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Scrapknight

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Good morning, gentlemen. I hope everyone is well-rested.

I will be creating an eighth and hopefully last revision of my proposal. In it I will change the number of Senators to 80, put in place a clause to prevent the abuse of the Senatorial appointment veto, and some other minor language changes. I would appreciate any suggestions on what else I can add to this last revision and anything that needs to be further clarified.

~ Willem Loewen, Mayor of and Delegate from Antwerp

I would recommend clarifying the powers regarding approving treaties and declaring war that the legislature has, or at the very least with respect to treaties since we will be discussing war powers later. I also recommend including versions of these clauses for each House. They might be beneficial for maintaining order.

N. All members of the National Assembly are entitled to speak freely and may not be prosecuted for their words within the Chamber.
O. All citizens of Belgium, up to and including the King of the Belgians, may attend sessions of the National Assembly and observe the legislative process.
P. No citizen of Belgium not a member of the National Assembly may participate in debate or draft legislation therein.
Q. Citizens of Belgium that are not members of the National Assembly may address the chamber pending a simple majority vote.
R. Delegates must remain courteous and respectful during the debate process at all times.

And finally, to respond to Monseiur Daret's question about what the liberal elements of this convention should demand, I believe that a strong, independent judiciary, the reservation of the power to declare war and approve treaties to the legislature, and police protection against royal abuses of power (I believe someone styled it the Crown Police Act) are excellent places to start. I welcome the suggestions of my colleagues as well.

((Name-wise, I think the Senate is a good choice and seems to have a good deal of support. For the Lower House, I vote for either National Assembly or Legislative Assembly. It conveys the sense that it's a popularly elected house pretty well, and the National Assembly was a part of revolutionary [and if memory serves Napoleonic] France, so it's not just for devolved governments. I also don't really like the title "Deputy;" it sounds rather subservient to the upper house. I much prefer "Delegate" because it conveys the sense that the representatives are only there at the behest of the people. Again, since this is the popularly elected house, I feel they would be good choices.))
 

DensleyBlair

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((Name-wise, I think the Senate is a good choice and seems to have a good deal of support. For the Lower House, I vote for either National Assembly or Legislative Assembly. It conveys the sense that it's a popularly elected house pretty well, and the National Assembly was a part of revolutionary [and if memory serves Napoleonic] France, so it's not just for devolved governments. I also don't really like the title "Deputy;" it sounds rather subservient to the upper house. I much prefer "Delegate" because it conveys the sense that the representatives are only there at the behest of the people. Again, since this is the popularly elected house, I feel they would be good choices.))

((How about House of Delegates for the LH, if, indeed, you wish for members to be Delegates?))
 

DensleyBlair

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((Not a bad idea. It sounds a little silly, but it is unique. I rather like it.))

((Turns out it's used in Virginia and Maryland as their respective Lower Houses. How would you say it sounds silly?))
 

theAhawk

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((If we're copying Virginia, you could go for "House of Burgesses" which is not used anywhere nowadays...))
 

Scrapknight

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((Really, they use it too? I had no idea. However, I definitely don't want to copy Virginia, I just think Delegate is a nice title. Well, if there's precedent, I say we go for House of Delegates.))
 

Gen. Marshall

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((House of Delegates sounds nice.))

Gentlemen, would anyone please pass me the Convention Agenda? I have a proposal to propose, but I think it might be more fitting to propose it later.

- Maximiliaan van Brabant, Delegate of Antwerp
 

ThunderHawk3

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((House of Delegates sounds nice.))

Gentlemen, would anyone please pass me the Convention Agenda? I have a proposal to propose, but I think it might be more fitting to propose it later.

- Maximiliaan van Brabant, Delegate of Antwerp

[post=15772226]The Convention Agenda - Subject to Change[/post]
 

Gen. Marshall

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In that case, I shall present my Article at this point in time.

The Van Brabant Standard
I. The Monarch shall recieve 8 times the average pay of Belgians in non-governmental service.
a. The Royal Palace and a sufficient amount of lackeys shall be paid by the Government.
II. The Prime Minister shall recieve 4 times the average pay of Belgians in non-governmental service.
III. Members of the Legislature shall recieve 2 times the average pay of Belgians in non-governmental service.
IV. Other (quasi-)government officials shall recieve a pay in line with the current market situation, while observing Article V.
V. No (quasi-)government official shall recieve a higher pay than the Prime Minister.
VI. All aforementioned pay grades exclude any compensation for business-related expenses.
VII. Government officials may have an additional, second job in the private sector.
a. Malfunction due to having such an additional job is a valid reason for an immediate dismissal from any Executive office.

