Echoes of A New Tomorrow: Life after Revolution in the Commonwealth of Britain

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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

DensleyBlair

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Oh shit. Because he wasn't bluffing OTL, and the Russians already have loads of nukes in Cuba TTL.

Either both sides back down and take the nukes out of respective countries (which is a much greater pain for Germany and the US than it is for Cuba and Russia) or the world goes boom. Or, the crisis goes on for months/years, and then one of the two things above happens.

I'm thinking this leads to the collapse of Kennedy's presidency either way...

TBC getting over-excited again. At this point the US and Soviets will have ICBMs (that's just how the technology goes) and are entirely capable of nuking each other, and everyone else, even if Germany and Cuba are de-nuked. On a grand MAD/Balance of Terror scale this does not change a lot, at least in military and political circles.

A mutually agreed pull out probably happens after a bit of a chat, with some careful staging so no-one is seen to 'lose' (because neither need to or want to back down first, though I'm not ruling out Kruschev ballsing it up as per OTL). If there is a mutual pull out it will be followed shortly by the German Luftwaffe getting a load of dual-key nukes, so Germany will still get the safety of a nuclear deterrent but a bit less dramatically. The Soviets could do the same in Cuba I suppose, but fundamentally I doubt Castro would want them. He was very reluctant to take the missiles in OTL and the bomber option would be even more obviously 'Soviet Puppet' (Soviet aircraft, soviet pilots and Soviet political officers with all the nuke keys, because no-way are actual Cubans being trusted with them).

Heartened to see that this has already sparked such pointed divergence between the two of you. Suggests at least this is not entirely a foregone conclusion. Lots of plates spinning all around the world, plenty still up in the air…

Pending some technical obstacles KH will have the next instalment for us shortly from Kennedy's end.
 
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Wraith11B

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Expanded submarines seems to be an emerging consensus. The specifics of anti-Soviet operations will become more clear as we move through the Sixties, as politics shift.
I will dissent against the submarine plans, because what is the mission? If you are looking to stop Germany-US convoys then there are easier ways of doing that at pinch points and the Soviets have not got any convoys to stop. On the diplomatic front, and for East of Suez, Submarines are crap at 'showing the flag' compared to surface vessels for hopefully obvious reasons.
Maybe I'm the one who is missing something, but why are the CW and the Soviets going to be buddy-buddy again? Land-based conflict is fine, it's remarkably apt, but one ignores the sea at their own peril.

People sometimes overlook the "show the flag" ability of submarines. It's not necessarily like a CTF, for sure, but let's take a more recent example: where are submarines showing up? The US recently allowed their Seawolf-class SSNs to be photographed making port visits to Norway. That's a big deal to have those most heavily armed subs seen that close to Rus(Soviet)sian waters. It's a big thing to say "We're operating this here, so now you have to adjust your strategy/operations to deal with them."

I envisage most maritime activity to be trade oriented, yeah. I don't think force projection is a big part of the CW's Cold War strategy.
Maybe I've missed something but why would Britain and EuroSyn care about the Atlantic at all? It's not like WW2/Cold War where vital convoys from the US and Canada have to cross over, if the entire Atlantic ends up swarming with Soviets subs then.... good? There is nothing there that Eurosyn care about. Trade is going to be across the Channel, in/around the Med and maybe to bits of Africa, but even then I have doubts.

Maybe I've missed something but why would Britain and EuroSyn care about the Atlantic at all? It's not like WW2/Cold War where vital convoys from the US and Canada have to cross over, if the entire Atlantic ends up swarming with Soviets subs then.... good? There is nothing there that Eurosyn care about. Trade is going to be across the Channel, in/around the Med and maybe to bits of Africa, but even then I have doubts.
Looking at the map, the US has to get to Germany to prop their allies up in Central Europe. Easiest place to stop that is going to be just off the ports of the United States, rather than in the middle of the Atlantic, and certainly safer than allowing the US to freely operate their (what I assume would be similar to OTL) massive Carrier Task Forces with impunity. With Iceland and Norway not aligned to the CW/Eurosyn, they form rather easy bases from which the US can operate. A three way war (or even a two-way war) between the three poles would likely result in a fight around Iceland, then Norway. Regardless, Britain is in the middle, and that's never a good place to be with navies flippin' missiles and torpedoes at one another, because the CW ships will be sunk in the crossfire. The US also might even draw the Eurosyn into a war if one broke out between the Soviets and US, because it would let them get rid of the CW (Freedom the Fuck out of London!).

