Edge of Darkness [new version]

[Hirz]

What kind of time frame can we expect for the new version to be complete now that the major steps are done?

It's hard to say. I currently lack of time and therefore couldn't add that much content. I'm currently busy removing the last existing bugs and then I would like to add some content for Italy as requested here in the forum. At least the ai in Japan is now performing way better than in previous versions.

I would not expect any new version before February. This has following reasons:
1. @JJMerrill has a lot of spare time until then and therefore he will be able to contribute lots of new events
2. I will have finished at this time everything on my todo list and can fully focus on merging our contents.
3. We do need some time for beta testing as we really don't want to release a buggy 2.1 version, which needs hundreds of hotfixes
4. We really want to release something, which is revolutionary

 

[GermanPower]

@JJMerrill is the submarine warfare going to be modeled in any way by events? I've seen people try and do it in the past. Is it something simply to hard to do? In many games I've sunk half of the British merchant fleet with little to no impact on the war or dissent. I'm curious if this is just a hard thing to do.

Secondarily will there be a heavy armor division? I don't ever see mods with this in Darkest hour.

 

[JJMerrill]

@GermanPower I really wish there was a better way to make convoy destruction have effects like this. The closest I could find in eventcommands.txt was the following:



escortpool = X # changed to check for total escorts instead just for unassigned

convoypool = X # changed to check for total convoy transports instead just for unassigned


So, I can write a command that checks for a total convoypool and that can check, for example, the UK's starting convoys, but that's it. I feel that an event that's written something like (IF UK convoys < X value, trigger Y negative effect), but that could lead to all sorts of weird problems and seems really clumsy. It could only check to see if the available convoys were under a certain value, which doesn't even look at the convoys that are actually running and shipping supplies.

 

[Khor]

Hungary should get some events if Poland is Germanized.

- settling fugitive Polish people within their borders
- raising some Polish divisions
- if Warsaw is in uprising, than Hungary should have a 80% chance to support the uprising with weapons, aid, supplies (historical), 15% for making an alliance and declaring war on the Reich (it almost happened. Some units have resisted the German command, and opened fire upon them. The Reich prepared to attack Hungarian units), and 5% chance to decline the support (very unlikely, but it is a possibility)
- Some dissent reduction flavor events could also pop-up like "Opening schools for Polish children" (a couple of schools were opened for them.)
- practically thousands of armed soldiers and officials were evacuated through Hungary. (Multiple times have the Reich requested them to be handed over, but Hungary declined.)
- the Reich should ask for military access from Hungary before the attack on Poland (which they did, but the Hungarian government declined because it would dishonor the centuries old friendship against Poland.)

Some other Hungarian events to be considered (if there will be maybe more)

- technically the Hungarian government did not dishonor the friendship treaty to Yugaslavia. They waited until the Croatian nationalists declared themselves as a free state, and declared the Yugos a dead one. (Than it was a freeforall scenario in their mind.)
- the Medimurje region could be claimed by Croatia also, but Hungary will get it after they have beaten Yugoslavia
- The war against the Soviets started by the bombing of the Hungarian city Kassa. (It is a mystery who actually did it. There could be four events based on the four possibilities. One is the historical version in which they attack the SU. The second one is the attack against Slovakia, in which case the Reich could let it fight out, and ally the remaining one, or back Slovakia and declare war on Hungary. The third option was the Abwehr, in which case Hungary would declare war on the Reich. The fourth and last option is the Hungarian Military Intelligence in which case Hungary would remain neutral, but get +10 dissent.)

 

[JJMerrill]

@Khor Interesting ideas, thank you - the scenario depicted in my earlier screenshot is an alternate history possibility where an even more aggressive Germanization policy is conducted after a successful Operation Barbarossa. The political atmosphere of southern Europe would indeed by a very complex and potentially volatile one in this scenario.

A small flavor event or two for states like Hungary could be nice to add to the overall experience.

 

[Ironweaver]

In case of a rebellious Hungary supporting the Polish uprising against Germanization and Germany defeating it, maybe you could implement an alternate history scenario where Germany takes over Transylvania (and forces Romania to give up Romanian Banat), and uses the area as a land bridge from Galicia to Serbia, which could - along with Syrmia, Bačka and Baranya - be refomed into a Reichskommissariat, Germanized, and eventually incorporated into the Reich proper.

