Edge of Darkness [new version]

[Hirz]

What's your opinion on not being able to transport non para-shooter units by transport plains? I mean, it's ridiculous, isn't it? Of course you can transport them on your province, and the Organization level drops and you have to wait to be full so that you can use them for assault.

We could change combat modifiers for all other units so that attacking by airborn mission is forlorn hope! Only problem is that these units could also land on non airport provinces, but I think that´s no big deal as the ME 323 Giant was able to land on fields too!

I´m looking forward to hearing your opinions!

 

[Angelos]

Keep in mind though, that while theoretically all infantry units could be transported by air, almost none actually did. Aside from the transport of Franco's African troops to mainland Spain in 1936, there never was any such massive troop transport aside from paratroopers. Dropping the combat modifiers won't really solve the problem that an infantry division just landing by plane would either be massacred on arrival or dissolve for lack of ammo and logistical support soon after. No one ever tried something like that and even paratroopers usually suffered greatly like in Crete or in Op. Market Garden. Me 323 could probably land in fields, but it never actually did in combat situations. In the few cases that an advanced infantry force tried to survive based on air transport, results were rather disastrous like in Stalingrad after the encirclement or even Dien Bien Phu in the 1950s. So, my opinion is that normal infantry should only be able to just move around in already occupied territories by air and leave aerial assault to the paratroopers.

 

[Gukpa]

I think we will give -15IC for each wave of 1936 militia do you agree?

15?No no,this will collapse German industry too fast,give less 5

 

[unmerged(76243)]

Keep in mind though, that while theoretically all infantry units could be transported by air, almost none actually did. Aside from the transport of Franco's African troops to mainland Spain in 1936, there never was any such massive troop transport aside from paratroopers. Dropping the combat modifiers won't really solve the problem that an infantry division just landing by plane would either be massacred on arrival or dissolve for lack of ammo and logistical support soon after. No one ever tried something like that and even paratroopers usually suffered greatly like in Crete or in Op. Market Garden. Me 323 could probably land in fields, but it never actually did in combat situations. In the few cases that an advanced infantry force tried to survive based on air transport, results were rather disastrous like in Stalingrad after the encirclement or even Dien Bien Phu in the 1950s. So, my opinion is that normal infantry should only be able to just move around in already occupied territories by air and leave aerial assault to the paratroopers.

Not quite true. Ringel's mountain division was used to fly into Crete after the para drops. Of course the DAK was flown into Tunis, as were reinforcements in 43. Planes were also used to transport Axis troops off Sicily after the Allied invasion. I'd say only only Paras to be dropped, but allow other troops to be transported between airports.

 

[JRHINDO]

Since you guys are talking about airlifting, ill repost things said in another thread (including me and other responses which did make interesting points) for debate basing sakes:

Not precisely against you, but just to make a point to naysayers against airlift in general. Airlift of troops happened, it happens, it will always. It was on divisional level, with troops, arms and vehicles, including whole tanks units.

what do you mean with "whole tank units"?

"In April 1923 aircraft of the RAF's Iraq Command flew 280 Sikh troops from Kingarban to Kirkuk in the first British air trooping operation. This operation was only conducted over a short range and it was not until 1929 that the RAF conducted a long-range non-combat air evacuation of British diplomatic staff from Afghanistan to India using a Vickers Victoria during the Kabul Airlift..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airlift#History

yeah, these are few people.

"In July 1936, General Francisco Franco took command of the Spanish Army of Africa and rebelled against the Spanish republican government; his military uprising led to the Spanish Civil War. The troops were transported to mainland Spain in an airlift using transport aircraft supplied by Germany and Italy." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceuta
"By the 1920s the Army of Africa was composed of Spanish troops as well as the Spanish Foreign Legion (created in 1921) and locally recruited Moroccan infantry and cavalry units called Regulares (created in 1911). In total, the Army of Africa numbered 30,000 soldiers" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Army_of_Africa

well, over a few weeks time frame

"On 10 November, the Italian Air Force sent a flight of 28 fighters to Tunis. Two days later an airlift began that would bring in over 15,000 men and 581 short tons (527 t) of supplies, backed up with transport ships that added 176 tanks, 131 artillery pieces, 1,152 vehicles, and 13,000 short tons (12,000 t) of supplies. By the end of the month they had shipped in three German divisions, including the 10th Panzer Division, and two Italian infantry divisions." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Kasserine_Pass