Particularly considering that the Med is pretty much entirely Eurosyn home waters, Greece and Turkey apart. Yugoslavia have a monopoly in the Adriatic of course, but other than that it's a fairly low threat zone. Particularly compared to the Baltic…
Yes, the Med is "Mare Nostrum" for the Eurosyn, but that doesn't mean the Soviets wouldn't contest it. It's also not really deep enough for the Eurosyn to hide any SSBNs in, because why would you put those sorts of vessels that close to their bases? The situation with Turkey/Greece being relatively independent means that if they choose to, the Soviets can get a clear way to get into the Med, which if they do their historic builds, they can cause serious disruption to the southern flank of Eurosyn. Yugoslavia can play kingmaker and contest the Adriatic, but they're subject to Italy's ability to fly missions over their territory depending on how Yugo breaks.

I'll have more on this for you as we head into the latter half of the Sixties. There will be an 'East of Suez' debate towards the end of the decade.
Can't wait! Not to pressure you, but perhaps another map similar to the January War one for Africa and Asia?

I don't foresee any actual naval combat, frankly. Power projection will probably be done in other, softer ways (eg through the CBC) so really my only other thoughts would be possibly maintaining a sort of 'humanitarian' fleet, though where this might immediately be required I don't know.
If there is going to be war between the US/ECZ and anyone, it's going to have a naval component. Without it, the US just basically has to accept whatever happens, as would the Soviets and that doesn't make sense.

As an aside, what happened to Australia and New Zealand? I'm less interested in India, but without a navy, the ANZACs are basically US territory.

I think it's very likely that military operations will become more and more coordinated. After all, they've already pooled their nuclear programme, and although the Eurosyn does serve a political/economic function it is predominately about Cold War diplomacy. At this point there's basically no need for the ES nations to maintain individual forces, except I suppose the 'flagship' projects and small stuff for local work, as you say. Really the only possible zones of contention are going to be the GIUK–North Sea–Baltic area, where Germany gives the US a possible in, and maybe I guess pushing into the Atlantic beyond Sole/FitzRoy? Idk, I suppose ti would rely on either Eire or Portugal going rogue…
As you say some sort of North Sea picket between Scotland and Norway to cut any link between Germany and the US makes sense, but that is a much easier proposition than the GIUK gap and one you can do entirely with aircraft. Even the Bay of Biscay you can cover fairly easily given the coast is friendly.
I'd argue that this would cede much of the Atlantic to the US. Without the naval programmes of submarines, you're not contesting the sea, and thus the Brits are cut off from the rest of the CW.

Were I the US in this situation, I'd have plans to seize/lease Iceland, Bermuda and the Azores/Canaries. I don't recall if anything's been said about the CW in the Carib, but the Brits can basically forget about keeping them. The situation between the US/GER and Soviets in TTL over missiles in Cuba/Germany has both sides on basically equal footing: they would have to force transit over a vast ocean with the last third of the transit being contested by the other side. Once there, it's easy for the US to permit their B52s to reduce the Eurosyn to ash, after the USN flips a bunch of cruise missiles into Eurosyn air bases.

It is worse than I feared. The 'British Navy' *spits* may end up with ships as awful as the Germans F-125 frigates, arguably one of the worst ships an allegedly modern nation has ever ineptly nailed together. Just about capable of sitting off shore and showing a flag, but incapable of actually fighting as it is slow, large, under-armed and has many fundamental design flaws.

I read about that ship and wondered if the Germans were just using it as an excuse to quit the naval game entirely.
 

El Pip

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Looking at the map, the US has to get to Germany to prop their allies up in Central Europe. Easiest place to stop that is going to be just off the ports of the United States rather than in the middle of the Atlantic
US East Coast along is what 2,000 miles long, then add on the Gulf of Mexico ports as well, that's a hell of a length to blockade. I hope we can agree the Channel is not a viable route, so surely the easiest place to stop the convoys is actually the 500mile wide Scotland-Norway gap? A couple of AWACS to get radar coverage then send in the Buccaneers on any convoy that dares risk it, if the US risks sending in a CTF as escoty then even better - you've forced them to put a valuable asset into the lions den and shackled it to a slow moving convoy.

, and certainly safer than allowing the US to freely operate their (what I assume would be similar to OTL) massive Carrier Task Forces with impunity. With Iceland and Norway not aligned to the CW/Eurosyn, they form rather easy bases from which the US can operate. A three way war (or even a two-way war) between the three poles would likely result in a fight around Iceland, then Norway. Regardless, Britain is in the middle, and that's never a good place to be with navies flippin' missiles and torpedoes at one another, because the CW ships will be sunk in the crossfire.
All else being equal a land-based plane will be better than a carrier aircraft, the various naval gear and extra stressing all adds weight and takes away some combination of performance/range/weapons load. USN CTFs can wander around the Atlantic to their hearts content, but if they head anywhere near the North Sea they will be facing a great deal of land based air that should, plane for plane, be superior in performance and cheaper, because they don't have the carrier compromises.