It's an outlandish idea, but the German administration in Serbian Banat wanted the Reich to create a new German state (named Banat or Prinz-Eugen) with a capital in Belgrade (renamed to Prinz-Eugen-Stadt), which would incorporate the Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia, the entire southern Pannonian Basin and parts of Transylvania allowing it a land connection to Galicia, which would eventually be Germanized and annexed to the Reich. The idea was dismissed as too impractical and dangerous, but in a scenario where a more aggressive policy of Germanization was pursued and Hungary - as the main obstacle towards its implementation - taken down, such a move might be more reasonable.

 

[Misantropia]

If we're at the subject of Hungary, maybe there could be some post war events for northern Transylvania:

Romania never accepted the Second Vienna Award and Antonescu hoped to change Hitler's mind on the subject by contributing as much as possible to the war against USSR (though both HUN and ROM kept a lot of units on the Transylvanian border just in case ), Also Hungary was not happy with the accord, claiming the Carpathian border. So a revisiting of the Accords should eventually emerge for a victorious Axis with Romania and Hungary figting it out if GER arbitration does not work out. (Fatherland mod has a workable event chain, however it is somewhat restricting in it's options.)

When the crisis starts both HUN and ROM should leave the Axis

The revisiting of the accords should have 5 options:
Romania ++, Romania gets back all it's lands, 90% HUN will DOW
Romania +, Romania gets Cluj and Bistrita, the highest areas with Romanian population, Miercurea Ciuc becomes a free state of the Szekerly/puppet of HUN (new TAG?) 50% HUN will DOW
Status qwo 25% ROM will DOW, 10% HUN will DOW
Hungary +, Hungary gets Arad and Turda additionally 60% ROM will DOW
Hungary ++, Hungary gets all of Transylvania, Romania only retains Banat area (maybe an independent Saksen Siebenburgen or HUN puppet, just for flavor), 90% ROM will DOW

If GER choses to support either part, the helped party will join the Axis while the other one will make it's choice, accept or fight (when they eventually lose the peace will be imposed). If GER chose the status quo (the AI should go for that allmost all of the cases), both coutries will stay out and fight it out if one so desires

http://imgur.com/a/z20pj

Transnistria was design to be awarded to ROM as a new home for the 40-50% Romanians of the population in Northern Transylvania. Therefore ROM should get the event a similar event the Germans get for the whole of Russia. If ROM does not unite all of Trasylvania in the aforementioned cysis they will get the option to colonize the Transylvanian Romanians in the new lands eventually gaining cores.

 

[JJMerrill]

@Ironweaver @Misantropia I would really like to implement the Banat concept, at a minimum. I took inspiration for this from the Fatherland mod, which has an event dealing with this. You both seem to know quite a lot on the subject and I've added your posts to my notes for a possible "Generalplan Sud" event chain basis. If you know of any good online sources, that would be greatly appreciated.

I am now doing bug-testing and polishing on the Generalplan Ost event chains, and then I will be adding much less complex flavor events to make the experience more fleshed out. I would then like to specifically focus on the United Kingdom and its position after a USSR surrender. After that, I can expand to "Generalpland Nord", and then "Generalplan Sud" as mentioned in your posts.

 

[Ironweaver]

@JJMerrill Unfortunately, I can't say that I do - but it might help if you managed to get a copy of vol. 2 of Norman Rich's "Hitler's War Aims".

 

[Khor]

Transylvanian idea is very good. If there is a free tag, than they could have it. It would work for RK Siebenbürgen. Somewhere on the Fartherland thread I wrote, that a state like that would work. It could have various names based on whose puppet they are, or not. Siebenbürgen if Reich or German puppet. Erdély if Hungary is a puppet master and Ardeal if it is a Romanian puppet. Transylvania could be its name, if it is free. (All of the three powers should annex their puppet later. The only route would be, if Transylvania refuses the annexation event.)
Some other

Ironweaver your Prinz-Eugen-Stadt info is great. Do you have any source? You could drop this to the Fatherland forum too.

 

[Misantropia]

Why would Romania of Hungary want a Transylvanian puppet? both countries see the region as a natural part of the country. Also the naming is a bit weird, Erdely is the hungarian name for the land, while Ardeal is the romanised name from the hungarian one, while Transylvania is the name the romanians actually use for the most part, being latin and whatnot.

