Edge of Europe - A Belgian Interactive AAR

[yourworstnightm]

While we still discuss the Legislative today I have been working on a Article on war declarations I hope we can get to vote on at the end of the Convention. This is a very early draft.

Article on War Declaration

1. The Prime Minister can ask the Lower House of Parliament for a declaration of war against another country. The Lower House can then choose to declare war or not with a single majority
2. The King will be asked to sign the war declaration, if he refuses the Prime Minister will sign it
3. After the declaration is signed the Kingdom of Belgium is officially at war with the nation or nations the declaration was aimed at

 

[Marschalk]

While we still discuss the Legislative today I have been working on a Article on war declarations I hope we can get to vote on at the end of the Convention. This is a very early draft.

Baron, in accordance with the de Merode Executive Proposal, which is a compromise between the liberal and conservative groups, the King is "the primary representative of the Belgian people in all foreign affairs". The Parliament should not be able to declare war without the consent of the Head of State.

- Charles, Prince de Ligne

 

[DensleyBlair]

((Just to add to this 'Murican naming debate – the Belgians use basically the American names. They have a Chamber of Represenatatives and a Senate.))

 

[Tapscott]

Baron, in accordance with the de Merode Executive Proposal, which is a compromise between the liberal and conservative groups, the King is "the primary representative of the Belgian people in all foreign affairs". The Parliament should not be able to declare war without the consent of the Head of State.

- Charles, Prince de Ligne

Indeed, it makes sense that his consent would be neccessary for a declaration of war.

~ Sébastien Delcroix, Bishop of Brabant

 

[yourworstnightm]

After some feedback I have made some revisions

Article on War Declaration (revision 1)

1. The King can ask the Prime Minister to ask the Lower House of Parliament for a declaration of war against another country. The Lower House can then choose to declare war or not with a single majority. If the Prime Minister refuses to ask the Parliament to declare war, the king can ask the Foreign Minister and the Minister of War to jointly do it instead.
2. The King and the Prime Minister will sign the declaration. If the Prime Minister refuses to sign it he will have to resign
3. After the declaration is signed the Kingdom of Belgium is officially at war with the nation or nations the declaration was aimed at

 

[Harpsichord]

I support the "Loewen Parliament Proposal - Seventh Revision". I believe it is the best proposal so far concerning the legislature.

 

[Dadarian]

((I think you will find the Americans copied the British. The lower house in the UK is the House of Commons whilst the lower house in the various dominions is the House of Representatives (since we are all common in the colonies). For a European flavour, Chamber of Deputies would do. I would add that my Senate rotation proposal is based on the Australian constitution.))

((Canada has a House of Commons still))

 

[hoi2geek]

I would like to propose the following. . .

Van Steinbeck-Antonov Proposal for the Legislature of Belgium

Article I.
-Belgium's legislature is called the Estates-General
-The Estates-General is divided into the House of Lords and the House of Commons
-Any law in Belgium must require the consent of both houses of the Estates-General
-Both Houses can initiate bills

Article II.
-The House of Lords is the Upper House of the Estates-General.
-The House is composed of 80 members, 60 are hereditary peers, the rest are life peers chosen by the King/Emperor
-The House of Lords scrutinizes bills passed in the House of Commons, and can reject any bill passed in the House of Commons

Article II.
-The House of Commons is the Lower House of the Estates-General.
-Its 190 members are elected by the people.
-The House of Commons can pass bills, has the power of the purse

 

[yourworstnightm]

I would like to propose the following. . .

Van Steinbeck-Antonov Proposal for the Legislature of Belgium

Article I.
-Belgium's legislature is called the Estates-General
-The Estates-General is divided into the House of Lords and the House of Commons
-Any law in Belgium must require the consent of both houses of the Estates-General
-Both Houses can initiate bills

Article II.
-The House of Lords is the Upper House of the Estates-General.
-The House is composed of 80 members, 60 are hereditary peers, the rest are life peers chosen by the King/Emperor
-The House of Lords scrutinizes bills passed in the House of Commons, and can reject any bill passed in the House of Commons

Article II.
-The House of Commons is the Lower House of the Estates-General.
-Its 190 members are elected by the people.
-The House of Commons can pass bills, has the power of the purse

Estates-General sounds French. I can't support any plans for French dominance.

