The thing is, that the important articles have either reached a consensus or the debate has ended. We should not be beating dead horses in this room.
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I Second the call for unanimous consent of The Daret/Delcroix Joint Bill of Rights.
- Fabian van de Velde, Count of Ypres
- Fabian van de Velde, Count of Ypres
I'll open voting on this and other bills that have received seconds in half an hour.
But we haven't really reached a consensus, the convention is still split on what powers the Kings should have, how the prime minister should be selected, how the legislature should be broken up and appointed (though at least we have a proposal that has been seconded for it), the judicial system, etc. In all honesty, though we have had discussion, we haven't gotten anywhere on this constitution.
Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret
I meant we have a consensus on the rights of our citizens. The debate has been exhausted for those other matters.
I see, I misunderstood what you were saying. I can't even begin to imagine how we will come out of the trenches and address those issues I named though.
Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret
Yes so its time we get it off our chests and get an unanimous vote on one to free us up to move on. We have to take this methodically and in an orderly fashion if we are to make Belgium the best nation in europe.
- Fabian van de Velde, Count of Ypres
Indeed. A vote will have to occur. Hopefully this delegation chooses wisely.
Gentlemen of Belgium,
I would like to present you my own vision of Belgian Constitution. While I understand that the winds in this Convetion are now blowing in other direction, I'm sure the ideas of this Constitution will most certainly be useful for those gentlemen among Monarchists who do not wish to be ruled by a tyrant.
Of course, this is just a basic idea. All the mechanisms and rights would need some polishing and there may be several flaws in the system, but I'm sure you get the idea.
We, citizens of Belgian Republic, Flemish or Wallonian, Catholic or Protestant, bearing in mind the responsibility of defending our recently gained independence and freedom, hereby declare our will to build and secure civil liberties in our state with the help of God Almighty and the recently established and approved Articles of Belgian Republic as a constitution for Belgium.
Also, I would like to express my opinion on several articles:
I vote NO on Van Brabant Structure of Government Article Act for obvious reasons regarding my political orientation.
I Second Vanderhoof Proclamation of Belgian Trade and Vanderhoof Defense of Private Industry Bill. No matter who Mr. Vanderhoof is and despite of mentioning monarchy, those bills deserve our support.
Du Sint-Niklaas Language Article has my full support.
Martin de Graaf, delegate of Bruges
I would like to present you my own vision of Belgian Constitution. While I understand that the winds in this Convetion are now blowing in other direction, I'm sure the ideas of this Constitution will most certainly be useful for those gentlemen among Monarchists who do not wish to be ruled by a tyrant.
Of course, this is just a basic idea. All the mechanisms and rights would need some polishing and there may be several flaws in the system, but I'm sure you get the idea.
Articles of Belgian Republic
Preamble
Preamble
We, citizens of Belgian Republic, Flemish or Wallonian, Catholic or Protestant, bearing in mind the responsibility of defending our recently gained independence and freedom, hereby declare our will to build and secure civil liberties in our state with the help of God Almighty and the recently established and approved Articles of Belgian Republic as a constitution for Belgium.
Chapter I – Fundamental Articles
- Belgian Republic is a unitary and indivisible state.
- Belgian territory is subjected to no foreign power. Any changes of this territory are void unless approved by a qualified majority in both Convent and Senate.
- Power is divided into three branches. All three branches control each other. Concentration of power coming from those is strictly forbidden.
- The citizens of Belgium are the only source of power in Belgian Republic.
- Belgian Republic is a secular state. No religion shall receive any kind of advantage against the other.
- The foundations of republican system and basic civil rights may not be subject to changes or suspending and enjoy specific protection.
- Changes to Articles of Belgian Republic are possible when approved by qualified majority of both chambers.
- The capital of Belgian Republic is Brussels.
- The state symbols are Coat of Arms, Flag, Anthem, State Colours and State Seal.
- Any man born in Belgian territory has a right for Belgian citizenship. Any man may pledge for citizenship, but no citizen may be deprived of it without a reason.
Chapter II – Legislature - All legislative power belongs to Parliament of Belgium.
- Parliament consists of two chambers: Convent (Lower House) and Senate (Upper House).
- Convent shall have 250 deputies and Praetor.
- Praetor is the chairman of Convent. Praetor leads the session of Convent and may vote in case of a draw.
- Office of Praetor is given to the leader of winning party’s candidate list. If the position goes vacant, his seat is taken by the oldest member of the chamber until new one is elected.
- Elections to Convent shall be held every 4 years by secret ballot. Only male citizens of Belgium older than 30 years who pay taxes are allowed to vote or candidate.