Of course if the US has a big tech edge they may be confident of taking on superior numbers of aircraft, but if they have a big tech edge that that is another good reason for the CW not to build a fleet that will be badly out-classed.

It's also not really deep enough for the Eurosyn to hide any SSBNs in, because why would you put those sorts of vessels that close to their bases?
Ideally they'd be quiet enough to just hide in mid-Atlantic, but that would depend on relative tech and we've got no feel for that. If they are a bit vulnerable then I wonder if they would try and hide in the northern North Sea where it gets a bit deeper, while the rest of CW/Eurosyn run a Bastion Strategy to defend them, ala the Soviets and the Barents Sea towards the end of the Cold War. Fortress Shetland covered in radar, SAMs and air bases full of fighters and maritime strike aircraft, that sort of thing. Fortress Shetland also works as the centrepiece of the 'stop US convoys getting to Germany' plan as it's ideally placed to control and block the North Sea approaches.

The situation with Turkey/Greece being relatively independent means that if they choose to, the Soviets can get a clear way to get into the Med, which if they do their historic builds, they can cause serious disruption to the southern flank of Eurosyn. Yugoslavia can play kingmaker and contest the Adriatic, but they're subject to Italy's ability to fly missions over their territory depending on how Yugo breaks.
The Kingmaker is surely Turkey, they control the Bosphorus and there will be some kind of convention on what they will and won't let through. The Soviets can force it I suppose and maybe convince Turkey to not declare war, if the Soviets are very clearly winning elsewhere then why risk it, but if the Soviets are already winning then it makes no difference. But as you say if the Soviets can get a force through, pre-positioned ships for when they know a war/tension is coming, then it could get very messy. Or at least tie down a lot of Eurosyn forces hunting them all down.

I'd argue that this would cede much of the Atlantic to the US. Without the naval programmes of submarines, you're not contesting the sea, and thus the Brits are cut off from the rest of the CW.
This is true, I just don't think London cares. Or at least not enough to actually spend any money on it. I'd assume the British plan would to write off any Caribbean possessions (if they even still have any) as strategically irrelevant, if they win then they will get them back at the peace conference, if they lose then it didn't matter. And if everyone dies in a nuclear war then they really didn't matter.

Once there, it's easy for the US to permit their B52s to reduce the Eurosyn to ash, after the USN flips a bunch of cruise missiles into Eurosyn air bases.
The counter to that is to have an aerial radar picket a few hundred miles off the coast, ground based radar and AWACS picking up any USN CTF that tries to get close, then hit it with a massive air strike. Victors with cruise missiles up high and Buccaneers annoying the fish at wave level. Co-ordinate with anything else you have lying about and have a shed load of fighters, both to take on the US fighters and to stop any incoming US bombers. It is all very late Cold War but it's a plausible plan.

I admit it would do better with a few SSNs to also threaten the US CTFs, but SSNs are really expensive and you can get a lot of extra land based squadrons for the money. Plus at a pinch you can hand that mission off to someone else in Eurosyn with who you are hopefully co-ordinating. Even if the co-ordination is crap that's fine because you don't actually need to attack the US with a sub, just make it plausible so they have to keep running ASW drills and devote a chunk of deck space to ASW assets.

I suppose I do agree that a blank bit of paper, designed from scratch CW naval force should have some submarines in it, not so much for attacking convoys but for threatening US or Soviet task forces. I just think you can make the strategy work without them and given the politics and history involved, not to mention the costs, an all air-force option seems the way the CW would go.

I read about that ship and wondered if the Germans were just using it as an excuse to quit the naval game entirely.
You do have to wonder. It was only a couple of years back the Germans had to admit their entire submarine fleet was out of action, due to either maintenance, refit or accidental collision (one of their subs got the nickname 'Organ Doner' for hopefully obvious reasons). But I suppose these things will happen when your armed forces exist purely as an industrial subsidy scheme / showcase for foreign arms sales.
 

TheButterflyComposer

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You do have to wonder. It was only a couple of years back the Germans had to admit their entire submarine fleet was out of action, due to either maintenance, refit or accidental collision (one of their subs got the nickname 'Organ Doner' for hopefully obvious reasons). But I suppose these things will happen when your armed forces exist purely as an industrial subsidy scheme / showcase for foreign arms sales.

