doom if it meant he could see his homeland be free. He told me how he prayed that his village could soon return home to build a better life once we had our freedom.

He sighed and told me he was the last one from his village left. I didn't know what to say.

The doctors came back in with a chaplain to give the man his last rites. I left to give them their privacy. It was only the next day I learned that, miraculously, he had survived the night. The shrapnel had not moved in towards his heart but stopped short, allowing the doctors to remove it. The surgeons got him walking in two weeks and he was discharged to go home to Bruhl. For lack of a better word, he was saved by the grace of God.

Why did I tell you all this? If Gunther can sacrifice his entire village, his entire way of life, for the cause of our great nation, must not every man do his part? We do not ask of the clergy to enter combat. We ask them to give as all other Belgian men must do - the gift of their service, valuable as any other. Would a man of God ask for any less than the ability to serve those who need it most? War tears towns apart. Everyone is hurt, and it is the only honorable thing to do to have everyone serve to try to end the pain as quickly as possible. I know that their roles are crucial, but can it be said that any other man in the village is less crucial? Is that a Christian way to live? Bishop, I have seen my friends torn apart by artillery fire and I have heard men howl into the night to be put out of their misery. Do you think anyone wants that as their lot in life? I could have stayed in Orleans after university as a successful businessman with a wonderful lady-friend and more material wealth than I could have ever dreamed of as a boy. Instead, I chose not to abandon my country and my countrymen in their hour of need. I know you claim that you are needed at home. So are so many good men who died, and we are not even asking you to risk your lives as they had. Did Jesus serve the needy from far away? No, he mingled with them, lived with them, and fought for them. He served by example. All we ask is that the clergymen of Belgium do the same.

I must now retire for the evening. Good night, gentlemen.

Savarin walks out of the convention hall, exhausted and visibly shaking from lack of sleep.
 
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hoi2geek

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Loewen Parliament Proposal: NAY

This proposal is utterly useless. The proposal set by Van der Hoef (Vanderhoof), on the other hand, is a far superior system for Belgium (My proposal for an Estates-General is also good too).

-Jan-Aleksandr Ivanovich van Steinbeck-Antonov
Councillor of Antwerp
 

viola

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Loewen Parliament Proposal: No, no and no!

The proposal to give supreme power to a cat was far more reasonable than universal suffrage, for God's sake!



Loewen Parliament Proposal: Aye
Loewen Parliament Proposal: Aye

- Bishop van Buskirk
Monsieur Damseaux, Reverend van Buskirk, I ask you to think about your votes!

Universal suffrage is pure madness! This bill would cause mob rule and anarchy as the simpleton, illiterate peasants shall be tricked and coerced to vote for Jacobin demagogues, enemies of the crown and atheists who seek the destruction of the mother Church!
The right to vote bear such great powers and consequences that only those who have an education and a high social status can be trusted to vote!

There must be limitations based on wealth and social status!

- Baron Frederick Van Den Brucke
 
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Gen. Marshall

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Loewen Parliament Proposal: Aye

Bishop Van Buskirk, indeed there should be some special rights for the clergy, but I think your proposal gives too many rights, and thereby hampers the functioning of the government and the rule of law. I would like to propose this alternative proposal:

Proposal for the Fair Allotment of Rights to the Clergy

I. All clergymen of the Catholic Church are entitled to the spreading of the Gospel of God without governmental hinderance.

II. All clergymen of the Catholic Church are entitled to exemption from any mandatory military service or any duties or charges incompatible with their role.

III. Any donations to the Catholic Church or its representatives are exempt from taxation.

IV. All clergymen of the Catholic Church are entitled to the same basic rights of all Belgian citizens

- Maximiliaan van Brabant, Delegate of Antwerp
 

DensleyBlair

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Monsieur van Brabant's article is a good compromise. I wholly support it.

~Jean-François, Vicomte du Sint-Niklaas, MWO