- Convent is elected by proportional system. Political parties create their list of candidates, voters may choose only one candidate list.
- Convent is the supreme legislative body. All law proposals shall be addressed to the Praetor.
- Right of initiative belongs to heads of self-governance, members of Convent and Consuls together with their governments.
- No Delegate of Convent may be disciplined for his voting or speeches with the exception of art. 6). For criminal prosecution, Praetor’s allowance is demanded. No Delegate may be detained under no circumstances.
- Delegate’s mandate begins by electing and ends by death, losing sanity, abstaining, having a function causing violation of article 3 or expiration of his term.
- Session of Convent starts after its election. Convent assembles for its first meeting in 30 days after elections.
- Session of Convent may be ended by Consul with Senate’s qualified approval and permission from the Supreme Court of Belgium. If the Court does not grant the permit, Consul loses his office.
- Convent may choose to end the Session itself by qualified majority. New elections must take place in 90 days.
- Senate shall have 100 deputies and Censor.
- Censor is the chairman of Senate. Censor leads the session of Senate and may vote in case of a draw.
- Office of Censor is appointed by Consul.
- Senate is appointed by Consul with approval of Convent.
- 10 seats in Senate belong to the Churches, 50 belong to the wealthiest landowners, 30 belong to the capitalists and 10 belong to the most notable retired militarymen. Those 100 seats are equally divided between Flemish and Wallonian nations.
- Senate approves or declines the proposals from Convent. If a proposal is declined, Convent may overrule this decision with a qualified majority. If the Senate does not make a decision in 60 days, it is considered as approval.
- Senators enjoy the same protection as Delegates of Convent.
- Consul may veto the proposal. To overrule Consul’s veto, qualified majority of both chambers is required.
- Approved proposals are signed by Consul and published in accordance with law.
- Approval in chambers is given by majority of present Delegates or Senators.
- Qualified majority means at least 3/5 majority of all Delegates or Senators.
- Qualified Majority is required when the Articles of Belgian Republic specify; otherwise, standard approval is sufficient.
Chapter III – Executive - Consul is the Head of State and executive.
- Consul is elected by a popular vote for 4 years. No man may serve more than 1 term.
- Consul is elected together with Second Consul, who may take his place in case of death or serious illness. Otherwise, new elections are held in 90 days.
- Right to vote is the same as for Convent.
- Only male citizens of Belgium older than 45 years may run for election. Candidate is nominated by at least 20 Delegates or 10 Senators.
- Consul is accountable to Censor and Senate.
- Consul may be impeached by approval in both chambers and following trial before the Supreme Court, or lose the office according to constitution.
- Upon his election, Consul nominates his government. Government must be approved by Senate, otherwise any actions it takes are considered void. Consul must also take the oath before Censor. Those actions shall happen in 30 days.
- Consul may resign into hands of Censor.
- Consul is the supreme commander of armed forces; Approval of both chambers is necessary for actions outside Belgian territory.
- Consul also represents Belgium abroad, has the right of pardon and amnesty, may award decorations and call elections.
- Consul may not be prosecuted under any circumstances except for treason.
Chapter IV – Judiciary - Judicial power is granted independence from any intervention.
- The highest judicial body is Supreme Court of Belgium.
- Supreme Court has 11 judges. All are appointed.
- Judge must be eligible for Consul.
- 5 judges are appointed by Belgian Chamber of Advocates and Judges, 3 by Consul with Senate‘s approval and 3 by Praetor with Convent’s approval.
- All Judges are protected in the same way as Consul. They have no term and may only be impeached by Censor’s proposal supported by qualified majority in both chambers. Censor may only impeach up to 1 judge every year.
- Supreme Court is charged with control of proposals already signed by Consul. If Supreme Court finds the proposal unconstitutional, it is cancelled. This cannot be overruled.
- Supreme Court also supervises State Administration.
- Judges are not accountable for their decisions.
- Any Member of Parliament or government may file a motion to start a trial or control process.
- Supreme Court also tries for crimes against the Republic or treason. No other trials may be held in this Court.
- Criminal offences are tried before the system of courts defined by law. Such law guarantees the right to appeal to a higher instance.
- Judges in those courts are appointed by Consul.
- Minor infractions are in competence of the Police force.
Chapter V - Civil Rights - Civil rights are protected by the criminal Courts and the Supreme Court.
- Basic civil rights cannot be changed or suspended.
- Every citizen may do anything that is not prohibited by state. State may only act in accordance with law.
- Civil rights are granted to every citizen, no matter what his ethnicity or religion is.
- No one may be prosecuted for his opinions. Freedom of speech and press is guaranteed by state
- State guarantees the right to own property; no one may lose his property to state without a legal and legitimate reason.
