Edge of Europe - A Belgian Interactive AAR

[atomicsoda]

Bishop van Bushkirk,

I can support most of your proposal except the exemption of clergy from taxation levied upon their person. I support an exemption for the Church from taxation on their properties.

 

[Noco19]

Delegate Daret, the clergy serve as the people's primary link with God and his holy Catholic Church. While most men serve their country by warfare, we few stay behind and offer prayer, comfort, and charity. The suggestion that priests would be obligated into military service is quite baffling.

Taxation on clergymen, despite the moral implications, would be both fruitless for the government and detrimental for particular man. What little we receive is contributed to the Church and the Community, not to mention being derived from donations. It has been a historical right of the clergy to be allowed such exemptions for their very survival, and the triviality of gaining little for much fuss

As for your remark over my first clause, I am shocked that you would even imply that I, a man of God, would attempt to abuse my rights in order to perpetrate an illegal act in the name of our Lord and Savior. What evil acts I could commit through speech is unknown to me, and hopefully to the rest of the convention.

- Bishop van Buskirk

 

[jeeshadow]

I also repropose this article:

Article for Impeachment and Justice of Goverment officals Revesion 1
-Any offical of the govenment of Belgium can be impeached, and of any branch
-This requires a majority vote of the lower house
-If the Prime Minister is impeached, this is not a vote of no confidence. The rulling party will just put in another PM
-For further clarification on who can be impeached, any member of the Parliment or Senate, Monarch, Prime Minister, any Military Commander, Prime Minister
-Any member of the Judicary must be impeached by the Supreme Court. If a member of the Supreme court needs to be impeached, the rest of the supreme court shall have impeachment power
-All members of Government are subject to the laws of Belgium. They are not to be given any favor by the law. The Monarch is also subject to the same laws
-If a member of the Government is arrested, he has to temporarly step down. If he is convicted, he must steep down perminitly. If he is found not guilty, he can resume his post

 

[Davout]

I vote Loewen Parliament Proposal (aka Loewen's 9th) Yes.

 

[Fingon888]

Monsieur Aerts, you cannot be serious. Impeaching the monarch, what kind of insanity is this?

 

[atomicsoda]

I also repropose this article:

I oppose this article. The Loewen proposal already allows any Deputy or Senator to be removed upon conviction of a Felony. The Merede Executive Article deals with removal of the Monarch or PM.

Giving a mere majority of the lower house the right to impeach any Senator means the ruling party can remove any Senator they want.

 

[jeeshadow]

Monsieur Aerts, you cannot be serious. Impeaching the monarch, what kind of insanity is this?

It is a legal check, in case they are insane, or do really stupid things.

 

[Noco19]

I oppose this article. The Loewen proposal already allows any Deputy or Senator to be removed upon conviction of a Felony. The Merede Executive Article deals with removal of the Monarch or PM.

Giving a mere majority of the lower house the right to impeach any Senator means the ruling party can remove any Senator they want.

Wise words from Delegate Galler.

- Bishop van Buskirk

 

[Plutonium95]

Delegate Daret, the clergy serve as the people's primary link with God and his holy Catholic Church. While most men serve their country by warfare, we few stay behind and offer prayer, comfort, and charity. The suggestion that priests would be obligated into military service is quite baffling.

Taxation on clergymen, despite the moral implications, would be both fruitless for the government and detrimental for particular man. What little we receive is contributed to the Church and the Community, not to mention being derived from donations. It has been a historical right of the clergy to be allowed such exemptions for their very survival, and the triviality of gaining little for much fuss

As for your remark over my first clause, I am shocked that you would even imply that I, a man of God, would attempt to abuse my rights in order to perpetrate an illegal act in the name of our Lord and Savior. What evil acts I could commit through speech is unknown to me, and hopefully to the rest of the convention.

- Bishop van Buskirk

I do not think that you would do anything illegal bishop, but there are many types of priest, not all of them are as gentle as you are. I simply fear that completely removing the ability for government intervention is too dangerous. The freedom of religion and worship section of the Bill of Rights would already guarantee you the right to seek converts by peaceful means.

As far as serving the military and paying taxes I am simply pointing out that these are the sacrifices every other man makes for his rights, why is the clergy to get the rights without the sacrifice? Serving as messenger to God is only relevant to Catholics, not all the people of Belgium. The clergy serves as a Catholic's (such as myself) primary link to God, not all people's. I doubt a Protestant who has been conscripted into the military would find comfort that catholic priests are staying behind to offer prayer. I would agree with Monsieur Galler that the church may be exempt form taxation on their properties, but I have seen several opulently dressed bishops at this convention alone, clearly not all of the clergy's personal money is going to helping to poor, and as such, taxes can be paid.

I do not accept historical rights as having any meaning when we sit here this week forging a new nation, that has do much potential, I won't have them hold us back simply because it is the way our father's did things.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

 

[jeeshadow]

Part on Impeachment of Monarch is gone.

 

[atomicsoda]

Part on Impeachment of Monarch is gone.

The Merede Executive proposal which has passed and is part of the Constitution already includes these clauses re the Monarch and PM

7. The King may be required to abdicate the throne in favor of his immediate successor, contingent upon a two-thirds majority of the legislature voting in favor of his abdication. This vote is not subject to royal veto.

5. The Prime Minister may be removed from office and his Cabinet dissolved, contingent upon a majority of the Belgian legislature voting in favor of his removal. This vote is not subject to royal veto.

 

[jeeshadow]

The Merede Executive proposal which has passed and is part of the Constitution already includes these clauses re the Monarch and PM

That is a vote of no confidence. This does not disolve the cabanit, just removes the PM.

