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Fingon888

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I feel the best candidate for our King is Auguste de Beauharnais. Not only is his lineage spectacular, he is related to the man who I bled for at Borodino. I would love to serve under another Napoleon. Barring that, I would have Prince Louis as our King. Saying that, I don't mind Prince Leopold. However, I would rather die than serve an Austrian. I will not have the men who subjugated us for a century to rule us again. I simply cannot allow a Hapsburg on the throne of Belgium. It would be an insult to everything our Revolution stood for. It would be like placing a Dutchman or a Prussian on our throne.
 

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I have a question regarding the Merode Executive Proposal. What does the term "absolute majority" mean in the proposal. The term is used to reference to overriding a Royal veto and demanding the King abdicate.
 

Plutonium95

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I have a question regarding the Merode Executive Proposal. What does the term "absolute majority" mean in the proposal. The term is used to reference to overriding a Royal veto and demanding the King abdicate.

((I didn't write the proposal, but according to the internet it either means, 50%+1, or much more likely, a 2/3s majority.))
 

ThunderHawk3

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((Thunderhawk, what about my 2 policies that weren't even discussed? Will they voted on too?))

That two that weren't seconded returned to the table at the end of the legislative day and aren't currently eligible to be voted on. I think they're both topical on Day 7, though I honestly forget what they were.
 

Harpsichord

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Merode Executive Proposal: Yes
 

Scrapknight

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I apologize for my lateness; the gentlemen with whom I had to negotiate the distribution contracts drove very hard bargains, I must say.

After reading the de Merode proposal as revised, I must say that, considering its nature as a compromise measure, I can find little to object to other than the issue of royal pardons. I still believe that they should be granted only by agreement between the Prime Minister and monarch. I also must confess that establishing the king's role with respect to the military before discussing said role in full on the second-to-last day of this convention may be premature. Nonetheless, I thank the Marquis for taking my criticisms and those of the other liberal delegates into consideration. I cannot say how this document may need to change in the future, but for now it is acceptable.

The Vanderhoof proposal is certainly unlike anything else we have yet seen, though the striking similarity to the pre-revolutionary government in France should be noted by any delegates wishing to declare their support. We know the fate of that government, do we not? You can like the Revolution or not, monseiur, but it cannot be undone. The world has moved forward since the days of the three estates. We are all Belgians, like it or not. No more shall the "common man," as reactionaries patronizingly call us not of noble birth, kneel before the aristocracy, and we cannot turn back time to make it so. I can applaud your originality, Monseiur Vanderhoof, but find little else in such a proposal to accept.

Thusly, I vote as follows:

de Merode Executive Branch Proposal: Aye
 

unmerged(718634)

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Merode Executive Branch Proposal-Aye

Pierre-Claude de España, Delegate of Arlon
 

ThunderHawk3

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The Constitutional Convention of 1833, Day 1-2, Part 1​


The Constitutional Convention of 1833 began with no small measure of excitement. Delegates from all over Belgium converged on the convention hall, the former residence of the Dutch governor of Belgium (and the Austrian before him). Attempts by the guards outside the convention, poorly trained and inexperienced in dealing with crowds, to bar foreign advisers from entry quickly failed. Some presented genuine papers and were allowed in by guards unaware that they were meant to be barred, others snuck in, but by midday, the convention had given up trying to expel representatives from abroad. As it transpired, they had enough problems at home.

url_zps0755f103.jpg

1. The Convention Hall​

The convention began with a fierce debate between monarchists and republicans. Michel Daret, delegate from Liège and prominent industrialist, quickly emerged as the leading liberal voice in the hall when he introduced the Bill of Rights to the convention. Conservative and catholic monarchists led by Sébastien Delcroix, Bishop of Brabant, quickly introduced the idea of a King of Belgium[1]. Initial debate between liberal republicans and conservative monarchists was fierce and fiery. The Bishop of Brabant and Pierre Claude de España, an Arlonian delegate and non-catholic, could be heard shouting scripture at each other from opposite sides of the room. After more than an hour of debate (sometimes accompanied by fruitless argument and abuse), Daret conceded that the republicans were at a numerical disadvantage and agreed to a constitutional monarchy.

Nevertheless, the early compromise seemed to do little for the progress of the convention. Though Delcroix and Daret had agreed long enough to draft a joint bill of rights (amending articles relating to religious freedom and that of the press), tardy delegates swelled the ranks of the National Congress. Soon, little could be heard over the din of discussion. So may articles were proposed on the first day that the clerk of the convention lost his voice trying to read them all and a replacement had to be found. Someone - history does not record who - noted that many of the proposals generally shared their institutions of government but differed in minor particulars. Thereafter, Maximiliaan van Brabant proposed a Structure of Government Article, outlining the general institutions in the Belgium-to-be.

Despite this progress, the chaos of the convention continued. Despite large support for his proposal, Van Brabant had to wait almost an hour for a second as he struggled to make himself heard over the background of the convention. It was midday before the article came to a vote. When the article was finally read, its proponents wished it to be passed quickly by unanimous consent - and might have done so, but for an objection. The liberals had long since conceded the existence of a monarch to the other side, so this objection came from a most unexpected quarter. The absolutists, lead by Jan-Aleksandr Ivanovich van Steinbeck-Antonov, announced that they took exception with this article because - they declared - Belgium should have not a King, but an Emperor.

Even the Bishop of Brabant was struck dumb for several moments following this declaration. Chaos again swept through the hall and the chair had trouble restoring order. Thereafter, the Brabant Structure of Government Proposal - and many other articles - would refer to the "monarch" rather than the "king" of Belgium.

As Brabant's Proposal went to a vote-by-open-ballot with a two-day time limit (along with a legislative proposal of De España's, which would later be withdrawn), the hall returned to chaos with a din so powerful that one newspaper outside claimed that the crowds could hear shouting in the streets and see the windows of the building shake. For those inside, it seemed little could increase the chaos at the convention hall.

Then Wilhelm Vanderhoof walked in.

[1] The first mention of the King of Belgium in the convention was actually in De Velde - Count of Antwerp's - Form of Government proposal, but the Bishop of Brabant introduced the idea as a stand-alone article.


-------------------------


Player Actions Needed:
Nothing new. Second part incoming.

 

Scrapknight

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I feel the best candidate for our King is Auguste de Beauharnais. Not only is his lineage spectacular, he is related to the man who I bled for at Borodino. I would love to serve under another Napoleon. Barring that, I would have Prince Louis as our King. Saying that, I don't mind Prince Leopold. However, I would rather die than serve an Austrian. I will not have the men who subjugated us for a century to rule us again. I simply cannot allow a Hapsburg on the throne of Belgium. It would be an insult to everything our Revolution stood for. It would be like placing a Dutchman or a Prussian on our throne.

I concur with Monseiur Damseaux in all regards in this matter except with respect to his first choice. Not only did the elder Bonaparte end a revolution that held much promise (while they committed many crimes, the republic, in my own opinion, was lost before it could secure itself and put its enlightened constitution truly into practice,) he ground up men as if they were expendable as gunpowder. My own father was seduced by his grand ambitions, joined his armies, and died in Germany on his mad march to Russia. I know firsthand the treachery of Bonapartes, good sir, and could never accept one on the throne of our proud nation.

On the other hand, while Archduke Charles seems like a reasonable man personally, I agree that it would be unwise to place an Austrian on the throne of an independent state that, lest we forget, was once wrongfully termed the "Austrian Netherlands." It is a step above a Dutchman, but not by much. I feel that Prince Louis is by far the superior candidate. Prince Leopold is as bland as milquetoast and does not strike me as terribly competent, but he would suffice. My second choice, barring Prince Louis, would be a native Belgian, and I suggest we discuss suitable candidates among that group as well.
 

Fingon888

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I concur with Monseiur Damseaux in all regards in this matter except with respect to his first choice. Not only did the elder Bonaparte end a revolution that held much promise (while they committed many crimes, the republic, in my own opinion, was lost before it could secure itself and put its enlightened constitution truly into practice,) he ground up men as if they were expendable as gunpowder. My own father was seduced by his grand ambitions, joined his armies, and died in Germany on his mad march to Russia. I know firsthand the treachery of Bonapartes, good sir, and could never accept one on the throne of our proud nation.

On the other hand, while Archduke Charles seems like a reasonable man personally, I agree that it would be unwise to place an Austrian on the throne of an independent state that, lest we forget, was once wrongfully termed the "Austrian Netherlands." It is a step above a Dutchman, but not by much. I feel that Prince Louis is by far the superior candidate. Prince Leopold is as bland as milquetoast and does not strike me as terribly competent, but he would suffice. My second choice, barring Prince Louis, would be a native Belgian, and I suggest we discuss suitable candidates among that group as well.

We will never agree regarding the good Emperor. Other than that, I am glad that you recognize the error of choosing an Austrian. I am the only one in here who was born in the Austrian Netherlands. Albeit, it was for a year, but my father was a freedom fighter against the German bastards.
 

Plutonium95

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I feel the best candidate for our King is Auguste de Beauharnais. Not only is his lineage spectacular, he is related to the man who I bled for at Borodino. I would love to serve under another Napoleon. Barring that, I would have Prince Louis as our King. Saying that, I don't mind Prince Leopold. However, I would rather die than serve an Austrian. I will not have the men who subjugated us for a century to rule us again. I simply cannot allow a Hapsburg on the throne of Belgium. It would be an insult to everything our Revolution stood for. It would be like placing a Dutchman or a Prussian on our throne.

