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Kryndude

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Just came up with this idea while commenting on a thread. Make it so that cavalry don't substitute infantry by allocating set number of blocks on each flank to cavalry only depending on a country's flanking range value (e.g. 3 on each flank, total 6 blocks can only be filled with cav if one of the battle participant has flanking range 3). If you don't bring cavs now you're guaranteed to get flanked, and even if you do you get flanked by countries with superior flanking range. Now all three unit types have their unique roles so no matter how they're balanced you have to use them all.


Unintentional benefit of this fix: separate terrain modifiers can be added to individual unit types to represent cav and artillery not working in jungle, etc.


Better, easier fix:
I like the idea to extent the maximal combat width on the frontline. But I am not so sure about the cav and infantry only spots as they lead to cav having a similar role to artillery right now,
insofar as there is an optimal number of regiments (Combat width for artillery and 2x flanking range for cav) and anything more is useless and anything less is basically suicide.
Wouldn't just extending the frontline width be enough, as it would create spots on the frontline without artillery support and the main reason why cav struggles vs infantry in the late game is artillery support. ( You can test this with your combat simulator if you want, but there are quite a few techs where cav vs inf without artillery is quite good for the cav)
This would be even easier you just have to extend the frontline width and nothing more and would lead to a variety of strategies which could be potentially viable (no cav, cav on flanks, more cav if you have a lot of cav CA) and more interesting unit choices as different cav types could be better at beating cav respectively infantry.
If cav is still underwhelming one could adjust combat ability modifiers from ideas/policies a bit to give more cav CA and less inf CA to balance it out.

This would make flanking range a good modifier the same as your suggestion but cav/inf ratio would still have a place for heavy cav armies. I am also unsure if having a lot of flanking range coming from maneuver pips is a good idea as maneuver is already strong and CW gets very large even if you nerf the base CW from tech.
 
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Lightwell

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Just came up with this idea while commenting on a thread. Make it so that cavalry don't substitute infantry by allocating set number of blocks on each flank to cavalry only depending on a country's flanking range value (e.g. 3 on each flank, total 6 blocks can only be filled with cav if one of the battle participant has flanking range 3). If you don't bring cavs now you're guaranteed to get flanked, and even if you do you get flanked by countries with superior flanking range. Now all three unit types have their unique roles so no matter how they're balanced you have to use them all.

So, where in the battle is the cavalry, and who are they able to flank? Also, how will they be attacked?
 

PyroMegaManZ

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This sounds like quite a nice idea to keep cavalry as a consistent option to have, giving them a specific purpose like artillery. Will flanking range add to your standard combat width i.e. if you have combat width of 30 and flanking range of 4, will you get to have 38 units in your front row? Bonuses such as having higher cavalry to infantry ratios might get you higher flanking range, and maybe each pip of maneuver your general has could add to your flanking range etc.?

So, where in the battle is the cavalry, and who are they able to flank? Also, how will they be attacked?
I could be wrong, but what I have interpreted from the suggestion is that the cavalry will have dedicated spots on each side of the front-row but other than that all other traits stay the same.
 

Kryndude

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This sounds like quite a nice idea to keep cavalry as a consistent option to have, giving them a specific purpose like artillery. Will flanking range add to your standard combat width i.e. if you have combat width of 30 and flanking range of 4, will you get to have 38 units in your front row? Bonuses such as having higher cavalry to infantry ratios might get you higher flanking range, and maybe each pip of maneuver your general has could add to your flanking range etc.?


I could be wrong, but what I have interpreted from the suggestion is that the cavalry will have dedicated spots on each side of the front-row but other than that all other traits stay the same.
Your interpretation is correct, and it seems it's not as simple as I thought it'd be. Combat width can be easily tweaked to fit the new system but cav/inf ratio is a bit of a problem. Most straightforward way I can think of is to replace it with additional cav flanking range. Tying general maneuver to combat width also sounds interesting and reasonable, because with this change you'd want to open up a way to (at least conditionally) counter a cav flanking range disadvantage.
 

Kryndude

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I don't understand where that is, or how many units they'd be able to attack in a given scenario.
Currently cavs are automatically placed on each flank, but those spots now become exclusive to cavs. Everything else is the same. Cavs attack opposing cavs and flank infantries if none exist. This 'cav spot' isn't fixed and move toward the center if there's fewer enemy troops. So basically, think of it as adding additional combat width just for cavs and that cav width is determined by flanking range. Substitute cav/inf ration with cav flanking range bonus. Each general maneuver pip increases combat width by 1 so you can try to prevent getting flanked by a, say, nomad army with superior cav flanking range by bringing high maneuver general.
 

