Edge of Europe - A Belgian Interactive AAR

[atomicsoda]

I do not see the need to fix a rate of pay for government employees in the Constitution. These issues can be handled by legislation.

I also ask for a second for Legislative Language Article for unanimous consent. I hope we all can agree on this article.

 

[Noco19]

I do not see the need to fix a rate of pay for government employees in the Constitution. These issues can be handled by legislation.

I also ask for a second for Legislative Language Article for unanimous consent. I hope we all can agree on this article.

I shall second it, for it seems an obvious good addition.

- Bishop van Buskirk

 

[Somberg]

Here is the eighth and hopefully last revision of my proposal. The number of senators has been increased to 80, sections have been added to ensure order within both houses, and numerous other changes.

Loewen Parliament Proposal - Eighth Revision

1. Belgium shall have a bicameral Parliament consisting of two houses, the Senate and the Chamber of Deputies.
2. Parliament has the exclusive power to create and pass laws within the country.
3. Parliament has the power to declare war and sign international treaties with a 2/3rds vote within the Chamber of Deputies, subject to royal veto as outlined elsewhere in the Constitution.
4. One must be a Belgian citizen to hold a seat in either house of Parliament.
5. Members of either house of Parliament can be rejected for holding a criminal record.
6. Members of either house cannot hold a judicial or military position while serving and must resign from said positions before taking office.
7. Members of either house will be immediately removed upon conviction for a felony.
8. Members of either house are entitled to speak freely and may not be prosecuted for their words within their respective chambers.
9. Members of either house must remain courteous and respectful during the debate process at all times.
10. All citizens of Belgium, up to and including the Monarch, may attend sessions of either house and observe the legislative process.
11. No citizen of Belgium not a member of either house may participate in debate or, in the case of the Chamber of Deputies, draft legislation therein.
12. Citizens of Belgium that are not members of either house may address either chamber pending a simple majority vote, with the exception of senior members of the Government, who are free to address the Chamber of Deputies without requiring a vote.
13. No person can hold a seat in both houses at the same time.

A) The Senate

1. The Senate is the Upper House of Parliament.
2. The Senate consists of 80 members.
3. 40 of these members are appointed by the Monarch, 40 are appointed by the Prime Minister.
4. The Monarch and Prime Minister can review each other’s appointments to the Senate, and have the power to reject an appointment, in which case another candidate must be appointed.
5. The appointment period shall last for three months, at the end of which every appointment must be approved. Failure to have every appointment approved by the end of the period will result in the forced abdication of the Monarch and the dismissal of the Prime Minister, who shall be replaced.
6. In the case that a new Monarch or Prime Minister comes to power during the appointment period, the appointment period will be extended for three months from their ascension to power.
7. Senators must be at least 30 years of age.
8. Senators are required to be non-partisan.
9. Senators cannot present legislation.
10. The Senate reviews legislation passed by the Chamber of Deputies and can either pass it or reject it, in which case it is sent back to the Chamber of Deputies with revisions.
11. Legislation that is passed by the Senate is sent to the Monarch for approval.
12. Senators are appointed for a ten year term and can serve for an unlimited number of terms.
13. Every five years one half of the Senate will be up for reappointment, the first half will consist of 20 appointees of the Monarch and 20 appointees of the Prime Minister, the second half will consist of 20 different appointees of the Monarch and 20 different appointees of the Prime Minister.
14. At this time the Monarch and Prime Minister shall once again appoint Senators and can reappoint any Senator for another term.
15. The number of Wallons or Flemings in the Senate may not exceed 10% in favor of either ethnicity.

B) The Chamber of Deputies

1. The Chamber of Deputies is the Lower House of Parliament
2. The Chamber of Deputies consists of 200 members.
3. Belgium shall be divided into the regions of Flanders and Wallonia.
4. The number of constituencies for each region shall be determined proportionally by population and the constituencies within the same region shall have roughly the same population as each other.
5. Constituencies shall be reapportioned every ten years after a census has been taken.
6. Deputies are popularly elected by universal male suffrage in each constituency in a first past the post election.
7. Any Belgian citizen can become a Deputy, provided that they are of at least 25 years of age.
8. The Chamber of Deputies creates and passes legislation, which is then sent to the Senate for review.
9. The Chamber of Deputies needs to approve of the yearly budget presented by the Government.
10. A Deputy’s term shall last until the next election is called. Deputies can serve an unlimited number of terms.
11. The Chamber of Deputies may present a motion of no confidence against the Government which, if passed, dismisses the current Government and starts a new election.
12. Elections for the Chamber of Deputies will automatically occur five years after the most recent election if no election is held during that time.