The only reasoning puppets may be created is for the isolated ethic communities in Transylvania:
the Szekerly - they are hungarian colonistst composing ~90% of the province of Miercurea Ciuc in game. they are somewhat culturally different than the hungarians (minor linguistic differences) but the main difference is the geographical isolation, being totally surrounded by majority romanian areas (the provinces of Bistrita and Cluj were majority romanian even during the Hungarian occupation in 1940-1945). It would make sense for them to become a separate TAG only if they are not directly connected to Hungary, if GER awards differently during the second Vienna accords or during the post-war revision. They can either be a Romanian puppet (there is currently a discution in romania tu give them large autonomy) of Hungarian

the Transylvanian Saxons - they represent the descendants of the german colonists in Transylvania, they lived, during that time in the province of Sibiu and to a lesser extent Bistrita. Under certain circumstances they could get independence (for example a pro Hungarian revisiting of the Vienna awards). This is not really in line with the german general plans, as the Nazi wanted to use these descendants (because of the fact thay they were a minority pop) to be used as colonists for Russia.

the Banat Swabians- they are german collonists in the province or Timisoara and Petrovgrad. While Petrovgrad is an easy pick for a german speaking state in the area, it will antagonize both the Romanian and the Sebian. Also Petrovograd can be used as a compensation for Romania for the loss of land to the HUN. as for the Saxons, the Nazi wanted to use these descendants (because of the fact thay they were a minority pop) to be used as colonists for Russia. So there should allways be the option to help out the general plan Ost by using them.

So we would have 3 new TAGs:
-Székelyföld - for the Szekerly in Miercurea Ciuc, would appear in case of a favorable Vienna award for the romanians, where the HUN will only get Oradea (majority Hungarian province, and have Székelyföld as an independend land or puppet of either HUN or ROM)
-Siebenburgen - for the Saxons In Sibiu, would appear in case of a pro Hungarian Vienna award, where they would get more land the historically, and also ROM releases Siebenburgen as either an independent state, HUN or ROM puppet
-Banat - for the german Swabians in Timisoara, Petrovograd and, if they chose to be a multinational state and accept romanians, Resita. this should be a german drivven event where they decide the fate of the Swabians, either create the state and piss off the people aound or use them for general plan Ost

 

[Khor]

A puppet nation would be more desirable for either the Reich (so the two others wont fight over it), or the others. Yes they consider it as their integral part, except that without war the only diplomatic solution besides partitioning is the creation of an autonomous state.

The second one is the problem about anyone seeing the Szeklers as the only Hungarian minority there. It is a bit complicated, but not every Transylvanian Hungarian is Szekler (Székely), but every Székely is Transylvanian Hungarian.
I wouldn't even go to really talk about any ethnicity numbers because they were never accurate. Not in the Hungarian times, and not in the Romanian ones. (And in a post axis victory, nobody would really care about ethnicity, just the provinces.)

You must understand, that until a new patch arrives, there is a very limited number of tags in the game. One could be possible to create, but three would be too much in my opinion. (The leaders would be more or less the same, and the government, and flags could be changed by event. So an RK Siebenbürgen and a Transylvania could easily have the same TAG.)
The Banat TAG would also be a bit too much. Giving the province to the RK S. or to the Reich is enough in my opinion. (I'm not even sure this mod has any more free tags.)

An RK could also be created from Hungary with the name RK Ungarn, or RK Donau. (A new TAG is not needed, Hungary could transform itself to that, if released.)

 

[Ironweaver]

@Khor I read about in a magazine in much more detail a long time ago, but this article contains some rudimentary stuff. Another online source I can find is something from a website about boys' historical clothing (lol). Both claim to use Rich's book as a source, which seems fairly legit.

And sure, I can post it in the Fatherland thread too.