Nice gig if you can get it. To be fair, there is little reason for Germany to have a navy when it has an EU. There's not much reason for any European nation to have a navy...except France, I guess, because France is the Queen of not letting the empire go...

Of all the things the past few years have dredged up, the NATO funding gap and the huge deficit of investment in every armed force in the world except the US and China...isn't really the most attention grabbing thing. Still, it looks like everyone has decided it is now very important, and is rushing to boast up whatever the traditional national source of pride is.

Now, I may just be an un-informed armchair strategist (leans back in wingback and puffs at cigar), but I reckon this is going to end...poorly. Probably just a huge waste of time, money and resources we could have used doing something else, but maybe someone really is about to go mental and start doing worryingly authoritarian things to their own population (cough cough France).
 

Wraith11B

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US East Coast along is what 2,000 miles long, then add on the Gulf of Mexico ports as well, that's a hell of a length to blockade. I hope we can agree the Channel is not a viable route, so surely the easiest place to stop the convoys is actually the 500mile wide Scotland-Norway gap? A couple of AWACS to get radar coverage then send in the Buccaneers on any convoy that dares risk it, if the US risks sending in a CTF as escoty then even better - you've forced them to put a valuable asset into the lions den and shackled it to a slow moving convoy.
The issue I see is that having a bunch of AWACs is that it is like having a spotlight against the dark ocean: they can see those emissions, and can plot around them, or play electronic games with them. Not to mention that the Norway portion of that "gap" only matters if there are assets to cover that side, and if the Americans haven't either persuaded or threatened the Norwegians into their team. I've not heard about any Radar Ocean Reconnaissance satellites, so the British would be playing the Bear Hunting game much like the Soviets did, and likely would be losing those assets at fair-to-middling ratios.

This might just be coming from an offensive-minded not-even-a-sailor, but playing defensive and all doesn't strike me as a very British mentality.

All else being equal a land-based plane will be better than a carrier aircraft, the various naval gear and extra stressing all adds weight and takes away some combination of performance/range/weapons load. USN CTFs can wander around the Atlantic to their hearts content, but if they head anywhere near the North Sea they will be facing a great deal of land based air that should, plane for plane, be superior in performance and cheaper, because they don't have the carrier compromises.

Of course if the US has a big tech edge they may be confident of taking on superior numbers of aircraft, but if they have a big tech edge that that is another good reason for the CW not to build a fleet that will be badly out-classed.
That's fair. But before you throw a massive Alpha strike into the sea, you need to have the ISR assets up, and the USN--much like their OTL compatriots--likely have a Bear Hunting specialty.

Ideally they'd be quiet enough to just hide in mid-Atlantic, but that would depend on relative tech and we've got no feel for that. If they are a bit vulnerable then I wonder if they would try and hide in the northern North Sea where it gets a bit deeper, while the rest of CW/Eurosyn run a Bastion Strategy to defend them, ala the Soviets and the Barents Sea towards the end of the Cold War. Fortress Shetland covered in radar, SAMs and air bases full of fighters and maritime strike aircraft, that sort of thing. Fortress Shetland also works as the centrepiece of the 'stop US convoys getting to Germany' plan as it's ideally placed to control and block the North Sea approaches.
The question of course being since we don't have a traditional WW2 in TTL, does the german science boost to the US happen, which opens the door for the Polaris/Poseidon/Trident SLBMs? Further, how far behind is the CW in terms of an SLBM (they piggy-backed on the Polaris and Trident, without that boost, how does it play?)

The issue I have with the bastion concept is that it ties the CW surface assets to a fixed location. Depending on the enemy, keeping them away from one side presents them to the other.

The Kingmaker is surely Turkey, they control the Bosphorus and there will be some kind of convention on what they will and won't let through. The Soviets can force it I suppose and maybe convince Turkey to not declare war, if the Soviets are very clearly winning elsewhere then why risk it, but if the Soviets are already winning then it makes no difference. But as you say if the Soviets can get a force through, pre-positioned ships for when they know a war/tension is coming, then it could get very messy. Or at least tie down a lot of Eurosyn forces hunting them all down.
I'd imagine that with the CW/Eurosyn in control of North Africa, you have basically something akin to the Black Sea: a super anti-ship missile engagement zone. It would get very hairy, very quickly for any ship in the area.

This is true, I just don't think London cares. Or at least not enough to actually spend any money on it. I'd assume the British plan would to write off any Caribbean possessions (if they even still have any) as strategically irrelevant, if they win then they will get them back at the peace conference, if they lose then it didn't matter. And if everyone dies in a nuclear war then they really didn't matter.
Quite.

