THE FRENCH CONNECTION
INTERVIEW WITH ROLAND BARTHES
CBC 2, 1965
In the Commonwealth, as to much of the French public, the writer Roland Barthes is hardly known. Unlike the celebrated polemicist-philosophers of the Left, led by the duelling figures of Sartre and Camus, Barthes is an apolitical figure, who admires the Left from a studied distance. His work is almost uniquely on the language of mythology, and on the ‘science’, as he calls it, of signs and symbols. In the shadow of his titanic compatriots, Barthes – quieter, less readily accessible – has nevertheless created for himself a niche as one of the most compelling analysts of the Fourth Republic. I met with him to discuss Algeria, the Front de Gauche and the completion of the Eurotunnel.
I started by asking M. Barthes if he might give a brief opinion on the state of the Fourth Republic?
It is hard to make sweeping assessments of politics without tending towards grandeur, not to say grandiloquence. What seems likely is that the Republic is experiencing a period of transition. The passing of the former government of the Front Ouvrière in favour of M. Saillant’s Front de Gauche has granted a reprieve to the project of the Fourth Republic[1], which seemed certain to let itself burn upon the altar of the Jacobin principle. Our government is now less wedded to certain ideas of ‘common sense’ that persisted in spite of the Revolution, but the cost has been the expected one: we must now confront the deeply embedded reactionary tendency that survives within some groups of the French population.
Would you elaborate on this?
Suffice to say that any revolution, even one conducted by forces opposed to capitalism, cannot fully account for a complete overthrow of the old culture. Particularly not when the mythology of the Revolution is so integral to the radical French tradition. Thus we are able to reshape relations in our economy without examining other para-economic factor that support this relationship. Our culture remains heavily informed by the ideas of our grandparents’ time, which is to say there is a surviving culture of the petit-bourgeoisie. Even liberated from the yoke of profit, l’homme syndicaliste refuses to give up on a certain perception of himself: he is strong, worldly, dextrous; he satisfies himself with little beyond what is reasonable; he has attained a certain level of civilisation above and beyond men in other countries; he is most assured of himself when his fate is tied to the fate of the Republic. Belief in this type as ‘natural’ precludes any interrogation of what it means to live in France, against capitalism and imperialism and all sorts of other things.
But you have seen this too in Britain, so perhaps I do not need to explain so much.
In your opinion, then, has European syndicalism undergone something of a crisis in the past ten years or so?
Maybe it should not fall to me to make this assessment. I am not well enough informed.
But in broad terms as a man of the Left, you are not satisfied with the direction the Revolution has taken?
I was a very young man when the Revolution occurred, and I had only lately been introduced to modern literature thanks to the likes of Sartre. And so, in my youth, I did become quite attached to the language of the militant Left.
But I was never a militant myself, and I soon became suspicious of the language of Libération. It was far too sure of itself. I admire Sartre greatly, and I regard him as being one of our great writers, but I do not subscribe to the self-confidence of his position. I believe that elements of the Left have fallen into the bourgeois trap of holding themselves to be self-evident, which is to say what we mean when we describe things as ‘natural’. Naturalisation is a dangerous occupation, for it is the silencer of difference. My advice to the Left would be to accept that it is not natural. Not by any means.
Roland Barthes, writer and critic.
Do you see any signs of progress on this front following the defeat of the Front Ouvrière in the elections of 1963?
In the sense that this has allowed us as a collective to overcome our attachment to certain outdated ideas, yes. The argument unitaire is losing ground, which I am hopeful will allow for a more imaginative re-conception of the purpose of the Fourth Republic.
By this you refer to the troubles surrounding the withdrawal from Algeria?
Yes, and other things. The war in Algeria was merely the key that unlocked a bigger argument that needed to be had, about the foundation of the French state, about the reactionary Jacobin tradition that remains wedded to the heart of French radicalism.
What does this Jacobin tradition mean to you?
It means a perpetuation of centralised control; of the natural righteousness of the French radical tradition; of certain Enlightenment-era ideas about knowledge and virtue that refuse to die. It is the dominant means by which the French Left justifies its historical ascendancy.
Which might be taken as a roundabout way of describing the situation in Algeria?