~ Willem Loewen, Mayor of and Delegate from Antwerp

 

[ThunderHawk3]

I also ask for a second for Legislative Language Article for unanimous consent. I hope we all can agree on this article.

I shall second it, for it seems an obvious good addition.

- Bishop van Buskirk

So be it.

If there are no objections by 5:30 PM PST tomorrow, it shall have passed with unanimous consent.

 

[atomicsoda]

I must object to this provision. Forcing the Abdication by the Monarch is too extreme. If the PM and Monarch can not agree, I propose the Senate vote on the nominees.

5. The appointment period shall last for three months, at the end of which every appointment must be approved. Failure to have every appointment approved by the end of the period will result in the forced abdication of the Monarch and the dismissal of the Prime Minister, who shall be replaced.

This is also new and hasn't been discussed. Why a 2/3 vote to declare war. I believe this may also be covered in the Merede Executive Article. A simple majority is sufficient for a war declaration.

Parliament has the power to declare war and sign international treaties with a 2/3rds vote within the Chamber of Deputies, subject to royal veto as outlined elsewhere in the Constitution.

 

[Noco19]

I cannot support the Loewen Parliament Proposal for Clause A5.

The appointment period shall last for three months, at the end of which every appointment must be approved. Failure to have every appointment approved by the end of the period will result in the forced abdication of the Monarch and the dismissal of the Prime Minister, who shall be replaced.

I fail to see how forcing the abdication of the King is necessary in this situation. Also, I fear the abuse of this system, in which a Prime Minister can easily dethrone the King from spite, by sacrificing his position. Imagine the collapse of stability in which we say, God forbid, go through a series of monarchs rapidly.

- Bishop van Buskirk

 

[Somberg]

I cannot support the Loewen Parliament Proposal for Clause A5.



I fail to see how forcing the abdication of the King is necessary in this situation. Also, I fear the abuse of this system, in which a Prime Minister can easily dethrone the King from spite, by sacrificing his position. Imagine the collapse of stability in which we say, God forbid, go through a series of monarchs rapidly.

- Bishop van Buskirk

I will change that clause immediately, as it indeed is probably going too far. I will also be incorporating Meneer Galler's suggestion to have the other Senators vote on the nominees if the King and PM cannot agree within the time limit and his suggest to have a simple majority required to declare war.

~ Willem Loewen, Mayor of and Delegate from Antwerp

 

[Noco19]

That is most certainly an improvement. I commend Delegate Loewen's spirit of cooperation.

- Bishop van Buskirk

 

[Somberg]

I present the ninth revision of my proposal, which changes clause A.5 to require that the other Senators vote on the unapproved candidates and changes clause 3, to require that declarations of war and the signing of international treaties need only a simple majority vote in the Chamber of Deputies to pass.

Loewen Parliament Proposal - Ninth Revision

1. Belgium shall have a bicameral Parliament consisting of two houses, the Senate and the Chamber of Deputies.
2. Parliament has the exclusive power to create and pass laws within the country.
3. Parliament has the power to declare war and sign international treaties with a simple majority vote within the Chamber of Deputies, subject to royal veto as outlined elsewhere in the Constitution.
4. One must be a Belgian citizen to hold a seat in either house of Parliament.
5. Members of either house of Parliament can be rejected for holding a criminal record.
6. Members of either house cannot hold a judicial or military position while serving and must resign from said positions before taking office.
7. Members of either house will be immediately removed upon conviction for a felony.
8. Members of either house are entitled to speak freely and may not be prosecuted for their words within their respective chambers.
9. Members of either house must remain courteous and respectful during the debate process at all times.
10. All citizens of Belgium, up to and including the Monarch, may attend sessions of either house and observe the legislative process.
11. No citizen of Belgium not a member of either house may participate in debate or, in the case of the Chamber of Deputies, draft legislation therein.
12. Citizens of Belgium that are not members of either house may address either chamber pending a simple majority vote, with the exception of senior members of the Government, who are free to address the Chamber of Deputies without requiring a vote.
13. No person can hold a seat in both houses at the same time.