The counter to that is to have an aerial radar picket a few hundred miles off the coast, ground based radar and AWACS picking up any USN CTF that tries to get close, then hit it with a massive air strike. Victors with cruise missiles up high and Buccaneers annoying the fish at wave level. Co-ordinate with anything else you have lying about and have a shed load of fighters, both to take on the US fighters and to stop any incoming US bombers. It is all very late Cold War but it's a plausible plan.

I admit it would do better with a few SSNs to also threaten the US CTFs, but SSNs are really expensive and you can get a lot of extra land based squadrons for the money. Plus at a pinch you can hand that mission off to someone else in Eurosyn with who you are hopefully co-ordinating. Even if the co-ordination is crap that's fine because you don't actually need to attack the US with a sub, just make it plausible so they have to keep running ASW drills and devote a chunk of deck space to ASW assets.
As I mentioned above, it is contingent upon being able to find the CTFs. The USN had around 12 of the long-deck Essex- and the 3 Midway-class fleet carriers, as well as 4 Forrestal-class super carriers historically in 1960, and with that many flattops, being where the CW isn't would likely not be as difficult. Further, you have likely far more experienced aviators from the Japan adventure, and all of the British fighters of the age generally had short legs, which means that they're not ranging far out to sea.

I suppose I do agree that a blank bit of paper, designed from scratch CW naval force should have some submarines in it, not so much for attacking convoys but for threatening US or Soviet task forces. I just think you can make the strategy work without them and given the politics and history involved, not to mention the costs, an all air-force option seems the way the CW would go.
This seems like an argument similar to one that someone might have regarding the PRC between the 1990s and early aughts. They're not a naval power, but the shame of basically being unable to answer when a pair of USN CTFs basically trail their coat up and down your coast (or operate just outside of ones' engagement range) would probably cause heads to roll, even amongst the CW. Regardless of how wild this CW is, there is one thing that the British don't do and it's sacrifice their Navy for anything (my AAR to the contrary!).

You do have to wonder. It was only a couple of years back the Germans had to admit their entire submarine fleet was out of action, due to either maintenance, refit or accidental collision (one of their subs got the nickname 'Organ Doner' for hopefully obvious reasons). But I suppose these things will happen when your armed forces exist purely as an industrial subsidy scheme / showcase for foreign arms sales.
Yeah, the Germans mimic one of the worst bits of the petro-states and other low-tier powers: treating their militaries as some sort of boutique.
 

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Nice gig if you can get it. To be fair, there is little reason for Germany to have a navy when it has an EU. There's not much reason for any European nation to have a navy...except France, I guess, because France is the Queen of not letting the empire go...

Of all the things the past few years have dredged up, the NATO funding gap and the huge deficit of investment in every armed force in the world except the US and China...isn't really the most attention grabbing thing. Still, it looks like everyone has decided it is now very important, and is rushing to boast up whatever the traditional national source of pride is.

Now, I may just be an un-informed armchair strategist (leans back in wingback and puffs at cigar), but I reckon this is going to end...poorly. Probably just a huge waste of time, money and resources we could have used doing something else, but maybe someone really is about to go mental and start doing worryingly authoritarian things to their own population (cough cough France).
I am changing what TBC stands for, it is now The Born-again Chamberlain. Who needs any weapons or armaments, that nice Mr Putin has slightly implied that annexing the Crimea is his last territorial ambition. Is that not enough to declare peace in our time? It is also clear that the last few years have proven that the US will always be there to bail out the EU and it's lack of military when required and ,given the positive and friendly spirit of the EU's position on Brexit, there can be no doubt the UK will also remain a firm friend and defender. ( Because I know you love a good Brexit reference :) ;) )

Mildly facetious to be sure, but there are authoritarian regimes on the rise and it sure as hell is not in France. If anything I'm amazed their reaction to the endless string of beheadings and attacks has been so mild. I am very un-amazed that non-French journalists have completely misunderstood what is going on and are trying to project their domestic views onto a very French problem.

The issue I see is that having a bunch of AWACs is that it is like having a spotlight against the dark ocean: they can see those emissions, and can plot around them, or play electronic games with them. Not to mention that the Norway portion of that "gap" only matters if there are assets to cover that side, and if the Americans haven't either persuaded or threatened the Norwegians into their team. I've not heard about any Radar Ocean Reconnaissance satellites, so the British would be playing the Bear Hunting game much like the Soviets did, and likely would be losing those assets at fair-to-middling ratios.
On the satellites, well I'm assuming there will be spy and recon satellites mixed in with the Galilieos that EuroSyn are launching. It may take a while to get a RORSAT type capability but it can be done and it is so obvious I'm assuming they are doing it.

