Edge of Europe - A Belgian Interactive AAR

[Fingon888]

Loewen Parliament Proposal: Aye

 

[ThunderHawk3]

Day 5 at the convention has now begun.​

The topic for the day is: The Judiciary, Citizenship, and The Rights of the People.

 

[Otto of england]

Loewen Parliament Proposal: No

- Fabian van de Velde, Count of Ypres

 

[atomicsoda]

Loewen Parliament Proposal: Yes

 

[Noco19]

Loewen Parliament Proposal: Aye

- Bishop van Buskirk

 

[ThunderHawk3]

The [post=15775423]Merode Executive Proposal[/post] has passed with a clear majority.

The [post=15781403]Galler Legislative Language Article[/post] requests the unanimous consent of the chamber to pass without objection. (Ends 5:30 PM PST 7/14)

[post=15777379]Monarchy Ranked Vote[/post] (Ends 9 AM PST 7/14)
Yes: 18
No: 2
Abstain: 0

[post=15779395]Delcroix List of Candidates[/post] (Ends 9 AM PST 7/14) ((Again note that this would be the exclusive list of candidates if it takes force))
Yes: 16
No: 2
Abstain: 1

[post=15784528]Loewen Parliament Proposal - Ninth Revision[/post] (Ends 8:00 PM PST 7/15)
Yes: 4
No: 1
Abstain: 0

Here are the day 3-4 proposals at the end of Day 4. Day 5 has already started. All these proposals listed below will be voted on at the end of the convention as per convention rules.

Spoiler

[post=15777404]Galler Legislative Immunity Article[/post]

[post=15777438]Daret Proposal for the Selection of the Upper House[/post]

[post=15780597]Savarin Legislature of Belgium Plan, V2[/post]

[post=15777763]Du Sint-Niklaas Revised Joint Legislative Article[/post]

[post=15780463]Van Cock Parliament Article, as revised[/post]

[post=15783374]De Velde Legislature Plan, V4[/post]

[post=15780062]De Graaf's Proposal Regarding the National Assembly and Senate[/post]

[post=15780399]Vanderhoof Abolition of Political Parties[/post]

[post=15781403]Galler Legislative Language Article[/post]

[post=15781895]Brabrant Election Article[/post]

[post=15782143]Van Cock Article on War Declaration, as revised[/post]

[post=15782587]Van Steinbeck-Antonov Proposal for the Legislature of Belgium[/post]

[post=15784027]Van Brabant Standard[/post]

 

[Fingon888]

I believe Monsieur Aerts proposed an article on the Judiciary. Perhaps he would be willing to propose it again?

 

[atomicsoda]

((Is there a list with links to all articles which have been adopted so far?))

 

[Somberg]

Loewen Parliament Proposal: Aye

~ Willem Loewen, Mayor of and Delegate from Antwerp

 

[Noco19]

I present this small article in which I detail certain rights I believe should be afforded to the clergy populace. I claim no inherent skill in legislature, and would welcome all critiques with open arms.

Van Buskirk's Proposal on the Special Rights of the Church and Clergy​

I. All clergymen of the Catholic Church are entitled to the spreading of the Gospel of God without governmental hinderance

II. All clergymen of the Catholic Church are entitled to exemption from any mandatory military service or any duties or charges incompatible with their role

III. All clergymen of the Catholic Church are entitled to exemption from taxation levied upon their person, or Church property

IV. All clergymen of the Catholic Church are entitled to judgement by both an ecclesiastical tribunal and the standard law procedures, with the tribunal serving as a spriritual authority and the standard law taking temporal precedence

V. All clergymen of the Catholic Church are entitled to the same basic rights of all Belgian citizens

- Bishop van Buskirk

 

[Fingon888]

As a God-fearing Catholic I of course support Bishop van Buskirk's proposal.

 

[ThunderHawk3]

The Master List​

The clerk stands to address the Convention at the start of the legislative day.

"Gentlemen,

At last count, my tally shows that there are just under 50 proposals filed in the past four days currently scheduled for the general ballot at the end of the convention. Given the progress of the convention, some of these items may be obsolete or their authors may otherwise wish to withdraw them. Additionally, due to some filing errors and the rapid pace of the convention, the clerk's staff cannot guarantee that all proposals introduced have been appropriately documented.