Quite so. The French justification for remaining in Algeria, and indeed in all of its expropriated territories, is indistinguishable from the 19th century justification for going to Africa at all. The Revolution has become a new mission civilisatrice. Holding our own Left tradition to be founded upon incontrovertible doctrines of progressive science, it is as inconceivable to us that the Africans may reject our overtures as it was to the Catholic missionary that he would not be welcomed by the natives. This is why we refer to the events in Algeria as a ‘crisis’ and not a ‘war’, which would be more correct. We admit our lack of virtue once we start assigning things their true names.
The failure to uphold the Republican position in Algeria was a symbolic defeat for the whole project of the the Fourth Republic, which was founded upon an outdated conception of universality. We have been made to understand, at the point of a guerilla’s bayonet, that francité is not applicable equally in all contexts. Thus the central pillar of the French revolutionary tradition has fallen into jeopardy, and the Republic has experienced a death of the ego.
This is all rather pessimistic. Do you envisage a future for an internationalism that does not fall foul of these sorts of reactionary ideas?
Yes, it is quite simple: Europe must abandon her propensity for control, and she must accept that her mythologies – however benevolent she may believe them to be – are not universal.
What do you make of the United States’ critique of what it calls ‘Syndicalist imperialism’?
It would be valid, if it were not hypocritical.
Do you have anything to say about the influx of American culture onto the European mainland?
I am alarmed by it, but not surprised. Even after the affair in the Baltic during the winter, the United States is in no position to drive the anti-capitalist bloc out of Europe by force of arms; it is too far gone in the minority, and now that there has been a general rapprochement between the Syndicalists and the Soviets there is nowhere for the American bloc to turn.
Thus America has been forced towards a naked demonstration of its capitalism through pure cultural symbolism, which it hopes might permeate the European semiology with sufficient dexterity to subvert our rigid conceptions of the violence that capital perpetrates. It is a clever strategy; rock ’n’ roll will win more converts than the OAS.
Chansonnier extraordinaire Serge Gainsbourg parodies the Americanised 'yé-yé' style of music,
pairing a bluesy instrumental with dark lyrics about sexual obsession.
Seeing as you mention OAS-Métro, what is your opinion of the suggestions that the United States government has been funding far-right terrorist groups in Algeria and in France?
I believe that these suggestions probably contain more than a little truth, although I personally can prove nothing.
In your view, is the completion of the Eurotunnel a cause for optimism?
Only a man with no soul could fail to be positive about the implications of such a thing. It is quite possible that with the Eurotunnel we are seeing a change in the mythology of engineering. The old equivalence of technological advancement with the demonstration of power has been overcome by a preference for the construction of new connectivities; despite the overall neomania of the project’s genesis, the Tunnel offers a great work that is useful to all, and expresses amity rather than adversity.
What is your attitude towards the Eurosyn more broadly?
Eurosyn gives us a framework within which the French people might reasonably agree amongst themselves on what it means to organise a French state. Casanova has been canny in this regard[2]; taking Kosygin’s visit as an endorsement of the Eurosyn has opened up space for the orthodox Left to overcome its scepticism of the Syndicate, on the basis that the Kremlin is not opposed to it. Thus there is an historic possibility finally to be rid of the Jacobin tendency within French radicalism; the Stalinists condemn themselves as reactionaries, and the modernisers appear all the more vital in comparison.
Finally, do you have anything to say about the situation in Britain?
I will leave Britain to her own trouble-makers.
_____________
1:
Louis Saillant, leader of the
Front de Gauche electoral coalition and Chairman of the Governing Council of France since 1963. He split from the
Force Ouvrière during the Algerian Crisis to form the
Union Syndicaliste, an internationalist party opposed to the unitarist Republican tradition.
2:
Laurent Casanova, French Communist leader and one of the most prominent ‘Eurocommunists’ within the PCF. In the wake of Alexei Kosygin’s meeting with Eurosyn Chairman Maurice Fauré at Antibes in April 1964, the Eurocommunists developed a revisionist Communist tendency that emphasised communist organisation within the structures of the European Syndicate. This revisionism was described by Italian Communist premier Luigi Gallo-Longo (1964–66) as an ‘
aggiornamento’: a ‘bringing things up to date’. In France, the tendency was opposed within the PCF by the anti-revisionist
Thorezistes and the Jacobin
Marchaisards, who remained sceptical of the Eurosyn.