Shetlands are mid-way ish between UK and Norway, so you can easily cover both sides out to the 3mile/12mile limit (whatever it ends up being) of Norwegian waters without anything being based in Norway. As you say the US will try and convince Norway to ally, but then so will EuroSyn and they are the bigger trading partner so have more to offer in peacetime. If Norway has any sense they will try and stay neutral, but of course may not succeed.

This might just be coming from an offensive-minded not-even-a-sailor, but playing defensive and all doesn't strike me as a very British mentality.
Tolerating a miserable socialist dictatorship is not very British either, yet here we are.

That's fair. But before you throw a massive Alpha strike into the sea, you need to have the ISR assets up, and the USN--much like their OTL compatriots--likely have a Bear Hunting specialty.
It will absolutely be a fight, lots of complex games of recon and anti-recon, electronic warfare and low tricks on both sides. But the point is that the CW don't need a surface navy to make it a fight and that going all-air suits their domestic concerns, or at least it suited Moselely's domestic concerns and obsession with high tech and aero.

The question of course being since we don't have a traditional WW2 in TTL, does the german science boost to the US happen, which opens the door for the Polaris/Poseidon/Trident SLBMs? Further, how far behind is the CW in terms of an SLBM (they piggy-backed on the Polaris and Trident, without that boost, how does it play?)
If you can put a satellite into a decent orbit, you have an ICBM. Once you have that capability a crude 'launch from surface' SLBM is fairly easy, the Soviets had their first one ballistic missile armed sub operational a few months after they got the land based variant going. Getting a decent underwater launch capability is a bit harder, but nothing fundamentally difficult, neither is adding range.

If they want the capability they probably have it by now, they have done the hard bits it is just integrating tech they already have. First few subs might be a bit ropey (they were for everyone else) but would still be enough of a capability to be a threat, as long as their is a chance one will survive and get it's missiles somewhere near target then it is job done in deterrence terms.

The issue I have with the bastion concept is that it ties the CW surface assets to a fixed location. Depending on the enemy, keeping them away from one side presents them to the other.
Or just not having any surface assets and using air power, which is easily deployable elsewhere at (relatively) short notice.

As I mentioned above, it is contingent upon being able to find the CTFs. The USN had around 12 of the long-deck Essex- and the 3 Midway-class fleet carriers, as well as 4 Forrestal-class super carriers historically in 1960, and with that many flattops, being where the CW isn't would likely not be as difficult. Further, you have likely far more experienced aviators from the Japan adventure, and all of the British fighters of the age generally had short legs, which means that they're not ranging far out to sea.
On the last point I'm assuming different doctrine means different requirements so there will be longer legged fighters. It wasn't that they couldn't do longer ranged, but that they prioritised different things and chose performance over range (to an extreme level in the Lightning). Here something like the Tornado F.3 is required, a long ranged missile truck that cannot dogfight for toffee but has a good radar and can patrol for 8 hrs before unleashing a lot of air-to-air missiles on incoming bombers/attack aircraft.

About this time a Victor BR.2 could map the entire Mediterranean in less than 7hours. I have no doubt quite a few would get shot down, but I think a decent perimeter could be maintained. The CW may not know where the US CTFs are hiding in the mid-Atlantic, but they would know they were at least xx hundred miles off shore and any strike would be picked up on radar with plenty of warning.

This seems like an argument similar to one that someone might have regarding the PRC between the 1990s and early aughts. They're not a naval power, but the shame of basically being unable to answer when a pair of USN CTFs basically trail their coat up and down your coast (or operate just outside of ones' engagement range) would probably cause heads to roll, even amongst the CW. Regardless of how wild this CW is, there is one thing that the British don't do and it's sacrifice their Navy for anything (my AAR to the contrary!).
As discussed I fear the CW is no longer British in any meaningful way. They probably mostly drink coffee, talk to people on public transport and other such heresies. :(
 
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I won’t go through and respond to the naval discussion in detail, if only because me contributing owt would be absolutely pointless, but I will say that it’s all very informative so please all feel free to continue at your leisure.

Tolerating a miserable socialist dictatorship is not very British either, yet here we are.

The secret is Mosley. Recall that the country has been run by a motley mix of Butskellite chancers for the past fifteen years.

As discussed I fear the CW is no longer British in any meaningful way. They probably mostly drink coffee, talk to people on public transport and other such heresies. :(

Coffee… maybe, maybe not. Hobsbawm opened the Partisan Café in express opposition to the takeover of Soho by the espresso bar. Probably as Eurosyn does some more mixing into the Sixties Britain will begin to enjoy wonderful new things like West European cuisine.