 

[Otto of england]

((I take it since no one is commenting on my proposal its perfect?))

Van Cock, that Declaration fo War proposal seems very sound though why cant the King ask directly?

- Fabian van de Velde, Count of Ypres

 

[hoi2geek]

Estates-General sounds French. I can't support any plans for French dominance.

Well, other countries use the name for their legislatures as well. So, why can't we?

-Jan Aleksandr Ivanovich van Steinbeck-Antonov
Councillor of Antwerp

 

[ThunderHawk3]

Another morning tally, though it hardly seems necessary. Things seem to have cooled off a bit.

[post=15775423]Merode Executive Proposal:[/post] (Ends 6 PM PST 7/13)
Yes: 21
No: 4
Abstain: 0

[post=15777379]Monarchy Ranked Vote[/post] (Ends 9 AM PST 7/14)
Yes: 18
No: 1
Abstain: 0

[post=15779395]Delcroix List of Candidates[/post] (Ends 9 AM PST 7/14) ((Again note that this would be the exclusive list of candidates if it takes force))
Yes: 15
No: 2
Abstain: 1

Here are the day 3-4 proposals currently on the table. The legislative day will end in 24 hours. At that time, the topic of the day will change. All these proposals will be voted on at the end of the convention as per convention rules.

Spoiler

[post=15777404]Galler Legislative Immunity Article[/post]

[post=15777438]Daret Proposal for the Selection of the Upper House[/post]

[post=15780597]Savarin Legislature of Belgium Plan, V2[/post]

[post=15777763]Du Sint-Niklaas Revised Joint Legislative Article[/post]

[post=15780463]Van Cock Parliament Article, as revised[/post]

[post=15780956]De Velde Legislature Plan, V3[/post]

[post=15781537]Loewen Parliament Proposal, Seventh Revision[/post]

[post=15780062]De Graaf's Proposal Regarding the National Assembly and Senate[/post]

[post=15780399]Vanderhoof Abolition of Political Parties[/post]

[post=15781403]Galler Legislative Language Article[/post]

[post=15781895]Brabrant Election Article[/post]

[post=15782143]Van Cock Article on War Declaration, as revised[/post]

[post=15782587]Van Steinbeck-Antonov Proposal for the Legislature of Belgium[/post]

 

[yourworstnightm]

((I take it since no one is commenting on my proposal its perfect?))

Van Cock, that Declaration fo War proposal seems very sound though why cant the King ask directly?

- Fabian van de Velde, Count of Ypres

Because I'm not sure the king should address Parliament too often. And even though the King leads Foreign Policy I feel the Prime Minister as Head of Government should be involved in the decision.

 

[jeeshadow]

((Just to add to this 'Murican naming debate – the Belgians use basically the American names. They have a Chamber of Represenatatives and a Senate.))

((I think Senate is a good name for the UH. I do belive the name of the LH should be changed. It should go with National Assembly. That is a name that many lower houses in the world use.))

 

[Harpsichord]

((I think Senate is a good name for the UH. I do belive the name of the LH should be changed. It should go with National Assembly. That is a name that many lower houses in the world use.))

((No offence, but that's an awful reason to name a house))

 

[DensleyBlair]

((When I think of National Assemblies, I think of devolutionary governments – like the Welsh Assembly (incidentally, my cousin is a former First Minister.) I've never liked the use of 'Deputy,' as it always sounds lesser than the UH to me. I'd be fine with House of Commons.))

 

[jeeshadow]

((When I think of National Assemblies, I think of devolutionary governments – like the Welsh Assembly (incidentally, my cousin is a former First Minister.) I've never liked the use of 'Deputy,' as it always sounds lesser than the UH to me. I'd be fine with House of Commons.))