Lightwell

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Going to try rephrasing what I just read.
1.) Cavalry units will become exempt from the max Combat Width stat, having theirs be separate and determined by Flanking Range.
2.) Cavalry units will move inwards as the enemy's lines shrink, as Arumba recommended in his video on cavalry units.
3.) Cav/inf ratio as a stat will be replaced with Flanking Range modifiers.

Did I properly understand what you were saying?
 

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Going to try rephrasing what I just read.
1.) Cavalry units will become exempt from the max Combat Width stat, having theirs be separate and determined by Flanking Range.
2.) Cavalry units will move inwards as the enemy's lines shrink, as Arumba recommended in his video on cavalry units.
3.) Cav/inf ratio as a stat will be replaced with Flanking Range modifiers.

Did I properly understand what you were saying?
Yes, pretty much. One more thing.

4) Each general maneuver pip grants one additional combat width. Base value from tech should be tweaked to prevent inflation.
 
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Tempscire

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Just came up with this idea while commenting on a thread. Make it so that cavalry don't substitute infantry by allocating set number of blocks on each flank to cavalry only depending on a country's flanking range value (e.g. 3 on each flank, total 6 blocks can only be filled with cav if one of the battle participant has flanking range 3). If you don't bring cavs now you're guaranteed to get flanked, and even if you do you get flanked by countries with superior flanking range. Now all three unit types have their unique roles so no matter how they're balanced you have to use them all.


Unintentional benefit of this fix: separate terrain modifiers can be added to individual unit types to represent cav and artillery not working in jungle, etc.


I like the idea to extent the maximal combat width on the frontline. But I am not so sure about the cav and infantry only spots as they lead to cav having a similar role to artillery right now,
insofar as there is an optimal number of regiments (Combat width for artillery and 2x flanking range for cav) and anything more is useless and anything less is basically suicide.
Wouldn't just extending the frontline width be enough, as it would create spots on the frontline without artillery support and the main reason why cav struggles vs infantry in the late game is artillery support. ( You can test this with your combat simulator if you want, but there are quite a few techs where cav vs inf without artillery is quite good for the cav)
This would be even easier you just have to extend the frontline width and nothing more and would lead to a variety of strategies which could be potentially viable (no cav, cav on flanks, more cav if you have a lot of cav CA) and more interesting unit choices as different cav types could be better at beating cav respectively infantry.
If cav is still underwhelming one could adjust combat ability modifiers from ideas/policies a bit to give more cav CA and less inf CA to balance it out.

This would make flanking range a good modifier the same as your suggestion but cav/inf ratio would still have a place for heavy cav armies. I am also unsure if having a lot of flanking range coming from maneuver pips is a good idea as maneuver is already strong and CW gets very large even if you nerf the base CW from tech.
 

Kryndude

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I like the idea to extent the maximal combat width on the frontline. But I am not so sure about the cav and infantry only spots as they lead to cav having a similar role to artillery right now,
insofar as there is an optimal number of regiments (Combat width for artillery and 2x flanking range for cav) and anything more is useless and anything less is basically suicide.
Wouldn't just extending the frontline width be enough, as it would create spots on the frontline without artillery support and the main reason why cav struggles vs infantry in the late game is artillery support. ( You can test this with your combat simulator if you want, but there are quite a few techs where cav vs inf without artillery is quite good for the cav)
This would be even easier you just have to extend the frontline width and nothing more and would lead to a variety of strategies which could be potentially viable (no cav, cav on flanks, more cav if you have a lot of cav CA) and more interesting unit choices as different cav types could be better at beating cav respectively infantry.
If cav is still underwhelming one could adjust combat ability modifiers from ideas/policies a bit to give more cav CA and less inf CA to balance it out.

This would make flanking range a good modifier the same as your suggestion but cav/inf ratio would still have a place for heavy cav armies. I am also unsure if having a lot of flanking range coming from maneuver pips is a good idea as maneuver is already strong and CW gets very large even if you nerf the base CW from tech.
Sounds great to me. Your idea will be easier to implement thus more likely to ever get accepted by the devs. Forget about what I said, I'm rooting for your version.

Anyone know if you can attack back row units directly?
You can't. Back row receive same morale damage as front row but that's not getting attacked directly.
 