I would like to ask that all of the delegates take a moment to review this list and see if there are any items their authors would like removed, or if there are any important proposals that have been omitted.

Thank you."

Spoiler

[post=15767233]Delcroix Kings of the Belgians Proposal[/post], defining the king as the head of state, specifying male primogeniture and the succession law, and specifying that the King must be catholic

[post=15767325]Delcroix Executive Branch Proposal[/post], dividing the executive between the King and Prime Minister, granting the King power to dissolve the government and appoint the Prime Minister, and granting various other powers to both.

[post=15768894]Van Brabant Constitutional Amendment Article, as Revised[/post], providing for constitutional amendment by a 2/3 majority and dismissing the government and calling upon the army to uphold the Constitution if it is violated

[post=15771135]Van Cock Government Article, as revised[/post], providing for a King, Prime Minister, Senate, House of Representatives, and Court, further defining Belgium as a union of Flanders and Wallonia and various other provisions

[post=15770313]Van Steinbeck-Antonov Proposal, as revised[/post], declaring the monarch to be the Emperor of Belgium and incorporating various other provisions

[post=15769359]Lévesque Article concerning the Governance of Belgium[/post], incorporating various provisions regarding the crown and the legislature

[post=15769876]The du Sint-Niklaas Senate Proposal[/post], comprehensively providing for the upper house

[post=15771200]Merode Article on the Role of the Church[/post], establishing the catholic church as the religion of Belgium, requiring catholicism and an oath of allegiance to the pope from the heads of state and government, and reserving 10% of one house for the clergy

[post=15770748]Aerts Article on the Crown Police of Belgium[/post], creating a minister of police and authorizing the police to arrest anyone including clergy and royalty

[post=15770911]Vanderhoof Guarantee of the Rights of the Nobility[/post], guaranteeing certain rights and privileges to the nobility, including the right to have a household guard, duel, appeal to the king, etc.

[post=15771073]Vanderhoof Procedure on the Election of the Belgian Monarch[/post], providing for the election of a Monarch

[post=15770576]Savarin Armed Forces of Belgium Article, as amended[/post], creating a Supreme Council of the Armed Forces of Belgium and for other purposes

[post=15772085]Lévesque Article Concerning the Governance of Belgium[/post], establishing the position and powers of the King, the legislature, and local Flemish and Wallonian legislatures

[post=15772346]Lévesque Article Concerning the Establishment of the Belgian Crown[/post], establishing the King as the Grand Duke of Flanders and Wallonia and granting him certain rights

[post=15773662]The Verxanellmes Statute[/post] establishing a Prime Minister chosen by the King from a senate of 80 and including other provisions related to the executive

[post=15774973]Van Cock Article on Head of State and Head of Government[/post], laying out an alternate scheme for the relationship between the crown and the Prime Minister

[post=15776408]The Vanderhoof Structure of Government Proposal[/post], establishing a tricameral Estates General, monarchy, and court system

[post=15776486]Van Brabant Martial Law Article[/post], empowering the Monarch to declare martial law for a maximum of one week, which can be extended by a vote of the legislature, and detailing the implications of martial law

[post=15777102]Savarin Proposal for Monarch Selection[/post], proposes a direct ballot and runoff for monarch

[post=15777404]Galler Legislative Immunity Article[/post], grants legislators immunity from prosecution for statements made within the legislative chambers

[post=15777763]Du Sint-Niklaas Revised Joint Legislative Article[/post], establishing a chamber elected by nationwide ballot and a chamber half appointed by the monarch and half appointed by the PM

[post=15780463]Van Cock Parliament Article, as revised[/post], splitting the lower house between Wallonia and Flanders and a variously appointed/hereditary upper house

[post=15783374]De Velde Legislature Plan, V4[/post], creating a nonpartisan upper house appointed by the King and confirmed by the PM, and a proportionally representative lower house

[post=15780399]Vanderhoof Abolition of Political Parties[/post], abolishing political parties in Belgium