A) The Senate

1. The Senate is the Upper House of Parliament.
2. The Senate consists of 80 members.
3. 40 of these members are appointed by the Monarch, 40 are appointed by the Prime Minister.
4. The Monarch and Prime Minister can review each other’s appointments to the Senate, and have the power to reject an appointment, in which case another candidate must be appointed.
5. The appointment period shall last for three months, at the end of which every appointment must be approved. Failure to have every appointment approved by the end of the period will result in the half of the Senate not up for appointment voting on the candidates that have not yet been approved.
6. In the case that a new Monarch or Prime Minister comes to power during the appointment period, the appointment period will be extended for three months from their ascension to power.
7. Senators must be at least 30 years of age.
8. Senators are required to be non-partisan.
9. Senators cannot present legislation.
10. The Senate reviews legislation passed by the Chamber of Deputies and can either pass it or reject it, in which case it is sent back to the Chamber of Deputies with revisions.
11. Legislation that is passed by the Senate is sent to the Monarch for approval.
12. Senators are appointed for a ten year term and can serve for an unlimited number of terms.
13. Every five years one half of the Senate will be up for reappointment, the first half will consist of 20 appointees of the Monarch and 20 appointees of the Prime Minister, the second half will consist of 20 different appointees of the Monarch and 20 different appointees of the Prime Minister.
14. At this time the Monarch and Prime Minister shall once again appoint Senators and can reappoint any Senator for another term.
15. The number of Wallons or Flemings in the Senate may not exceed 10% in favor of either ethnicity.

B) The Chamber of Deputies

1. The Chamber of Deputies is the Lower House of Parliament
2. The Chamber of Deputies consists of 200 members.
3. Belgium shall be divided into the regions of Flanders and Wallonia.
4. The number of constituencies for each region shall be determined proportionally by population and constituencies within the same region shall encompass roughly the same population as each other.
5. Constituencies shall be reapportioned every ten years after a census has been taken.
6. Deputies are popularly elected by universal male suffrage in each constituency in a first past the post election.
7. Any Belgian citizen can become a Deputy, provided that they are of at least 25 years of age.
8. The Chamber of Deputies creates and passes legislation, which is then sent to the Senate for review.
9. The Chamber of Deputies needs to approve of the yearly budget presented by the Government.
10. A Deputy’s term shall last until the next election is called. Deputies can serve an unlimited number of terms.
11. The Chamber of Deputies may present a motion of no confidence against the Government which, if passed, dismisses the current Government and starts a new election.
12. Elections for the Chamber of Deputies will automatically occur five years after the most recent election if no election is held during that time.

~ Willem Loewen, Mayor of and Delegate from Antwerp

 

[Plutonium95]

I will change that clause immediately, as it indeed is probably going too far. I will also be incorporating Meneer Galler's suggestion to have the other Senators vote on the nominees if the King and PM cannot agree within the time limit and his suggest to have a simple majority required to declare war.

~ Willem Loewen, Mayor of and Delegate from Antwerp

Monsieur Loewen, again I applaud your willingness to adjust to incorporate others ideas and opinions. That said, people will always have new ideas and opinions on how you can change your bill. I would ask that you consider asking for a second when you propose the 9th revision so it may be put to a vote ((We are getting close to the end of the legislative day right?)). To the best of my knowledge your proposal is supportered by many people of both parties and it will be seen as a fair compromise by many who have not declared support outright. Just something to consider.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

 

[viola]

6. Deputies are popularly elected by universal male suffrage in each constituency in a first past the post election.

Universal male suffrage? Does that mean that now peasants could vote!?

This is unacceptable, farmers and labourers simply can't understand politics, the Bourgeoisie might be more educated thank to their wealth but the farmers would simply be tricked by demagogues to vote for whoever they want! There should be limitations to voting rights based on wealth.
I must oppose this.

- Baron Frederick Van Den Brucke

 

[atomicsoda]

I present the ninth revision of my proposal, which changes clause A.5 to require that the other Senators vote on the unapproved candidates and changes clause 3, to require that declarations of war and the signing of international treaties need only a simple majority vote in the Chamber of Deputies to pass.



~ Willem Loewen, Mayor of and Delegate from Antwerp

This looks very good. Thank you for your hard work in drafting this proposal through so many revisions.

 

[ThunderHawk3]

The [post=15775423]Merode Executive Proposal[/post] has passed with a clear majority and is now incorporated into the Constitution.

The legislative day will end in two hours, at which time the topic will change to the Judiciary, Citizenship, and the Rights of the People.