((How does Legislative Assembly sound? I belive it is the lower house in some commonwealth nations))

 

[SirkTheMonkey]

((How does Legislative Assembly sound? I belive it is the lower house in some commonwealth nations))

((Here in Oz it's the name of the lower house of our state parliaments. The federal one is the House of Representatives.))

 

[Otto of england]

Well discussing with some fellow delegates they pointed out the the lower house in my proposal has very few inital seats but could become massive very quickly once we have signifcant population growth. im hopefull this change will make it better.

Van de Velde Legislature article version 4
1. The Legislature
1I. The Legislature of Belgium shall be defined as a bicameral body. The Upper House shall be called the Senate, and the Lower House shall be called the National Assembly.
1II. The Legislature of Belgium has the exclusive power to make and pass laws within the country.
1III. The Legislature of Belgium has the power to declare war and accept international treaties, subject to a royal veto as outlined below.
1IV. One must be a Belgian citizen to stand for election, or appointment to Upper House.
1V. Members of either House can not hold a judicial or military position while serving.
1VI. No person can hold seats in both houses.
1VII. A minimum age of 21 is required to be appointed to the Upper House or stand for election.

2. The Upper House.
2I. The Upper house will be made by appointments for life.
2II. The Upper House will consist of 50 seats.
2III. The Upper House reviews bills proposed in the lower house, and can send them back to be redone by the lower house.
2IV. The members of the Upper House cannot have party affiliations.
2V. The Members of the Upper House are to appoint a speaker of the house once a year and no person can be speaker for 2 consecutive years.
2VI. The Speaker of the House is to try to make sure debate stays on topic for that year.
2VII. The Members of the upper House are appointed by the King, and then they have to be confirmed by the PM.
2VIII. If there is spots open at the start of the legislative Year then they must be filled by April 1st, if they are not filled then the King can replace the PM for blocking Upper House appointments.
2IX. In the event that the PM is dismissed for blocking appointments then the Speaker of the House is to review the appointments and confirm or reject them, if every candidate blocked by the PM was also block by the speaker then the PM is not dismissed.
2X. If a Senate member is found to have a political affiliation, or otherwise become partisan they are to immediately give it up or be ejected.

3. The Lower House.
3I. The Lower House is elected in a General election that must happen at least every 5 years.
3II. An election can be forced with a 2/3 Non confidence vote against the current government.
3III. The second largest party is the official opposition and can form a shadow cabinet.
3IV. The Lower House can propose laws and send them to the upper house for review.
3V. The Lower House is to be proportional representative body.
3VI. If it’s been 5 years and there hasn’t been an election then the session of government is considered void and every bill they attempt to pass is also considered void.
2VII. There are to be 200 seats, split evenly across all of belgium.

4. Absolute Majority Actions
4I. Any declaration of war must receive a 2/3 majority in both houses and have the Kings consent before a state of war is considered to exist.
4II. Any international treat must receive a 2/3 majority in both houses and have the Kings consent before it is considered ratified.
4III. Any Constitutional amendment must receive a 2/3 Majority in both houses before it’s considered emplaced.
4IV. In the event that only the Upper House rejects the Constitutional Amendment then the Lower House can revise it before trying to pass it again; this can only be done once per Legislative year.
4V. Nation wide referendums only need a 55% majority for there result to be considered legitimate, unless 90%+ of the people of Belgium voted then a 51% is considered legitimate.
4VI. Non Confidence votes can be against a single cabinet member or the entire cabinet, in the event its against the entire cabinet and succeeds then an election is to be called immediately.

- Fabian van de Velde, Count of Ypres

 

[Somberg]

I will be creating an eighth and hopefully last revision of my proposal. In it I will change the number of Senators to 80, put in place a clause to prevent the abuse of the Senatorial appointment veto, and some other minor language changes. I would appreciate any suggestions on what else I can add to this last revision and anything that needs to be further clarified.

~ Willem Loewen, Mayor of and Delegate from Antwerp