"In addition 390 British infantrymen could be flown from India into RAF Shaibah. It was also stated that when shipping became available this force could quickly be built up to a division in strength."
"On 17 April, the 1st Battalion King's Own Royal Regiment (1st KORR) was flown into RAF Shaibah from Karachi in India.By 18 April, the airlift of the 1st KORR to Shaibah was completed."
"On 18 April, the 20th Indian Infantry Brigade landed at Basra. The 20th Indian Infantry Brigade included the 2nd battalion 8th Gurkha Rifles, 2nd battalion 7th Gurkha Rifles, and the 3rd battalion 11th Sikh Regiment. The landing of the force transported by Convoy BP7 was covered by infantry of the 1st KORR which had arrived the previous day by air. The landing was unopposed.^" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Iraqi_War

well as i said, i like this idea, only your quotes do not back it up much. you missed Weserübung (capture of Oslo), though.

with transport ships

View attachment 85902 View attachment 85901
Both taken in Tunisia. Transport ships were secondary:
"By September 1942, Me 323s were being delivered for use in the Tunisian campaign, and entered service in the Mediterranean theater in November 1942. The high rate of loss among Axis shipping had made necessary a huge airlift of equipment across the Mediterranean to keep Rommel's Afrika Korps supplied." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ME_323

yeah, these are few people.

And we cant directly interact in game with units smaller than divisions. So thats not the issue. It was only to point out that tactical airlifting had been done before ww2, and anyway if the problem had been of larger scale they'd have done it with battalions and brigades like in Irak in 1941.

well, over a few weeks time frame

Sure but HoI can put 10 divisions in 10 AP units in a single day, ship them under week to port 500 km away, and have everybody ready to move again in the hour...

Shipping

https://www.aacargo.com/
Look for all the times the word shipping is used and try to find boats.

I agree with JRHINDO once again, the strategic airlift of whole divisions started in the spanish civil war and then it continued it's development during ww2 and cold war. Maybe it could be linked with technologies, so the first airlift tech would only allow you to airlift infantry, militia and garrisons but the later techs would allow you to lift armoured divisions.

I don't think a transportation of whole tank-divisions is realistic, i could see a infantry division with mot/arm brigade transportable but not more.

Yes its true that this would be not quite realistic, but keep in mind that air dropping whole WHOLE paratroop divisions is also pretty ridiculous and has never been seen since ww2, nor does whole divisions get shipped around in bundle without ever being broken apart. So in terms of realism and flexibility, some things are still left to be desired anyway.

And well I suppose, things can be made moddable if airlifting is ever implemented in DH.

The issue here is that DH is a Strategic Level game not a Tactical level one. Plus I don't see anywhere in your post where you show that any heavy arms (i.e, tanks, heavy Art, etc.) was transported by air. Even in modern times there really isn't any country with the capability to Air Transport the hardware for an Armored Division. Most cases of troops being deployed overseas using air transport requires them to meet up with pre-positioned armor. For example the "Reforger" exercises conducted by the US during the cold ware

The issue here is that DH is a Strategic Level game not a Tactical level one.

Of naval infantry, paratroopers, mountain infantry and HQs, only the first 2 were ever full units on a strategic level (divisions) in history; for paras it was only for ww2, and for nav inf only US marines were/are now divisions. Most of these unit types operate on brigade or regiment levels, due to their extend focus on a single segment of a theater of operation. btw Brigades are not on a strategic level right? So why are brigades represented in game?...

DH is not about strategic or tactical simulation, it is not a simulation, period. It tries hard to be, and is a fun try at simulation, but its not, and whatever level it is doesnt matter and I dont care. Also DH can be about anything, I am asking this not only for the ww2 times, but also for coldwar, future and other fantasy eras made in mods.

Even in modern times there really isn't any country with the capability to Air Transport the hardware for an Armored Division. Most cases of troops being deployed overseas using air transport requires them to meet up with pre-positioned armor.

In modern times, armies dont operation in full divisional capacities. The 1st US infantry dont ALL go to Afghanistan (fake example), only a brigade, regiment or battalion gets sent depending on the needs. But do note, that the US 1st Armored Division went in Irak and Afghanistan. Not the whole full division sure, but it had Abrams in Irak and Afghanistan. And I guess the tanks must have been pre positioned in the warzones... Dont under estimate the power of trillions of dollars of military budgets.

View attachment 91886

Plus I don't see anywhere in your post where you show that any heavy arms (i.e, tanks, heavy Art, etc.) was transported by air.

View attachment 85902
Marder II (SPAT) unloading out of a Me323. This used a PzII chassis so you can deduct that a PzII or 2x PzI can load up too. (I had posted about this one already)

View attachment 91887
German Sd.Kfz. 251 halftrack coming out of a Me323. It could actually load up 3 trucks.