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Litterally wanted to suggest this, but I gues you beat me to it lol. In any case this is very much needed, imo. Currently cav is kinda pointless as soon as you have large enough army to fill out the front row (unless you are Poland or hordes, I guess), which is kinda sad and ahistorical. Yes, there was a general shift away from cavalry to infantry based armies in the early modern period, but cav still remained hugely important as a flanking and reconnaissance force, which is not really represented in eu4 right now.
I like the idea to extent the maximal combat width on the frontline. But I am not so sure about the cav and infantry only spots as they lead to cav having a similar role to artillery right now,
insofar as there is an optimal number of regiments (Combat width for artillery and 2x flanking range for cav) and anything more is useless and anything less is basically suicide.
Wouldn't just extending the frontline width be enough, as it would create spots on the frontline without artillery support and the main reason why cav struggles vs infantry in the late game is artillery support. ( You can test this with your combat simulator if you want, but there are quite a few techs where cav vs inf without artillery is quite good for the cav)
This would be even easier you just have to extend the frontline width and nothing more and would lead to a variety of strategies which could be potentially viable (no cav, cav on flanks, more cav if you have a lot of cav CA) and more interesting unit choices as different cav types could be better at beating cav respectively infantry.
Well yes, cav would have a similar specialist role to that of artillery, that is exactly the point, imo. Simply extending the front line doesnt really solve anything, there still wouldnt be any real insentive to using cav over much cheaper and not much worse infantry. Having dedicated flanking spots exclusively for cav is really the only way to make cav relevant in the current meta. That and also Arumba's idea of having cav move inwards as the enemy's lines shrink, so that the cav always uses its flanking range.
 

Unit745

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While I would hardly call myself an EU4 expert, and I have never played a competitive multiplayer game of EU4, I still think these ideas, while well-intentioned, still leave much to be desired. Let's take that separate combat width and flanking range idea.

Let's say we have a combat width of 10 and flanking range of 2.

My understanding from this discussion is, under the current meta, once nations can afford to fill out their front lines, you will end up simply with 10 units of infantry because this is the most cost-effective strategy (cavalry essentially lose their flanking bonus, and the extra damage cavalry will do is not worth the cost). So what happens under the new system? Once nations can afford to fill out their front lines, you will end up with 10 infantry and 4 cavalry (2 on each flank).

What exactly has changed here? Sure, cavalry are being used now, which is nice, but the reason they are being used is the same reason you fill out your armies to maximum combat width - to not do so gives your enemy an undue advantage with flanking. You are basically just telling the players the following: Your combat width is 10 with infantry, 14 if you add a few cavalry. There is still no strategy here. Everyone will still run the same army composition.



What if you instead had a different system, something like thus:

Use the current system of combat width and flanking range. However, for each unit of cavalry (adjusted for casualties, of course) you have above the enemy, you receive some benefits. Some possible ideas:

1, Flat combat bonuses to the entire army.
2, Bonus pips to maneuver, possibly allowing effective maneuver to exceed 6, or possibly allowing an army without a general to negate a river crossing penalty.
3, A new mechanic called 'Initiative.' Each unit of cavalry you have over the enemy, possibly modified by leader maneuver, adds to your initiative. Initiative might do any number of things for you, some examples: chance of doing double damage on a combat round; +x to the dice roll; etc.

The advantage of my idea is that it creates some sense of meaningful choice for the player. Cavalry is expensive, so running around with armies comprised of maximum cavalry is generally not the best idea. However, if you need to break a well-entrenched enemy army, then a high-cavalry army might give you the buffs you need to win: a high effective maneuver means you negate that pesky river crossing, even though the enemy has a 6-maneuver general; the flat combat bonuses and/or initiative mechanic gives you the combat edge you need to overcome the terrain penalty.

The argument of 'well, everyone will run around with maximum cavalry, then!' is probably not going to be the case. Cavalry is already better than infantry in combat ability, but you don't see everyone running around with cavalry doom stacks. Rather, the player now has a strategic decision to make. Do I forgo cavalry in this army to save costs, but leave it vulnerable to an 'easy initiative bonus' if the enemy army brings a few cavalry? How many cavalry-centric armies will I make, and how will I position them?

This is a strategy game, and if you can make a decision more strategic rather than 'everyone does it because this is the most efficient way to play,' then that is a win in my opinion.


EDIT:

After some more thinking, I think there is some merit to having the effective maneuver of an army be simply the product,

[Army maneuver] = [# of cavalry (adjusted for casualties)] * [general maneuver].

Since maneuver is only compared to negate crossing penalties, fractional effective maneuver is okay. I think this makes some sense, and locks you out of maneuver if you do not use cavalry. Further, while having a 5 or 6 maneuver general, combined with even just a few units of cavalry, would essentially make the crossing penalty insurmountable if your enemy has a low-maneuver general, I think this is okay. The crossing penalty is not an end-all penalty, and the opposing army can overcome it by bringing a general with an extra shock and fire pip. This would also allow a player to manage his RNG to an extent, substituting extra cavalry in lieu of a high-maneuver general if high maneuver is necessary (e.g., for a naval invasion).
 
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