 

[Tapscott]

Loewen Parliament Proposal: Nay - Universal male suffrage? Surely it would do to ensure that the men of this nation can read and write before going to them with propaganda!

I still support the joint bills proposed by Monsieur Daret.

~ Sébastien Delcroix, Bishop of Brabant

((Damn you disease! I hate being bed-ridden!))

 

[Noco19]

Delegate Daret, regardless of your opinion, we must maintain certain traditions of the past, including Catholicism, for we are such a nation. Our people fought against the Protestants in order for their religion to be recognized as it's proper official status. I do not seek to forbid Protestant clergymen, or whatever they seek to name themselves, from proposing similar rights. Should they deem themselves fit to also receive such rights, by all means, I shall hear it.

Your insistence that I serve Belgium any less because I choose God over the sword is saddening to say the least. Not all men of this world are born for the life of destruction and strife, some preferring the joy of teaching and piety. Those men become clergymen, and should thus, be recognized as peaceful men. Would you honestly force a priest into combat?

Returning back to my first clause, it was my understanding that rights worked together. Thus, while we have the right to spread the word of God, others have the right to practice their own religion. My wording was only meant to specify the conversion and teachings of God, for I feel that it deserves a special place of importance. If I am mistaken, I can look further into this.

- Bishop van Buskirk

 

[jeeshadow]

Delegate Daret, regardless of your opinion, we must maintain certain traditions of the past, including Catholicism, for we are such a nation. Our people fought against the Protestants in order for their religion to be recognized as it's proper official status. I do not seek to forbid Protestant clergymen, or whatever they seek to name themselves, from proposing similar rights. Should they deem themselves fit to also receive such rights, by all means, I shall hear it.

Your insistence that I serve Belgium any less because I choose God over the sword is saddening to say the least. Not all men of this world are born for the life of destruction and strife, some preferring the joy of teaching and piety. Those men become clergymen, and should thus, be recognized as peaceful men. Would you honestly force a priest into combat?

Returning back to my first clause, it was my understanding that rights worked together. Thus, while we have the right to spread the word of God, others have the right to practice their own religion. My wording was only meant to specify the conversion and teachings of God, for I feel that it deserves a special place of importance. If I am mistaken, I can look further into this.

- Bishop van Buskirk

Would you consent to letting the clergy be drafted, if they are put in a non combat role to serve as military chaplins?

 

[Plutonium95]

Would you consent to letting the clergy be drafted, if they are put in a non combat role to serve as military chaplins?

This is exactly the type of military service I was talking about, I wasn't proposing that the priests should actually have to fight, it is not in their nature. Simply that the sacrifice of potential military service (even none combat roles) is a trade that is made in exchange for the kinds of rights the bishop asks for. No matter how many people are catholic, being a clergyman in and of itself is not service to the government.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

 

[jeeshadow]

I feel this new change will add a possibly needed check on the Supreme Court:

Judicary Article

-The Judicary Shall be an indepentent Branch of Government, with checks on all the other branches
-The levels of court shall be, local, provencial, regional (Flanders, Wallonian High Court), and a Supreme Court ((I am open to better names))
-The Judges shall be choosen from those adversed in law based on their qualifications
-Judges are not to be picked based on their political views, religion, or ethnicity
-The Supreme Court shall interpret the laws of the Belgium in regards to the constituiton
-The Supreme Court shall have the right to strike down any laws, or actions of the exectuitve branch, including the Monarch, if it voilates the consitiution
-The Military and Police of Belgium are required to uphold the rulings of the Courts of Belgium
-The Justices of the Supreme Court are to be in total 9 ((if someone can give me a better number, I shall consider it))
-The Justices are to be selected by the Prime Minister with choices approved by a simple majority vote of the Lower House
-Justices of the Supreme Court are to serve for live, althought they can retire
-Justices can not be replaced by the will of the Prime Minister

 

[Otto of england]

Incapability of the Monarch
I. If the reigning Monarch is pronounced insane, or otherwise incapable of ruling by a group of 10 doctors and a 2/3 majroity vote in the upper house consentig to this diagnosis then a regent is to be appointed.
II. The Upper House nominates a candidate to become the Regent, and does a quick vote if the candidate atleast gets 2/3 majority of the vote then it goes onto the Lower House.
III. The Lower House now votes on the candidate, if the candidate fails to receive 2/3 majority then the Upper house picks a new candidate.
IV. In the event the Monarch is too young (Under 16) then same process happens again.
V. In the event the Monarch abdicates the next in line succeds to the Throne.
VI. After a diagnosis of insanisty every 2 years 10 different doctors are to review the him again and announce whether he is fit to rule again or still unable. If he is fit the regent will step down and the monarch will resume ruling the country.

Bishop Van Buskirk now that I think about it that was not enough for a diganosis of insanity to such an important figure, I have promptly amended this so that more doctors and a upper houses consent are required as well as a way for regency to end and the monarch reinstated ruling powers.

- Fabian van de Velde, Count of Ypres

 

[SirkTheMonkey]

Loewen Parliament Proposal - Ninth Revision: No
I cannot support the proposal for numerous reasons. It gives unfettered suffrage without regard to a man's mental capacity or personal character. Additionally we have seen several concepts that have been overlooked which are superior to first-past-the-post voting included in this Proposal.

Bishop van Buskirk, I would ask you to consider expanding your Proposal to cover all clergymen belonging to recognised subsections of Christianity and not just Roman Catholicism. As a member of the Anglican Communion I fear that my priest could be drafted.

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

 

[Plutonium95]

I feel this new change will add a possibly needed check on the Supreme Court:

I will support this bill, I especially like that it provides both a Legislative and Executive check on the judiciary with regards to appointments.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret