Edge of Europe - A Belgian Interactive AAR

[ThunderHawk3]

De España-van der Wyngaert Joint Legislative Article

Spoiler

I. The Legislative Branch is to be divided into two halves
the House of Senators and House of Representatives
II. Members of Both Houses are held to the same responsibilities under the law as any other Belgian
III. To be elected to either House one must be a Belgian Citizen
IV. If one is not a natural born Belgian, defined as the lands of Flanders and Wallonia, he must have been a citizen for 10 years to be eligible to run for either House
IV. Members of either House can be rejected for the holding of a criminal record
V. Members of either House cannot be holding a Judicial or Military Position
The House of Representatives
I. Members of the HoR are members of the Lower and Middle Classes
II. Belgium is to be divided into 11 major divisions. Five in Flanders, Five in Wallonia, and 1 Neutral Zone of Brussels
III. Each division is further divided into 10 Districts each electing itself a Representative
IV. Thus the House is made up of 110 Members
V. All Representatives are elected through the Democratic Process by their Constituents
VI. Representatives may be Partisan or non-Partisan
VII. Legislation is to be first proposed in the HoR
VIII. Said Legislation is then to be passed or rejected by the HoR
IX. A Speaker, leader of the HoR’s majority party, is to act as the liason of the HoR
X. The Minimum Age of a Representative is 26
XI. Representatives are to act in civility and common decency whilst in the HoR Chambers
The House of Senators
I. The House of Senators is to be fully made up of by the Upper Class
III. The HoS is made up of 80 members
IV. Fourty of which are appointed by the King and Fourty by the Prime Minister
V. Senators may be partisan or non-partisan
VI. Senators may not propose legislature, but can do so through
via a Representative
VII. The HoS’s Primary function is to further debate Bills that have passed the HoR and pass or reject said Bill
VIII. The ethnic breakdown is not to exceed 15% in favor of either Walloons or Flemings as to avoid ethnic domination by either side over the House
IX. A Speaker, Leader of the HoS’s majority party, is to be elected as the liason of the HoS
X. The Senate is not based on any national administrative divisions
XI. The minimum age of a Senator is 30
XII. Senate members are to act in civility and common decency whilst in the HoS Chambers

The Vanderhoof Proclamation of Belgian Trade

Spoiler

I. All Belgian Trade shall be free of any and all government interference outside of the House of Trade
II. The government shall assist all Belgian trade as deemed for by the Minister of Trade

Ministry of Trade

I. The Minister of Trade shall be elected by the House of Traders
II. The House of Traders shall consist of all bankers, traders, merchants and members of the economic community that can match the buy in
III. The buy in of the House of Trade (hereafter HoT) is 100.000 pounds sterling
IV. There is not limitation on the number of representives in the HoT
V. Corporation are hereafter defined as persons and are entitled to a single seat if they can match the buy in
VI. A member of the HoT is referred to as a "Trader" and may be addressed as "His Honourable"
VII. The HoT can elect one (1) member to stand as the Minister of Trade for the government
VIII. If the Minister of Trade loses confidence of either the monarch or the HoT, he may be recalled and a different individual may be appointed by the monarch or elected by the monarch.
IX. The Minister of Trade is in control of all decisions regarding government policy on trade
X. All money raised by the buy in into the HoT will be entered into the Government coffers

The Vanderhoof Defense of Private Industry Bill

Spoiler

I. All Private Industries are constutionally excerpt from taxation by the Belgian government
II. All Private Industries are excempt from Government legislation
III. In no way can the government ever seize, own or otherwise unlawfully control Private Industries

Joint Bill of Rights:

Spoiler

I. All people born in Belgian territory, or having at least one parent who is a citizen, have the right to claim Belgium citizenship. In the event of a person with a Belgian parent being born outside the country, they must apply for citizenship, but when granted it they shall be a full citizen.
II. Immigrants and other non-Belgians can apply for Belgian citizenship after having lived, and worked, in Belgium for a period of no less than ten years. Marriage to a Belgian citizen does not qualify one as being a Belgian citizen themselves.
III. All men will be viewed as equal under the law, with no prejudice based on race, social class, or beliefs.
IV. The state religion of Belgium shall be Roman Catholicism, but all religions shall be protected under the law, and the people of Belgium shall have the right to freedom of religion and worship.
V. All people shall have a right to freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and the right to assemble, which shall not be abridged.
a. The Freedom of the Press shall be moderately restricted by the Government, but only in the case of actively trying to dismantle or otherwise seriously harm the Belgian state. Political dissension and disagreement with government practices are still protected forms of speech.
VI. All people have a right to their property. It may not be seized by the government except in cases of it being illegally obtained, or for use as evidence in legal proceedings, after which it must be returned to its rightful owner. In order for property to be seized a judge must issue a warrant clearly providing an explanation as to why.
VII. A reasonable right to privacy held by all citizens, and no search may occur, except in the cases directly defined by the law.
VIII. The right to a trial by a jury of peers shall be preserved under all circumstances, no matter the crime.
IX. The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Player Actions Needed:
In addition to the outstanding vote on the Structure of Government Act and unanimous consent request on the Language Act:

The De España-Van der Wyngaert Joint Legislative Article, Vanderhoof Proclamation of Belgian Trade, and Vanderhoof Defense of Private Industry Bill are all up for a vote.

And the Daret-Delcroix Joint Bill of Rights requests passage by unanimous consent.

Sample Ballot:

Structure of Government Act: Yes/No/Abstain (Most of you have already voted on this)
De España-Van der Wyngaert Joint Legislative Article: Yes/No/Abstain
Vanderhoof Proclamation of Belgian Trade: Yes/No/Abstain
Vanderhoof Defense of Private Industry Bill: Yes/No/Abstain

Sample Objection:

I object to the Language Article or I object to the Daret-Delcroix Joint Bill of Rights.

If you don't object, then you don't need to post anything.

Voting period for the Structure of Government Act ends at noon PST on the 12th (7 PM GMT). All other voting periods end at 6:30 PM PST on the 12th (1:30 AM GMT on the 13th).

The consent period for the Language Article ends at 4 PM PST on the 11th (11 PM GMT). The consent period for the Daret-Delcroix Joint Bill of Rights ends at 6:30 PM PST on the 11th (1:30 AM GMT on the 12th).

 

[Ab Ovo]

I would like to present this again for consideration and a second:

Article concerning the Governance of Belgium

I. That the Belgian state be known as the United Provinces of Belgium
II. That the Belgian state be a confederal body; consisting of the Grand Duchies of Flanders and Wallonia
III. That the Grand Duchy of Flanders and the Grand Duchy of Wallonia be united in personal and perpetual union under the Belgian crown
IV. That the Belgian Crown be represented by the King of the Belgians; whose powers are outlined thusly:

• IVa. the King of the Belgians is head and supreme titular executive of the Belgian state and her offices
• IVb. the King of the Belgians carries in personal union the perpetual dignities of Grand Duke of Wallonia and Grand Duke of Flanders
• IVc. the King of the Belgians holds the power to convoke and dismiss the legislature on the advice of the Government
• IVd. the King of the Belgians may freely give or withhold Royal Assent; which passes a bill into law
• IVe. the King of the Belgians may create dignities and titles as he sees fit; and acts as the fount of honour

V. That both the Grand Duchy of Wallonia and the Grand Duchy of Flanders maintain their own respective unicameral legislatures
VI. That the legislature of the United Provinces consist of a House of Lords and a House of Commons; the former consisting of 20 hereditary peers appointed by His Majesty, the latter being popularly elected and composed of 200 members; 10 of whom appointed five and five by the Royal legislatures
VII. That the Head of Government of the Belgian state be the Prime Minister; who is to be elected popularly
VIII. That the Heads of Government for Flanders and Wallonia be given the title Chancellor; and be appointed by their respective legislatures
IX. That all unitary matters of defense and foreign policy be given up to the King and the United legislature; but all other matters delegated to their respective national legislatures

I also recommend that due to the anarchy and general disorganisation pervading this convention; that we address each issue individually before moving on. For example, we spend a day discussing the role of the Monarch or executive; propose the articles dealing with that specific issue, and then vote on those articles proposed before moving on. In this way we can go through the creation of the constitution in a orderly manner.

~Dominique Lévesque,
Delegate from Mons

 

[Otto of england]

De España-Van der Wyngaert Joint Legislative Article: Abstain
Vanderhoof Proclamation of Belgian Trade: No Not the time for this.
Vanderhoof Defense of Private Industry Bill: No Not the time for this.

- Fabian van de Velde, Count of Ypres

 

[Plutonium95]

I would like to cast my vote now. I cannot remember if I voted for the Structure of Government act, but as it seems guaranteed to pass I will let it go.

De España-Van der Wyngaert Joint Legislative Article: Yes
Vanderhoof Proclamation of Belgian Trade: No
Vanderhoof Defense of Private Industry Bill: No

Vanderhoof, do not necessarily view this as a lack support for your ideas, but they should not be in the constitution.

Lévesque, I agree with you about removing the anarchy that plauges this hall. Let us have some organization in the future.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

 

[hoi2geek]

The De España-Van der Wyngaert Legislative Article: NAY
The Vanderhoof Bills and the Official Language Act: AYE

-Jan-Aleksandr Ivanovich van Steinbeck-Antonov
Councillor of Antwerp

 

[Dadarian]

You are quite right monsieur Damseaux, the only one of Vanderhoof's acts that could even conceivably be a constitutional article would be the one setting up the House of Traders, and even that is a stretch. With that in mind I have decided I shall not support Vanderhoof's proposals at this convention, though I likely will support at least some as laws to be passed upon the formation of government.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

((By the way I was looking at the Belgian Trading one, how much is 100,000 pounds sterling in today's money?))

What stops a government from abusing their powers? Or a monarch or a company or the military?

The history of man is covered in the wreckage of ruined hopes and false dreams. We cannot allow fear of the future to restrain us to the past.

I ask all true industrialists, merchants and bankers to support my economic bills. If this government is trusted to be benevolent to their people, a corporation must be trusted to be benevolent to their employees.

Let not worries bother you in such a small thing like writing a constitution.

His August Presence, Wilhelm I. Vanderhoof Delegate for and Lord Protector of Ghent

 

[ThunderHawk3]

I also recommend that due to the anarchy and general disorganisation pervading this convention; that we address each issue individually before moving on. For example, we spend a day discussing the role of the Monarch or executive; propose the articles dealing with that specific issue, and then vote on those articles proposed before moving on. In this way we can go through the creation of the constitution in a orderly manner.

~Dominique Lévesque,
Delegate from Mons

((I generally agree with this plan - this is getting a bit chaotic. I may announce a topic for the day as soon as I draw up a schedule just to make this debate a little more ordered.))

 

[Otto of england]

I'm hopping this is a better compromise. Please I would like all critisim so I can hopefully improve it

The van de Velde Form of Government 4.0
I. It will be split into 4 parts, the King, The Prime Minister, the Upper house and the Lower House.
II. Belgium is to be a unitary nation.

1. The powers of the King
1I. The King shares Supreme Executive power in running the country with the Prime Minister.
1II. The King nominates people to the Upper House.
1III. The King in times of war is the Commander and Chief.
1IV. The King is to represent Belgium as Head of State.
1V. The King is not to participate in Lower House or Upper house debate.
1VI. The King can sit in on Lower House or Upper house debate.
1VII. The King cannot vote in Lower House or the Upper House.
1VIII. The King may exercise the right to veto, unless either house has a 2/3 majority.
1IX. The Succession is to be primogeniture
1X. The King may dissolve Parliament at any point starting a new election, on recommendation of the Prime Minister.
1XI. The King has the right to ennoble individuals who have served Belgium exemplary.
1XI A. Titles include Knight, Baron, Viscount, Count, Marquis and Duke.

2. The Upper House.
2I. The Upper house will be made by appointments for life.
2II. The Upper House will be set to 20 members.
2III. The Upper House reviews bills proposed in the lower house, and can send them back to be redone by the lower house.
2IV. The members of the Upper House cannot have party affiliations.
2V. Members of the Upper House vote on whether a nominated person should enter the Upper House as a member or not, the vote only requires a 51% majority.
2VI. The Members of the Upper House are to appoint a speaker of the house once a year and no person can be speaker for 2 consecutive years.
2VII. The Speaker of the House is to try to make sure debate stays on topic for that year.

3. The Prime Minister
3I. The Leader of the party with the most seats becomes the prime minister.
3II. The Prime Minister appoints cabinet members.
3III. The Prime Minister can call an election at anytime.
3IV. The Cabinet is to consist of the Prime Minister, Foreign Minister, Minister of War, Minister of Finance, Minister of the Interior and Minister of the Justice.
3V. The Prime Minister shares supreme executive power with the King.
3VI. The Prime Minister can request that the king dismiss members of Parliament if they are not doing their job properly.

4. The Lower House.
4I. The Lower House is elected in a General election that must happen at least every 5 years.
4II. An election can be forced with a 2/3 Non confidence vote against the current government.
4III. The second largest party is the official opposition and can form a shadow cabinet.
4IV. The Lower House can propose laws and send them to the upper house for review.
4V. The Lower House is to be proportional representative body.
4VI. If its been 5 years and their hasn’t been an election then the session of government is considered void and every bill they attempt to pass is also considered void.

- Fabian van de Velde, Count of Ypres

 

[Fingon888]

The De Espana-Van der Wyngaert Legislative Article: Abstain
The Vanderhoof Bills: Nay This is not the time to be discussing economic policy.

 

[Somberg]

De España-Van der Wyngaert Joint Legislative Article: Aye
Vanderhoof Proclamation of Belgian Trade: Nay
Vanderhoof Defense of Private Industry Bill: Nay

~ Willem Loewen, Mayor of and Delegate from Antwerp

 

[Dadarian]

I vote accordingly:

Vanderhoof Articles: Aye
Joint Rights Bill: Aye
Legislative Article: Abstain

I see that people do not support a dedicated action towards the future economic structure of Belgium. Does not the economy matter?

 

[Keperry]

Name: Lucas Aalden
Date of Birth: February 10, 1798
Place of Birth: Ostend, Flanders, Belgium (then French Republic)
Nationality: Flemish
Ideology: Liberal nationalist
Background: Lucas Aalden was born to a reasonably wealthy family of Ostend merchants who chafed under French occupation and the blockades and restrictions to trade that Napoleon imposed. Young Lucas saw this as an affront to the nation rather than simply to the family business, and the experience sparked in him a passion for the ideals of independence that lasted into adulthood. Because of the global nature of his family's trade he became aware of a number of global issues, and the one that most captured his imagination was the struggle of the South Americans against Spain that he equated with the struggle of the Belgians against the French and now the Dutch. At age 21, he left his studies to volunteer with the army of Gran Colombia, and fought with them for several years in the final stages of the Bolivarian wars of independence. The experience reaffirmed his dedication to independence and liberalism, while tempering that dedication with a wariness for sectionalism, republicanism, and those who would attempt to seize power for themselves. Unfortunately, his left leg was injured in the battlefield and he was left unable to walk without the use of a cane, but this was not entirely a loss--while recuperating, he met a criollo woman from Caracas who he married and returned with to Belgium in 1823. Since then, he has set his energies to freeing the Catholic South from the oppression of the north, and his efforts (or, rather, the efforts of a great many people trying to accomplish the same thing) have finally come to fruition. Attending the convention as a representative of Ostend, his main concerns are now to ensure that the form of government will be a reasonably liberal constitutional monarchy and that Belgium will come to see itself as a single nation rather than fracturing due to ethnic and regional divisions.

 

[Fingon888]

I vote accordingly:

Vanderhoof Articles: Aye
Joint Rights Bill: Aye
Legislative Article: Abstain

I see that people do not support a dedicated action towards the future economic structure of Belgium. Does not the economy matter?

The economy does matter. However, it is the responsibility of the government to adjust economic policy in a manner that allows for adaptation. What works today may not work in twenty years. We must build this with a sense of the big picture. If we put economic matters in the Constitution we have limited ourselves and have doomed our economy. Individual bills will be passed in the coming months and years, but we writing the big picture. I ask, what other constitution in the history of the world has included economic policy?

 

[Somberg]

I vote accordingly:

Vanderhoof Articles: Aye
Joint Rights Bill: Aye
Legislative Article: Abstain

I see that people do not support a dedicated action towards the future economic structure of Belgium. Does not the economy matter?

Meneer Vanderhoof, those articles are more suited for bills that can be passed after the constitution is ratified. At the moment we are trying to do more important things, such as deciding the details of Belgium's government. Such trivial economic matters are of no concern to us at the moment.

~ Willem Loewen, Mayor of and Delegate from Antwerp

 

[Plutonium95]

Monsieur de Velde, I commend your work to adjust until a compromise is met. I am glad to see that the restrictions on being selected for the Upper House have been removed. That said I think you will not find a compromise while the monarch is in full control of the Upper House.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

 

[ThunderHawk3]

((Thee dost start an AAR of interactive was without me!? Pity be the fool XD))

Name: Lord Protector Wilhelm Vanderhoof of Ghent

[...]

When knowledge of the overwhelming revolution in the south, he marched into the Dutch Governor of Ghent's house as a friend and shot him in the back. He styled himself Lord Protector of Ghent and turne the city into his private fiefdom.

He has finally found someone worth trusting enough to leave Ghent under a "regency" and allow his entrance to the Convention.

((The king of slime has arrived))

Dadarian, while you're free to give your character a noble title, I take exception to the idea that he's actually ruling over Ghent. Estates are fine, but you can't have - as you put it - a city for a private fiefdom.

This goes for everyone else too.

Debate schedule incoming.

Shortly after dawn, as the Constitutional deliberations continued a message was received from the Provisional Government saying that Wilhelm Vanderhoof's friend in Ghent had been arrested for loitering in the former Governor's mansion; and that any self-proclaimed dignity of Vanderhoof was unquestionably illegitimate.

Relax - he can't be ruler supreme of Ghent.

An additional note on randomly making things happen - I know theAhawk lets you get away with this in FoE, but in this thread, you can't make things happen beyond your character's personal control if it affects other players. You can't, for example, say that there's rioting in Brussels and expect there to be riots in Brussels.

 

[Otto of england]

Monsieur de Velde, I commend your work to adjust until a compromise is met. I am glad to see that the restrictions on being selected for the Upper House have been removed. That said I think you will not find a compromise while the monarch is in full control of the Upper House.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

What is the minimum you would like to see in for it? My original idea was proplemmatic since it grid locked appointments.

- Fabian van de Velde, Count of Ypres

 

[Plutonium95]

What is the minimum you would like to see in for it? My original idea was proplemmatic since it grid locked appointments.

- Fabian van de Velde, Count of Ypres

There seems to be a lot of support in the liberal community for de Espana's new bill, which has half of the Upper House appointed by the Monarch and half by the Prime Minister. I think de Espana himself has said he is willing to grant 75% of the appointments to the monarch, but I am unsure how that would go over for the rest of the liberals, personally I would try to resist it. I think incorporating ideas from that bill would go a long way to securing the liberal vote.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

 

[Otto of england]

There seems to be a lot of support in the liberal community for de Espana's new bill, which has half of the Upper House appointed by the Monarch and half by the Prime Minister. I think de Espana himself has said he is willing to grant 75% of the appointments to the monarch, but I am unsure how that would go over for the rest of the liberals, personally I would try to resist it.

Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret

My only problem with the appointments by the Prime Minister is it makes them partisan, my intent is to have a non partisan upper House.

- Fabian van de Velde, Count of Ypres

 

[Dadarian]

((Oh fluff, there goes my entire character. No more power seizing nouveau riche merchant seeking personal power in a chaotic power vacuum.

And you've done stuff worse then I have in this sense Ab))

A letter arrives for Wilhelm, who sighed upon reading it

Well, that was fun while it lasted, Ghent has always been a nice city, too bad a government came in. Well, I can keep the title.

He crumbled up the letter and threw it away

Back to everyday life, I see not why the rights of private enterprise, bankers, merchants and economists are by heard as loudly as the other members.

Does not a banker be worthy of the money he makes on interest? Does not the creditor be able to give credit without fear of government invasion? Does not an industrialist deserve the sweat of his work without the government leeching his hard earned profit?

I see that you all seem well, but you all seek economic insecurity.

Vanderhoof then dismisses his courtiers, and gives them money to return to Ghent