 

[Somberg]

I do believe that this ninth revision shall be my last and ask for a second on my proposal so it may go up for vote. I would like to thank all of those who have helped me craft this proposal to what it is now. Without your help and suggestions this would not have turned into the widely supported compromise proposal it has become.

~ Willem Loewen, Mayor of and Delegate from Antwerp

 

[jeeshadow]

I shall Second the Ninth Revision

 

[viola]

I must protest and once again denounce the craziness of giving the right to vote to mere peasants!

They are illiterate, too ignorant to truly understand what voting mean, they would become puppets of demagogues and tyrants leading our nation to revolution and anarchy! Such radical decisions were never seen before, not even in the cursed revolutionary republic of North America! What kind of impression will we give to the great powers of Europe?

I ask to any reasonable person of this assembly to oppose this mad proposal and instead to suggest wealth-based limitations to the right of vote! Only those who can afford an education should be entrusted to vote!

- Baron Frederick Van Den Brucke

 

[Plutonium95]

I must protest and once again denounce the craziness of giving the right to vote to mere peasants!

They are illiterate, too ignorant to truly understand what voting mean, they would become puppets of demagogues and tyrants leading our nation to revolution and anarchy! Such radical decisions were never seen before, not even in the cursed revolutionary republic of North America! What kind of impression will we give to the great powers of Europe?

I ask to any reasonable person of this assembly to oppose this mad proposal and instead to suggest wealth-based limitations to the right of vote! Only those who can afford an education should be entrusted to vote!

- Baron Frederick Van Den Brucke

The "mere peasants" that you so clearly detest are the backbone of the nation. Where would we be if such men did not work the fields, if they did not pull ore and coal from the mines, or if they don't work producing quality materials in the factories. I will tell you that we would be nowhere. These men contribute to our nation, and as such they should be awarded a say in how it is run.

I am a man of wealth, so you would say I can vote, but why, because I pay a large sum of taxes? I can assure you that I wouldn't be paying those without the common man who works in my mines, factories, and foundries, even if they do not pay much in taxes directly.

These peasants are the men who fought the Dutch so that we might be free, and yet now you say they should be excluded from the national discussion, such a proposal is ridiculous. I do not care if the United States does not provide all men the right to vote, someone must be the first, and why not let it be us.

As far as their supposed "ignorance", our people are some of the most intelligent in the world, with a high literacy rate. It seems as if you have never talked to a "peasant" they are no different than you or I and as such they are equally capable of understanding complex issues such as voting and choosing a representative.

Your efforts to keep the common man from having a say in his own government are deplorable, and I should hope you are alone in such beliefs.

I support the 9th revision.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

 

[SirkTheMonkey]

*Yawns* Terribly sorry, I appear to have fallen asleep in my seat. I believe I overheard a discussion about suffrage? I share the Baron's fears about the uneducated or the uninformed being seized upon by the unscrupulous but at the same time I am of the believe that giving as many men as possible a say in the nation's future will help foster unity. That is why I outlined in my initial thoughts on the matter a method for giving more votes to those who have a greater stake in the future of our nation, people who could be reasonably expected to have greater resistance to anti-social coercion.

- L. Percival Willems-Hopegood, Delegate-at-Large

 

[ThunderHawk3]

I do believe that this ninth revision shall be my last and ask for a second on my proposal so it may go up for vote. I would like to thank all of those who have helped me craft this proposal to what it is now. Without your help and suggestions this would not have turned into the widely supported compromise proposal it has become.

~ Willem Loewen, Mayor of and Delegate from Antwerp

I shall Second the Ninth Revision

So be it then.

Player Actions Needed:
In addition to the outstanding [post=15777379]Ranked Vote For the Monarchy Proposal[/post] and the [post=15779395]Delcroix List of Candidates for the Belgian Throne, as amended[/post]:

The [post=15784461]Loewen Parliament Proposal - Ninth Revision[/post] is now being voted on.

Sample Ballot:

Ranked Vote For the Monarchy Proposal: Yes/No/Abstain
Delcroix List of Candidates: Yes/No/Abstain
Loewen Parliament Proposal: Yes/No/Abstain

Voting on this proposal will close two days from now, at 8:00 PM PST 7/15/13 (3 AM GMT 7/16, I want to say).

 

[Plutonium95]

I cast my vote as

Loewen Parliament Proposal: Yes