Ecumenopolis too good?

[PAnZuRiEL]

So the last couple of days I've played a game up to the point of the crisis, and clearly my galaxy is doomed, but this thread isn't really about AI empires' woeful unpreparedness. Or is it?

I have a feeling that the new Megacorp-DLC-locked super-cool-thing, the ecumenopolis, is a little bit too good. They're available early in the game because they don't require much tech to unlock compared to megastructures, and the economic benefits are enormous. Alloy and consumer good production on regular planets is heavily limited by building slots and rare resources, but as soon as you have one ecumenopolis you can basically offload your entire specialist class into it and call it a day. Ringworlds in comparison will sustain an unspeakably enormous population of workers collecting food and energy you probably don't need by the time you can build a ringworld, and are exactly as limited in advanced resource production as any regular planet, so I can't really think of anything that justifies the time or expense of building one.

Now I'm sure lots of people have noticed that the AI is no longer capable of sustaining any kind of reasonably-sized fleet, perhaps due to insufficient alloys. Maybe with an ecumenopolis they wouldn't perform as poorly? I haven't tried playing without an ecumenopolis myself, and it seems likely to be much harder. But considering how recklessly the AI expands (hurting their tradition costs) and how poorly they seem to choose what ascension perks they actually manage to unlock -- and considering even further that they require 20,000 of a resource when the default cap (increased only by silos) is 10,000 -- is an AI empire ever going to manage to actually construct one?

What are your thoughts?

 

[CyberianK]

Yes its too good.

The math is clear just the per district advantages and mainly the sheer number of jobs it has are out of any proportion to everything else.

Build lots of them inb4 nerf incoming next patch

 

[Leylos]

Even if they were to limit them to one per empire, it would still be a strict must have.

Ring Worlds are way worse in comparison.

 

[MK1980]

yeah the alloy and consumer goods jobs seem pretty valuable. you have to spend a lot of extra minerals and building slots on crystals/motes if you want to get a similarly centralized forge or industrial (consumer goods) world going without making it an ecumenopolis.

don't know if the difference is that huge. it does cost a significant upfront investment to convert the planet after all. but it certainly is a great tool to have.

haven't built habs or rings in my first game yet. can't say how they work now and if they are still worth getting. but i luckily spawned in the corner of the galacy that gets the first league, so i got a free ecumonopolis without even having to spend the perk point

 

[Foromar]

And that is why the first league beats any other precursors at the moment. 1 free size 25 ecumenopolis is just stupidly good to have that early.

 

[Scorpio_Shirica]

I really hope they buff other stuff, not nerf city worlds. They are so fun at the moment and I'd rather not decrease the fun of one thing to improve other things.

 

[pryr]

Too good? I don't thinks so. Only first league ecumenopolises is too good. Usually they come in midgame, take a lot of investments (minerals and time not only for project itself, but also for city districts. Building 20-25 city districts for a good ecumenopolis is a huge time/mineral investment already) and mostly paying out in providing jobs without requiring rare resources.
They are good in what they supposed to do - producing advanced materials. And that isn't overpowered considering the cost.

Living without ecumenopolis is possible. Good forge world can provide all alloys you need (or a good industrial world for goods, thought they less a problem), you just need to dedicate more building slots for rare resources.

And if you ask me habitats/ringworlds need a buff. Habitats can use better districts (or at least not take away building that are much more useful than habitat districts), and ringwords can become a lot more useful if some kind of matter replicator district will be added.

As for AI, not building ecumenopolis is not a reason why AI is bad. AI is incompetent in general. Switch to observer mod, check AI planets and you will see how bad they are.

 

[Nin6]

Their only 'too good' if you get Fen Habitas precursors. Otherwise their fine. The only benefit is increased population on a single planet, and less mineral upkeep because of volatile motes. Still, you can produce plenty of alloys without one.

Their certainly a very good choice for a tall / Mega co-op faction as rare resourses will be harder to create with less planets.

 

[Nin6]

Too good? I don't thinks so. Only first league ecumenopolises is too good. Usually they come in midgame, take a lot of investments (minerals and time not only for project itself, but also for city districts. Building 20-25 city districts for a good ecumenopolis is a huge time/mineral investment already) and mostly paying out in providing jobs without requiring rare resources.
They are good in what they supposed to do - producing advanced materials. And that isn't overpowered considering the cost.

Living without ecumenopolis is possible. Good forge world can provide all alloys you need (or a good industrial world for goods, thought they less a problem), you just need to dedicate more building slots for rare resources.

And if you ask me habitats/ringworlds need a buff. Habitats can use better districts (or at least not take away building that are much more useful than habitat districts), and ringwords can become a lot more useful if some kind of matter replicator district will be added.

As for AI, not building ecumenopolis is not a reason why AI is bad. AI is incompetent in general. Switch to observer mod, check AI planets and you will see how bad they are.

Habitats can produce more science than a Science nexus hub, with 20 pops on it. 3 habitats and 60 pops produce more than a complete science nexus. And for much less alloy and ambition investment. More influence tho.

 

[roman566]

The main reason Ecumenopolis is so good is that the alternative is so bad. Upgrading factories require rare resources which, as the name suggests, are rare. You need one mine to fully upgrade one factory. Or pay additional upkeep in form of 10 minerals to produce those rare resources yourself. An empire that has dozens of fully developed planets might be able and willing to pay that upkeep, or just pay one time cost of 25- 33k minerals and couple lost districts to get much better and cheaper production facilities in form of Ecumenopolis.

 

[ArmChairAttila]

You need a lot of rural planets to feed a city world. You will also need 1 or 2 tech world's also unless you make the city world into tech. I usually don't make a city world into tech, I like it as a clerk/alloy/CG world. As others have said getting a city world through precursor line is way to OP and should be removed from MP games at least. The upfront and maintenance cost for city world's acquired through perks is fine.