View attachment 91889
This monster (the Me321 Gigant) glider, could carry a max of 45 tons of load. It could carry a PzIV, crew and supplies included, or anything worth of 45 tons.

View attachment 91882
British 6 pounder AT gun loading on a Horsa glider.

View attachment 91890
US Waco CG-4s could carry jeeps. Or a M116 75mm howitzer.

View attachment 91892
The Go-244 could also carry a jeep or a light gun.

View attachment 91895
A British G.A. Hamilcar could carry a Tetrarch light tank, or 2 bren-gun universal carriers, a bofors gun, or 2 scout cars.

View attachment 91896
The Hamilcar was also used for the M22 Locust tank.

View attachment 91897
That last tank could also be under carried in 2 pieces on a C54 skymaster transport plane.

View attachment 91899
Crazy Russia ftw

Theres probably, surely, obviously, more examples out there.

 

[Angelos]

Not quite true. Ringel's mountain division was used to fly into Crete after the para drops. Of course the DAK was flown into Tunis, as were reinforcements in 43. Planes were also used to transport Axis troops off Sicily after the Allied invasion. I'd say only only Paras to be dropped, but allow other troops to be transported between airports.

Actually, being from Crete myself ( ) i can tell you that Ringel's mountain troops did land in Maleme airfield, but only after it had been secured by the paratroopers, they did not actually assault it. And in a totally weird but absolutely true coincidence, my paternal grandfather fought in the Battle of Crete and was captured by Ringel's unit during a skirmish in a mountain pass days into the Battle. Thankfully, in that case they did not shoot the captured soldiers and let them walk back to their villages after our defeat. Otherwise this discussion would not be taking place

 

[NikephorosSonar]

I don't play this mod so feel free to throw out my suggestion, but the problem with making more units moveable by air is that the AI doesn't even use paratroops. Given how quirky it is I could see them actually using airmobile infantry but just flying units around at random. So I would suggest testing it extensively before integrating it.

 

[Hirz]

You definately should play this mod ;-)

Yes I think operation sea lion could be a testing field for ai so yes: testing it extensively would be very important

 

[Beagá]

Hi there Hirz tried installing the mod... but it fails in the 1933 start due to not having a 1933 AI file for Guangxi. Cgx_1933 or something.

 

[Xie]

Ministers and leaders for Gran Columbia and Central America if you want them:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...isters-and-Leaders-for-U77-and-U78&highlight=

 

[Ericafaq]

С-a and Columbia not in our prioprity.But,we welcome ministers for Argentina and Brazil

 

[caksz]

Hi there Hirz tried installing the mod... but it fails in the 1933 start due to not having a 1933 AI file for Guangxi. Cgx_1933 or something.

Try Tab to window & click ignore the error. The very reason i don't play the latest version , had to tab it out & most of the time by tabbing to window it's mess up my graphic & animation of the game , hope it's got fixed in the later version.

 

[Hirz]

really okay I´m sorry when you suffered from graphic problems ...That´s already a solved problem ;-)

and won´t be in next version any more ...If you want I could upload a small hotfix ;-)

 

[jackbgibson]

I have had some CTDs when moving the mouse and the mouse wheel. If you could post the hotfix, I will try it. Thanks. (This is my favorite mod!)

 

[JRHINDO]

Hirz I recommend to leave only 1 option for 'sensible subjects' like Katyn massacres and such events, so you are free from any plausible moderator retaliation. In essence force the events on the player, as simulation of war crimes is not allowed and historical events are not denied anyhow.

 

[Hirz]

Maybe a good idea as I´ve already received a warning for swastikas in my mod ;-)

Sure I´ll upload the hotfix as soon as I´m back home!

 

[Hirz]

ok here´s the hotfix just unzip it and replace your current ai folder in EoD mod with this one ;-)

hope that helps! Please give me a feedback!

http://www67.zippyshare.com/v/47673335/file.html

 

[Gukpa]

Oh,Hirz,the volkssturm must be a 1942 militia,because volkssturm was really bad trained and fast raised,but have a pretty good equipament,even panzerfausts and STGs 44 in some circunstances

 

[Ericafaq]

Gukpa,we will add hitlerjugend and volks as another unit,not militia with another division name

 

[Hirz]

Well we only have 1939 and 1945 and to be honest I´m not really keen on creating a new separate 1942 model for Germany...


But maybe I´ll do that when creating those Volkssturm events... Shouldn´t take that much time...

Which of these guys would you take for the graphics?
http://milday.ru/uploads/posts/2011-06/1307588860_076.jpg