[post=15782587]Van Steinbeck-Antonov Proposal for the Legislature of Belgium[/post], establishing a bicameral Estates General with lower house elected and upper house hereditary/appointed by the monarch

[post=15784027]Van Brabant Standard[/post], regarding the pay of various government officials

[post=15784877]Van Buskirk's Proposal on the Special Rights of the Church and Clergy[/post]

[post=15788291]Aerts Judiciary Article V2[/post]

[post=15784972]Aerts Article for Impeachment and Justice of Goverment Officials Revision 1[/post]

[post=15785248]Galler Judiciary Article[/post]

[post=15786265]Brabant Proposal for the Fair Allotment of Rights to the Clergy, Revision 1[/post]

[post=15786340]Van Den Brucke Social Classes of Belgium[/post]

[post=15786150]Van Den Brucke Belgian Concession of Rights[/post]

[post=15786727]Vanderhoof Article Regarding Press and Slander[/post]

 

[Plutonium95]

In the interest of defining "Belgian citizens" and outlining their rights I propose the following two bills (hopefully still co-sponsored by Bishop Delcroix). Let me know what you think of them, as I recall they received wide support from both sides.

Belgian Citizenship Revised
I. To be a citizen of the Belgian nation, a person must be at least one of the following things:
a. Born in the country of Belgium
i. This definition includes those born in the regions of Wallonia and Flanders before the official formation of the Belgian nation
ii. Children of foreign dignitaries, and children of wartime enemy soldiers, do not receive citizenship from their birth in Belgium
b. Have lived in Belgium for a minimum of ten years
i. This definition requires the applier to have been working in Belgium for a minimum of 6 years, if the applier is an adult male
c. Have a parent who holds Belgian citizenship
i. This definition does not apply to those who have been found guilty, or are in the process of being charged with, a crime
ii. The parent of Belgian citizenship must not have been found guilty of any crime for this clause to be enacted
II. Belgian citizenship confers upon its holder the right to all rights held by Belgian citizens, as well as all responsibilities that also are held by Belgian citizens
III. All men of 21 years or older of foreign birth living within Belgium for a period of not less than 2 years prior to the commencement of the Constitution are entitled to become citizens of Belgium as of right.

and

Joint Bill of Rights Revised
I. All people born in Belgian territory, or having at least one parent who is a citizen, have the right to claim Belgium citizenship. In the event of a person with a Belgian parent being born outside the country, they must apply for citizenship, but when granted it they shall be a full citizen.
II. Immigrants and other non-Belgians can apply for Belgian citizenship after having lived, and worked, in Belgium for a period of no less than ten years. Marriage to a Belgian citizen does not qualify one as being a Belgian citizen themselves.
III. All men will be viewed as equal under the law, with no prejudice based on race, social class, or beliefs.
IV. The state religion of Belgium shall be Roman Catholicism, but all religions shall be protected under the law, and the people of Belgium shall have the right to freedom of religion and worship.
V. All people shall have a right to freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and the right to assemble, which shall not be abridged.
a. The Freedom of the Press and Speech shall be moderately restricted by the Government, but only in the case of actively trying to dismantle or otherwise seriously harm the Belgian state. Political dissension and disagreement with government practices are still protected forms of speech.
VI. All people have a right to their property. It may not be seized by the government except in cases of it being illegally obtained, or for use as evidence in legal proceedings, after which it must be returned to its rightful owner. In order for property to be seized a judge must issue a warrant clearly providing an explanation as to why.
VII. A reasonable right to privacy held by all citizens, and no search may occur, except in the cases directly defined by the law.
VIII. The right to a trial by a jury of peers shall be preserved under all circumstances, no matter the crime.
IX. The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

In the Joint Bill of Rights, "a jury of peers" can be either defined as
1. A persons neighbors, associates, or persons holding the same legal status in society as he holds. According to the third cluase of the bill of rights "peers" would then be defined as any citizen of Belgium.

or

2. A fair cross section of the district or community in which the court convenes.

I am eager to hear which of the two options is favored, as this was seen as one of the few pieces of contention previously.

I wish to withdraw the Form of Government Proposal and the Proposal for the Selection of the Upper House.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

 

[Fingon888]

Ah, I must not have correctly announced this. I withdraw my Military of Belgium proposal.