 

[Less2]

Their only 'too good' if you get Fen Habitas precursors. Otherwise their fine. The only benefit is increased population on a single planet, and less mineral upkeep because of volatile motes. Still, you can produce plenty of alloys without one.

There's also a flat 20% production bonus. Plus its way easier to optimize other factors like a great leader and the right traits, ontop of less deadweight from repeated buildings that would be copied across multiple planets, so effectively around another 10-15% production bonus.

Keep in mind that production bonuses affect the whole chain, so ontop of needing no minerals for motes a 30% production bonus means a multiplicatively less amount of minerals for the same alloys.

Habitats can produce more science than a Science nexus hub, with 20 pops on it. 3 habitats and 60 pops produce more than a complete science nexus. And for much less alloy and ambition investment. More influence tho.

Science nexus is more for the global modifier. If/when you get Ecumenopolis you already have more than enough room for science buildings since all those alloy and CG buildings on your planets can be scrapped and replaced with labs.

 

[OnyxAbussos]

I'm ok with it being too good.

Realistically, it WOULD be a must have.

Think nations on earth.
If your nation doesn't have a New York City, or a Beijing, or a London, a Mumbai, a Moscow... you're not gonna be "competitive."

Mega Cities are where all the econonic power is.

 

[Nin6]

They are good yes, but considering you have to remove all districts and pay 20,000 minerals to do it, it can be very difficult to get. For example you have a exterminator, swarm right next to you, you'll never have enough minerals to make it if he knows what he's doing. All of it will go into alloys prior to making the ecumenopolis. But sure, if your left alone in a corner against vanilla stellaris AI's then no problem.

Other worlds are very good as well, heres a machine world thats being fed by many other worlds producing raw resources.

 

[Bob_Herzog]

Playing as Barbaric Live Seeded Despoilers only to then find a Event Gaia World (Out of Phase) and then have First league as Precusors felt like cheating. Two rual Gaia worlds full of slaves (later helped by more and more tribitunaries) feeding the Megaforge.

Slave Market is fun though makes the Raids way more worthwhile than accoblisment of the Wargoal.

 

[Delthor]

They are totally overpowered. They have the most consumer goods, alloys, and trade by far. They have the best district to job ratio and they don't require strategic resources.

Habitats are decent and ringworlds are strong at a very narrow thing that isn't very relevant late game. Gaia hardly matters. Machine and hive worlds are close to the power of an ecumenopolis, but everything else is miles behind. Especially ringworlds, which are weaker despite being more expensive and gated behind even later game stuff.

 

[yerm]

Cybrex could spawn with a non-ruined ringworld and I would still prefer to get league in most games...

 

[Namfuak]

I'm not sure comparing an Ecumenopolis to a Ringworld 1:1 is really fair, since while Ecumenopoli are the only thing you get for their ascension perk, Ringworlds come as part of an ascention perk that gives you access to a bunch of special buildings, all of which can be worth building. Ringworlds are certainly in a weak spot right now, but I don't think we should expect that they should ever be "equivalent" to an ecumenopolis - Ringworlds should get some buff to support them being large gaia worlds (more building slots is the obvious one, but a special third district type to maybe give them a mix of specialist jobs might work), but Ecumenopoli should still fill the specific "specialist production" role better.

 

[Losttruppen]

Wasn't there another identical thread on this a few days ago?

As stated above, Fen Habbanis is absolutely OP for how early you can get it and cheese your start to guarantee you get in the right part of the map.

The main issue with them is the competition they face is a joke and similar tier ascension perk picks don't provide the things you need at the time of game they come into play. Why spend all the minerals, influence, research, and time on a Ringworld that can only provide trade/energy you could get with no downsides from a stage one Dyson Sphere/trade habitats or food that will just feed more Ecumenopoli? Strategic resources are far too limited to be competitive with 280 alloy/CG jobs at the huge +% you can get Ecumenopoli to. T2 buildings should probably not cost strategic resources or give more jobs per upgrade. Ecumenopoli are just really good at what they do in a game state that not much else does very well in for the investment.

Would rather see things brought to a similar level than drop to the bland state of most other options. I would be okay with a few more ways to slow down their growth though, as beyond the initial investment they start the snowball rolling very quickly with not many downsides if you prepare for the food/mineral upkeep.

 

[ShaTiK]

The biggest issues with Ecu is that they are:
- DLC-content, which is always not the greatest thing to have for something this good. You could play without them 100%, but having them is great. That being said, having cosmetics-only DLC is not the way PDX is doing things (and we are not discussing this here anyways). So, I get why people could get a bit salty about it, but that's just how things are. I'm salty myself, cause of the retinue-DLC for CK2 - they are too good to pass on. But still, game could be played without them:
- As stated before, they are a lot better then their 'alternative'. It's somewhat balanced by the fact that ascension perk for Ecu is Ecu-only, while megasturctre have quite a few different toys in it. But even then Ecu bonuses are better. Solution would be, again, as stated above, to buff habitats and ring-worlds:
- Ecu districts are so powerful, mostly because there are no upgraded buildings for rare resource synthesis. Which there should be, imo. Simply having t2 synthesis buildings, with double the workplaces, would be great. That would make dedicating a planet to producing rare resources much more viable. And, as a result, would make forge and artisan-worlds much easier to maintain compared to Ecu. Still, even with this, you would be paying a lot of minerals to convert into rare resources - so given the investment in pops and space maybe the better idea would be just to buy from the market, even at high costs
So, are they too op? Kinda, but only because they are so much better then the 'other stuff'. So, let's hope PDX would buff this 'other' stuff rather then nerfing Ecu into oblivion.