I hope this proposal is agreeable for Liberals and Conservatives alike.

- Maximiliaan van Brabant, Delegate of Antwerp
 

Harpsichord

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((But...but...delegates means an entirely different thing to representative :( ))
 

DensleyBlair

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((But...but...delegates means an entirely different thing to representative :( ))

((Delegate: A person sent or authorised to represent others, in particular an elected representative sent to a conference.
Representative: A person chosen or appointed to act or speak for others (in a legislative assembly or deliberative body.)

This website has them as synonyms.

They seem pretty synonymous to me ;)

[Definitions courtesy of my iPad.]))
 

viola

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In that case, I shall present my Article at this point in time.



I hope this proposal is agreeable for Liberals and Conservatives alike.

- Maximiliaan van Brabant, Delegate of Antwerp
Sounds reasonable...
Of course the Aristocrats and the clergy will be considered "quasi-governmental officials" considering their vital role in society, right?

- Baron Frederick Van Den Brucke
 

Fingon888

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Sounds reasonable...
Of course the Aristocrats and the clergy will be considered "quasi-governmental officials" considering their vital role in society, right?

- Baron Frederick Van Den Brucke

I am not arguing with the important role of the clergy, but why would the government pay some of the highest paid members of our society? The Government does not exist to fill your coffers, my lord.
 

Gen. Marshall

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Sounds reasonable...
Of course the Aristocrats and the clergy will be considered "quasi-governmental officials" considering their vital role in society, right?

- Baron Frederick Van Den Brucke

I'm afraid not, Baron Van Den Brucke. Quasi-governmental officials refers to those employees of any companies that might be owned by the government, either by nationalization (which I oppose) or the formation of expert advising bureaus by the government, like a Financial advise council. The members of this council would then be considered quasi-governmental officials.

However, Article VII does allow for aristocrats and businessmen to continue making a profit, while being a member of the government.

- Maximiliaan van Brabant, Delegate of Antwerp
 

viola

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I am not arguing with the important role of the clergy, but why would the government pay some of the highest paid members of our society? The Government does not exist to fill your coffers, my lord.
The Aristocracy has always been the pillar of our civilization, it's only fair that the government rewards those who keep the economy running and enforce the law in the countryside.

I'm afraid not, Baron Van Den Brucke. Quasi-governmental officials refers to those employees of any companies that might be owned by the government, either by nationalization (which I oppose) or the formation of expert advising bureaus by the government, like a Financial advise council. The members of this council would then be considered quasi-governmental officials.

However, Article VII does allow for aristocrats and businessmen to continue making a profit, while being a member of the government.

- Maximiliaan van Brabant, Delegate of Antwerp
Oh well...
It doesn't matter, this is probably something that can be fixed later...

- Baron Frederick Van Den Brucke
 

Noco19

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Whilst I may not speak for the entirety of the clergy, I for one, do not wish for a government paycheck. I am a man of God, and material goods are not needed for my salvation.

- Bishop van Buskirk
 

hoi2geek

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My vote:

-Merode Executive Proposal: Abstain
-Monarchy Ranked Vote: NAY
-Delcroix List of Candidates: NAY - I will however change my vote if you provide a guarantee that states that Grand Duke Michael Pavlovich is one of the candidates listed.

-Jan-Aleksandr Ivanovich van Steinbeck-Antonov
Councillor of Antwerp
 

viola

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My vote:

-Merode Executive Proposal: Abstain
-Monarchy Ranked Vote: NAY
-Delcroix List of Candidates: NAY - I will however change my vote if you provide a guarantee that states that Grand Duke Michael Pavlovich is one of the candidates listed.

-Jan-Aleksandr Ivanovich van Steinbeck-Antonov
Councillor of Antwerp
The Delcroix List of Candidates was recently changed to include Duke Pavlovich, it seems that the bishop already gave you his guarantee.

- Baron Frederick Van Den Brucke
 

hoi2geek

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The Delcroix List of Candidates was recently changed to include Duke Pavlovich, it seems that the bishop already gave you his guarantee.

- Baron Frederick Van Den Brucke

In that case, I change my vote to AYE

-Jan-Aleksandr Ivanovich van Steinbeck-Antonov
Councillor of Antwerp