 

[Otto of england]

Seeing as its absolete now I formally withdraw the van de Velde Form of Government proposal v4.

Incapability of the Monarch
I. If the reigning Monarch is pronounced insane, or otherwise incapable of ruling by a group of atleast 4 doctors then a regent is to be appointed.
II. The Upper House nominates a candidate to become the Regent, and does a quick vote if the candidate atleast gets 2/3 majority of the vote then it goes onto the Lower House.
III. The Lower House now votes on the candidate, if the candidate fails to receive 2/3 majority then the Upper house picks a new candidate.
IV. In the event the Monarch is too young (Under 16) then same process happens again.
V. In the event the Monarch abdicates the next in line succeds to the Throne.

Seeing as this will be important and very useful in the event any of these circumstances arise I would like to call this to vote.

- Fabian van de Velde, Count of Ypres

 

[Noco19]

Delegate van de Velde, I cannot support your proposal. I daresay that the ruling of simply four doctors is not enough to constitute an insane monarch. If anyone is to make such choices, I feel it should rest in more hands, perhaps a two-thirds majority of the upper or lower house?

I thank Delegate Damseaux for his support, God Bless you my child.

- Bishop van Buskirk

 

[jeeshadow]

I repropose the falowing article:

Judicary Article

-The Judicary Shall be an indepentent Branch of Government, with checks on all the other branches
-The levels of court shall be, local, provencial, regional (Flanders, Wallonian High Court), and a Supreme Court ((I am open to better names))
-The Judges shall be choosen from those adversed in law based on their qualifications
-Judges are not to be picked based on their political views, religion, or ethnicity
-The Supreme Court shall interpret the laws of the Belgium in regards to the constituiton
-The Supreme Court shall have the right to strike down any laws, or actions of the exectuitve branch, including the Monarch, if it voilates the consitiution
-The Military and Police of Belgium are required to uphold the rulings of the Courts of Belgium
-The Justices of the Supreme Court are to be in total 9 ((if someone can give me a better number, I shall consider it))
-The Justices are to be selected by the Prime Minister with choices approved by the Monarch
-Justices of the Supreme Court are to serve for live, althought they can retire
-Justices can not be replaced by the will of the Prime Minister

I am open to any suggestions people may have that will improve this proposal.

 

[Plutonium95]

I present this small article in which I detail certain rights I believe should be afforded to the clergy populace. I claim no inherent skill in legislature, and would welcome all critiques with open arms.



- Bishop van Buskirk

Sir, while not necessarily against such a proposal, I feel I should mention that the rights of the Belgian citizen are, realistically, a trade that he makes with the government. In the trade, he promises to serve in the military if called and pay taxes. In exchange, the Belgian government promises to defend his rights and not infringe upon them. What does the clergy do to earn rights if they will neither fight, nor pay taxes.

By of freedom of religion, which I propose in my Bill of Rights, I do support the churches right to spread the gospel. Yet I am leery that with such a clause the church could take illegal measures to do so, and the government would be unable to put a stop to it.

I repropose the falowing article:

I am open to any suggestions people may have that will improve this proposal.

Just a few changes and I think this would be a very good proposal. but first a question, do you still consider the PM a democratically elected official, when he is only nominated by the LH, but is appointed by the Monarch ((according to the Merode proposal))? And if not, who would pick the justices?

Additionally, I think the choices should be approved by the houses, not the Monarch, but I understand that the bill may then be viewed as "too liberal". I think that we have compromised a great deal on the Legislative and Executive branches though, and the conservatives should be expected to compromise on the Judicial.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

 

[Fingon888]

Delegate van de Velde, I cannot support your proposal. I daresay that the ruling of simply four doctors is not enough to constitute an insane monarch. If anyone is to make such choices, I feel it should rest in more hands, perhaps a two-thirds majority of the upper or lower house?

I thank Delegate Damseaux for his support, God Bless you my child.

- Bishop van Buskirk

No thanks is necessary, Monsieur. God Bless us all and our Kingdom.

 

[jeeshadow]

Loewen Parliament Proposal: Yes