 

[Misantropia]

@Khor sure thing, those tags are just flavor, no real gameplay impact (and a lot of work to research and implement), if it affects the rest of the game those 3 countries can easily be annexed by GER, ROM and HUN,

 

[JJMerrill]

I've learned a lot reading the last few posts in this thread - my knowledge of Southern Europe is by far my weakest point. These ideas are way too interesting to ignore, and I would like to tackle the possibility of creating a new TAG for RK Siebenbürgen. I can't guarantee this will make it into the mod, but it's such a good way to provide interesting post-war content that I think I should examine the information you guys have presented. I'll need to study how to implement a new TAG and see what might be available, I know that they are quite limited. I'll also need a flag and recommendations for ministers.

That being said, what would the borders of such a state might look like?

Here's Transylvania according to the DH map:

These are the borders of that region, with Banat (Petrovgrad) included, superimposed over historical Axis borders:

This would give Germany direct land access to this RK territory through Stanislawow in eastern Poland. What do you guys think? Also, check out this map of the Danube and a snippet regarding Nazi aims in the region:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_rule_over_the_Danube_River

Nazi Germany's main concerns in establishing control over the Danubian basin were economic in nature.[14] Adolf Hitler's primary objective throughout the war was to conquer sufficient "living space" (Lebensraum) at the expense of the Soviet Union in Eastern Europe for German settlement, which would in turn allow control over the country's rich deposits of natural resources (such as oil, grain and iron), transforming Germany into an economic autarky.[14] The Danube was considered to be the main route along which this stream of raw materials was to be transported to Germany proper.[14] Hitler referred to the Danube as the "river of the future".[15] At other times he was more explicit about its role in the German-dominated Europe:

"The Danube is the waterway which leads into the very heart of the continent, and for this reason, in a Europe united by us, will have to be regarded as a German river and controlled by Germany."

— Adolf Hitler, 29 June 1942.[16]
In view of these intentions, various proposals to establish permanent German possession of the entire Danubian waterway were formulated by the Nazis. One of these proposed the settlement of all the ethnic Germans in Southeastern Europe along a broad strip of territory on both sides of the river, stretching from Mohács in southern Hungary all the way to the Black Sea.[14] Another suggested turning Belgrade into a fortress-city of the Reich (Reichsfestung) and the center of a Reichsgau (administrative subdivision), to be named Prinz-Eugen. Neither of these ideas was officially endorsed by the wartime German government, however, and the historical record indicates that the Nazis had no clear conception as to what extent Germany should control the Danube or how this control was to be effected.[14] Hitler's own preference, at least for the immediate future, was the retention of a number of satellite states (Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and others) closely tied to the Nazi regime politically and economically. Serbia at the very least was most likely to remain under some permanent form of German administration.[14]

 

[Khor]

For a flag this could work: http://expelledgermans.org/banat.jpg (The flag of the expelled Germans from the regions of Transylvania, and Banat. (But you should change the background tricolor to this: http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net..._Empire.svg/revision/latest?cb=20141230000503
Some info about it: http://expelledgermans.org/transylvaniasaxons.htm

 

[Khor]

I thought about the flag of the RK and if Hitler is still in charge, than they could have a version of the Teutonic Order flag (because of the influence of Himmler).
The first Germans in that territory were the Teutonic Order members who left the Holy Lands in 1210. In 1211 the Hungarian king Andrew II. (András or Endre) give them some land in Transylvania. (Technically the descendants of the Order are still there, and they are older in heritage, than Prussia.)
So I think they would use the Order flag, for the Rk, but with a Siebenbürgen emblem version.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Order#Transylvania.2C_Kingdom_of_Hungary

 

[Misantropia]

Siebenburgen is the german name for Transylvania, it however, did not include Banat historically. Thus my proposal for 2 separate state. Also the Hungarians in Transylvania would feel disenfranchised, thus the proposal of the creation of the small land of the Szekerly. (I understand TAGs are limited, it was just a best case scenario)


The name itself means "seven towns", and refers to a particular geographical areas colonised by the Saxon germans, in the game being, at it's largest extent the provinces of Bistrita Sibiu and Alba Iulia, it could be extended for conveniance to whole of inner-Carpathian lands ( adding Turda, Cluj and Miercurea-Ciuc) but the outer regions (Arad and Oradea) would make less sense, being populated entirely by Romanians and Hungarians. Thus the name is very localised and foreign to other Germans nearby in the case of a German state in the lower Danubian area, it's like calling whole of Romania, Oltenia, or whole of Germany, Baden.