Public transport… well, there’s certainly a lot more of it in this world. I suppose statistically there has to be more conversation.
 
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Still a long way back, but anyway, on the 1927 Hobsbawm chapter:
the ritual sacrifice of Winston Churchill, who was dismissed from his cabinet post as chancellor of the exchequer having co-ordinated the bulk of the government’s efforts in setting up a paramilitary force in defence against industrial action.
Of course, it was not the deaths of working men that he regretted; he profoundly regretted the apparent death of his own ministerial career.
Methinks Churchill is not going to be fondly remembered in this time line! By anyone - especially Baldwin.
Mineworkers on the picket, early summer 1927.
Aye, plenty of good cloth caps there. But a bloody business in the end.
 
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Still a long way back, but anyway, on the 1927 Hobsbawm chapter:

Very happy to hear you are still plugging away! It's been ages since I've been back to any of those early chapters, so I will be interested to see what you pick up on. :)

Methinks Churchill is not going to be fondly remembered in this time line! By anyone - especially Baldwin.

You just may be on to something there… :D

Aye, plenty of good cloth caps there. But a bloody busi in the end.

Absolutely, and it is ever thus. Back in the 'present' (well, 1964) we are only a little time away from more mining-related action, so rest assured (?) that the pits of the CW are not a land of milk and honey.

Incidentally, I was watching this Richard Burton interview the other day. He is of course wonderfully fluent on just about any subject he cares to treat, but particularly mining. Even did a few adverts for the National Coal Board back in the day trying to recruit new miners! Fantastic hearing him rhapsodising about exactly the sort of people who would have led the revolution in this timeline, so I'll drop it below for any interested. :)

 
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Not to pressure you, but perhaps another map similar to the January War one for Africa and Asia?

Just to pick up on this, I've made a map for Asia which I'll put up when it becomes relevant in a few updates' time.

Africa really isn't that interesting; pretty much everyone is involved with the Afrosyn, with the exception of South Africa–Rhodesia and I suppose Liberia, and maybe Egypt. The US for now aren't all that interested in the continent, but I may revisit it in the Seventies when apartheid becomes more of a global diplomatic issue.

The Middle East is the only blackspot. It remains to be fully worked out, but if there is any major tension going forward into vol. 2 it will probably be there.
 
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Next up is an update from @99KingHigh which I'm posting for technical reasons. I hope none of you are too attached to your corporeal forms…
 
The Transatlantic Missile Crisis: Kennedy Speaks, Nov 30 1964

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ECHOES%20HEADER.jpg



"LESSONS FROM THE CRISIS"

PRESIDENT KENNEDY ADDRESSES THE NATION
NOVEMBER 30 1964


Walter Cronkite: Good evening. History is the news worth remembering, and you will remember the news this week. President Kennedy is expected to speak shortly on the Soviet military buildup in Cuba. The President returned with his wife and family to Washington yesterday after spending Thanksgiving in Cape Cod. Since President Kennedy defeated Governor Rockefeller earlier this month, all the attention has been paid to the growing nuclear crisis in Cuba. Well today, CBS associates were told by White House officials that the President would be addressing the country from the Oval Office this evening on the current crisis in Cuba. Only hours ago, Secretary of State Fulbright released a statement warning it was only a matter of time before the Soviets reinforced their offensive nuclear posture in Cuba with further medium-range missiles. The State Department supplemented Secretary Fulbright’s statement with a memorandum that declared the United States would not tolerate any infringement of the Monroe Doctrine or Soviet expansion in the Western Hemisphere…