- Taxes and other duties may be imposed only by the democratically elected organs of the Republic.
- Citizens are free to elect their deputies.
- Citizens have the right to bear arms.
- Citizens are not only allowed, but obliged to fight for democracy in case of danger of tyranny.
- Exceptionally cruel punishments are outlawed. Capital punishment must be carried out in humane ways.
- Slavery and torture are forbidden.
- All men are created equal. No aristocratic titles may be used in Belgium.
- All men have a right for just trial.
- Citizens are free to petition their deputies and State Administration.
- No discrimination for ethnicity or religion is allowed.
- Official languages of Belgium are Dutch and French.
- Civil Rights may be temporarily suspended in case of State of Danger. This does not apply to rights under Art. 63) Other civil rights may be decribed by law.
Also, I would like to express my opinion on several articles:
I vote NO on Van Brabant Structure of Government Article Act for obvious reasons regarding my political orientation.
I Second Vanderhoof Proclamation of Belgian Trade and Vanderhoof Defense of Private Industry Bill. No matter who Mr. Vanderhoof is and despite of mentioning monarchy, those bills deserve our support.
Du Sint-Niklaas Language Article has my full support.
Martin de Graaf, delegate of Bruges
I believe it has already been accepted by your liberal friends, Monsieur de Graaf, that Belgium will be a Kingdom. Your attempts to establish a republic when it is clearly against popular opinion and dangerous to the political climate are nothing but pitiful.
As I admitted.
I respect the popular opinion and only chose to present this as an inspiration, which I believe i made clear. If the people chose monarchy, let them have it.
The time may show who was right.
I respect the popular opinion and only chose to present this as an inspiration, which I believe i made clear. If the people chose monarchy, let them have it.
The time may show who was right.
There are many liberals here who would be happy with a republic, but due to the number of monarchists compromise is necessary. Essentially we are trying to keep the monarch as weak as possible at this point.
Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret
Some of the wisest words a republican has ever uttered. Time will judge us all.
Heer de Graf, while its pointless of you to propose a republic consitution since easily 2/3 of us want a monarchy I thank you for your contribution non the less as those of us who want to make sure both sides are as happy as possible can use your document as a summary of want the liberal republicans want. Infact I may make a 4th draft of my Form of Government document because of this.
- Fabian van de Velde, Count of Ypres
- Fabian van de Velde, Count of Ypres
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It is beyond me why anyone would support the addition of Vanderhoofs proposals to our constitution. We are discussing the foundation stones of our nation, not mere legislation. Mistakes can not easily be rectified.
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The buyin only allows larger banks, companies and merchant houses to have say in the House of Trade. If this legislation is not agreed to, Belgian trade may never truly be free. This House of Trade allows traders to decide the direction of the Belgian economy and forever hold our destinies in our hand.
Monsieur de Graaf,
I am a capitalist with many industrial concerns, but even I cannot support the Defense of Private Industry Bill at this time. We do not know how taxes will be levied under this new government, how can we say we will not pay them, what if farmers end up paying taxes while we do not, yet we benefit from their use. In what world is that fair to the people of Belgium?
The second part of the bill is tougher, at my core I believe that less legislation from government is a good thing. With this in mind I am hesitant to support the second part, because what is stopping a company from abusing private citizens if there is literally NO legislation at all. I would rather see legislation only used by government to protect citizens from physical harm to themselves or their property.
The final part of the bill is the one I most agree with, and as such I incorporated it when I wrote the Belgian Bill of Rights.
I would ask that you consider these points.
Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret
I understand the desire to lay out economic policy, but it is not the time nor the place for economic policy. Economic policy should be legislation done in the Parliament or whatever legislative body Belgium has. Setting up economic policy in the constitution takes away the important ability for the government to adapt to different situations.
People the consitution is for important all encompassing things we need when making a nation state. We need some form of article of rights, we need some form of goverment, we need a legislative body, we need an executive, we need a judicary section, we need a military. We dont absolutly need economic policies right now so can we please focus our time on stuff we need.
- Fabian van de Velde, Count of Ypres
((Fabians a bit of a control freak.))
- Fabian van de Velde, Count of Ypres
((Fabians a bit of a control freak.))
You are quite right monsieur Damseaux, the only one of Vanderhoof's acts that could even conceivably be a constitutional article would be the one setting up the House of Traders, and even that is a stretch. With that in mind I have decided I shall not support Vanderhoof's proposals at this convention, though I likely will support at least some as laws to be passed upon the formation of government.
Delegate from Liège, Michel Daret
((By the way I was looking at the Belgian Trading one, how much is 100,000 pounds sterling in today's money?))