So, if you want to create a german state in the Danubian area, I would rather go for Prinz-Eugenstaat or something along those lines that would encompass the Banat Swabians, the Transylvanian Saxons, and the Germans in Hungary and northern Yugoslavia.


Also this whole scenario is a little bit too crazy in my books, it would basically mean to antagonize Hungarians, Romanians, Serbs and Croats and bad things happen when Balkan people decide to stop hating each other and hate another people at the same time .
The scope of the mod is presuming that things happen historically until Barbarossa so the only real way for this to happen is if the balkans turn against the GER during a SOV advance, and the Germans eventually win and punish them.

Thus my proposal for a more limited setup where the Germans get small localised states that are autonimous in the Balkan paradigm, Croatia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and the defeated Serbia and Greece

 

[Khor]

In a German RK the Hungarians and Romanians would be considered secondary citizens at best, if they are lucky. They would not be regarded by the Reich as valuable people. (This is the reasons, that the flag only shows the saxons.)
While you are completely right, I don't see a reason for caring in axis victory turns about the ethnicity. (For example the Baltic citizens were also considered lesser people. They were not shown in the flag, and the territory is larger than what the Order had in former days.)
As I wrote ethnicity and the people living there is secondary at best in Reich minds. If they had a colonizing plan for the living space of 20+ million people, than 1-2 million living in Transylvania would not be that big of a problem.

Also if Hungary is annexed by the Reich, than I propose a dismemberment. Győr, Székesfehérvár, Zalaegerszeg, Pécs, Budapest would be made a vassal RK (the Hungarian tag is fine for that.)
Komárom, Kassa, Miskolc, Ungvár, Huszt would go to Slovakia, Újvidék to Croatia and the rest to Romania.

There were plans for an RK in the entire Transylvanian are, which would really come in handy for the Reich.
If we read what JJMerrill wrote than we could implement also the Banat idea, but from a different angle. If the Reich chooses to permanently have an administrative state in the Serbian region, than we could make an RK above Serbia (in which case we don't need any free tags, the Serbian one is enough.

So with events we could have all three ideas without messing with too much things in the mod. Only one tag is needed for Siebenbürgen, the others can be reused.

 

[Timur Khan]

Siebenburgen is the german name for Transylvania, it however, did not include Banat historically. Thus my proposal for 2 separate state. Also the Hungarians in Transylvania would feel disenfranchised, thus the proposal of the creation of the small land of the Szekerly. (I understand TAGs are limited, it was just a best case scenario)


The name itself means "seven towns", and refers to a particular geographical areas colonised by the Saxon germans, in the game being, at it's largest extent the provinces of Bistrita Sibiu and Alba Iulia, it could be extended for conveniance to whole of inner-Carpathian lands ( adding Turda, Cluj and Miercurea-Ciuc) but the outer regions (Arad and Oradea) would make less sense, being populated entirely by Romanians and Hungarians. Thus the name is very localised and foreign to other Germans nearby in the case of a German state in the lower Danubian area, it's like calling whole of Romania, Oltenia, or whole of Germany, Baden.

So, if you want to create a german state in the Danubian area, I would rather go for Prinz-Eugenstaat or something along those lines that would encompass the Banat Swabians, the Transylvanian Saxons, and the Germans in Hungary and northern Yugoslavia.


Also this whole scenario is a little bit too crazy in my books, it would basically mean to antagonize Hungarians, Romanians, Serbs and Croats and bad things happen when Balkan people decide to stop hating each other and hate another people at the same time .
The scope of the mod is presuming that things happen historically until Barbarossa so the only real way for this to happen is if the balkans turn against the GER during a SOV advance, and the Germans eventually win and punish them.

Thus my proposal for a more limited setup where the Germans get small localised states that are autonimous in the Balkan paradigm, Croatia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and the defeated Serbia and Greece

Yeah I can confirm that. In old Bulgarian sources (apr. X century) the mentioned area is called "Sedmigradsko" (Седмиградско - Seven towns area). But in my opinion, like @Misantropia said, this scenario is not a good idea for EOD. I'm really interested in what I read here, in fact I didn't know it before but for the game it will be better without it. Anyway after the destruction of Yugoslavia and the occupation of Greece, Germany already controls the Balkans. I will search for more information about that area anyway, you engaged my curiosity.