1964 CRONKITE.jpg


President Kennedy: Good evening my fellow citizens.
This Government, as promised, has maintained the closest surveillance of the Soviet Military buildup on the island of Cuba. Within the past few weeks, unmistakable evidence has established the fact that a series of offensive missile sites are now in preparation on that imprisoned island. The purpose of these bases can be none other than to provide a nuclear strike capability against the Western Hemisphere. As in my previous statements, we have determined that the missiles are not yet operational. It is not clear, however, how long this will remain the case.
Yesterday, reliable intelligence detected Soviet transport ships departing the Soviet Union. Upon receiving the first preliminary hard information of this nature, I directed that our surveillance be stepped up. And having now confirmed and completed our evaluation of the evidence and our decision on a course of action, this Government feels obliged to report this new crisis to you in fullest detail.
It seems clear that this new transport is a deliberate attempt at provocation. We estimate that there are now in Cuba several intermediate range ballistic missiles, capable of traveling more than twice as far as medium range weapons—and thus able to strike most of the major cities in the Western Hemisphere, ranging as far north as Hudson Bay in Canada, and as far south as Lima, Peru. In addition, jet bombers, capable of carrying nuclear weapons, are now being uncrated and assembled in Cuba, while the necessary air bases are being prepared.
This urgent transformation of Cuba into an important strategic base—by the presence of these large, long range, and clearly offensive weapons of sudden mass destruction-—constitutes an explicit threat to the peace and security of all the Americas, in flagrant and deliberate defiance of the traditions of this Nation and the Monroe Doctrine, the joint resolution of the 88th Congress, and my own public warnings to the Soviet Union. This action also contradicts the repeated assurances of Soviet spokesmen, both publicly and privately delivered, that the arms buildup in Cuba would retain its original defensive character, and that the Soviet Union had no need or desire to station strategic missiles on the territory of any other nation.
1964 JFK.jpg
The size of this undertaking makes clear that it has been planned for some months. Yet only this past October, after I had made clear the distinction between any introduction of ground-to-ground missiles and the existence of defensive anti-aircraft missiles, the Soviet Government publicly stated on September 11, and I quote, "the armaments and military equipment sent to Cuba are designed exclusively for defensive purposes”; that—and I quote—"there is no need for the Soviet Government to shift its weapons . . . for a retaliatory blow to any other country, for instance Cuba"; and that—I quote their government again—"the Soviet Union has such powerful rockets to carry these nuclear warheads that there is no need to search for sites for them beyond the boundaries of the Soviet Union." That statement was false.
Only last Thursday, as evidence of this rapid offensive buildup was already in my hand, Soviet Foreign Minister Gromyko told me in my office that he was instructed to make it clear once again, as he said his government had already done, that Soviet assistance to Cuba, and I quote, "pursued solely the purpose of contributing to the the defense capabilities of Cuba," that, and I quote him, "training by Soviet specialists of Cuban nationals in handling defensive armaments was by no means offensive, and if it were otherwise," Mr. Gromyko went on, "the Soviet Government would never become involved in rendering such assistance." That statement also was false.
Neither the United States of America nor its allies can tolerate deliberate deception and offensive threats on the part of any nation, large or small. We no longer live in a world where only the actual firing of weapons represents a sufficient challenge to a nation's security to constitute maximum peril. Nuclear weapons are so destructive and ballistic missiles are so swift, that any substantially increased possibility of their use or any sudden change in their deployment may well be regarded as a definite threat to peace.
But this secret, swift, and extraordinary buildup of Communist missiles—in an area well known to have a special and historical relationship to the United States and the nations of the Western Hemisphere, in violation of Soviet assurances, and in defiance of American and hemispheric policy; this sudden, clandestine decision to station strategic weapons for the first time outside of Soviet soil—is a deliberately provocative and unjustified change in the status quo which cannot be accepted by this country, if our courage and our commitments are ever to be trusted again by either friend or foe…
UBnKYKy.jpg
 
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Loads of hot air and no action or are the two sides about to get into some form of shooting match, if only with words and diplomacy?
 

99KingHigh

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DensleyBlair

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Loads of hot air and no action or are the two sides about to get into some form of shooting match, if only with words and diplomacy?

Anything is possible when Kennedy and Khrushchev square up to each other.

Who's piping all this Vera Lynn into the thread?

He did try to warn us…

Mr Kubrick is presumably sweating himself silly in a bunker somewhere at the moment, petrified that he is about to receive a knock on the door from the British intelligence services asking where on earth he got his intel.
 

El Pip

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Loads of hot air and no action or are the two sides about to get into some form of shooting match, if only with words and diplomacy?
It's the OTL Kennedy speech (minus a few bits) and the crisis has all OTL players. Given the overwhelming Historical Determinism displayed to get to this position despite all the changes that have happened, an OTL-ish outcome seems most likely. Maybe a bit less of a clear cut PR 'win' for Kennedy, but something broadly similar.
 

TheButterflyComposer

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It's the OTL Kennedy speech (minus a few bits) and the crisis has all OTL players. Given the overwhelming Historical Determinism displayed to get to this position despite all the changes that have happened, an OTL-ish outcome seems most likely. Maybe a bit less of a clear cut PR 'win' for Kennedy, but something broadly similar.

Remember the communists win at the end though.
 

El Pip

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DensleyBlair

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It's the OTL Kennedy speech (minus a few bits) and the crisis has all OTL players. Given the overwhelming Historical Determinism displayed to get to this position despite all the changes that have happened, an OTL-ish outcome seems most likely. Maybe a bit less of a clear cut PR 'win' for Kennedy, but something broadly similar.

All the OTL players plus a few others. Hopefully still some room to make sure things don't get too hackneyed.