I had not considered Auguste de Beauharnais before. I greatly admire Napoleon and the work he did to weaken the monarchies of Europe while raising up the people, and I would imagine Auguste would hold the same values. He would certainly be my second choice. That just gave me a thought, what if we all list our top three Monarchs, giving the top choice three points, the second choice two points, and the last choice one point. Then we would add up all of the points at the end and the person with the most points would be the selected as the King of Belgium. Since most people have multiple monarchs they might be willing to support this would allow them to support multiple people to varying degrees.

Merode Executive Proposal: Yes
((I supported the bill before you officially called for a vote, so I wasn't sure if I should "recast" my vote.))

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret
 
Last edited:

Fingon888

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I had not considered Auguste de Beauharnais before. I greatly admire Napoleon and the work he did to weaken the monarchies of Europe while raising up the people, and I would imagine Auguste would hold the same values. He would certainly be my second choice. That just gave me a thought, what if we all list our top three Monarchs, giving the top choice three points, the second choice two points, and the last choice one point. Then we would add up all of the points at the end and the person with the most points would be the selected as the King of Belgium. Since most people have multiple monarchs they might be willing to support this would allow them to support multiple people to varying degrees.

Merode Executive Proposal: Yes

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

That is a fine proposal, Monsieur Daret. I certainly agree.
 

Scrapknight

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I suppose we will never agree on Monseiur Bonaparte, which is a shame, really.

More to the point, I was considering such a ranked-choice vote myself, but I would also like to put forward my own proposal regarding monarch selection. I would appreciate it if my fellow delegates could comment.

Savarin Proposal for Monarch Selection
1. A list of desired candidates for monarch shall be compiled, which shall be ratified by a majority of the constitutional convention.
2. A ballot consisting of the selected names shall be presented to the people of Belgium, who shall vote for up to two candidates.
3. The current legislative body of Belgium shall, from amongst the two candidates that received the most votes, select a monarch by an absolute majority.
4. Provided this candidate meets all other requirements as outlined by the Constitution, he shall be crowned King of the Belgians.

I feel that this incorporates the popular will, but still allows us a great deal of choice. It also is a safety valve against ridiculous candidates getting too far along in the process (I highly doubt the people would vote for an Austrian, for example.) What are your thoughts, gentlemen?
 

etranger01

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Given the confusion expressed over the meaning of "absolute majority", I have clarified the language of my proposal to indicate that both an override of the royal veto and forced abdication require a two-thirds majority of the legislature.

Also, in case it was unclear, I am voting Aye for my executive branch proposal.

Adrian Felix de Merode, Marquis of Westerlo
 

Plutonium95

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I suppose we will never agree on Monseiur Bonaparte, which is a shame, really.

More to the point, I was considering such a ranked-choice vote myself, but I would also like to put forward my own proposal regarding monarch selection. I would appreciate it if my fellow delegates could comment.

Savarin Proposal for Monarch Selection
1. A list of desired candidates for monarch shall be compiled, which shall be ratified by a majority of the constitutional convention.
2. A ballot consisting of the selected names shall be presented to the people of Belgium, who shall vote for up to two candidates.
3. The current legislative body of Belgium shall, from amongst the two candidates that received the most votes, select a monarch by an absolute majority.
4. Provided this candidate meets all other requirements as outlined by the Constitution, he shall be crowned King of the Belgians.

I feel that this incorporates the popular will, but still allows us a great deal of choice. It also is a safety valve against ridiculous candidates getting too far along in the process (I highly doubt the people would vote for an Austrian, for example.) What are your thoughts, gentlemen?

You propose an interesting idea, and I would absolutely support giving the people a choice in who rules over them. The issue I see with this is how we would go about organizing a nation wide vote before the end of the convention.

((How would we determine the will of the people in game terms for the two possibel monarchs? Just have ThunderHawk decide?))

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret
 

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You propose an interesting idea, and I would absolutely support giving the people a choice in who rules over them. The issue I see with this is how we would go about organizing a nation wide vote before the end of the convention.

((How would we determine the will of the people in game terms for the two possibel monarchs? Just have ThunderHawk decide?))

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

I don't believe we need a vote before the end of the Convention. We should pass a constitution and then hold legislative elections, the Monarch vote could be held at the same time and then the newly elected or selected legislators will vote amoung the top two vote getters.
 

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I would like to hear the opinion of a candidate for King. I understand that Belgium may not feel willing to have a Spanish born monarch, but he is a great candidate if the King is to be our main diplomatic symbol. The man I propose is the Marquis of Labrador, a very accomplished diplomat, Pedro Gomez Labrador. Although understanding he will likely not be a popular candidate I would support Auguste de Beauharnais.

Pierre-Claude de España, Delegate of Arlon