East Slavonic tribes in TOG

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Okay, guise, based on what we have seen so far, am I correct in assuming that not one Slavic tribe in the East is going to be represented as a separate tag? Instead there's gonna be the same "counties" of 1066 such as as Tver, Bryansk (cities, which were actually established ~200 years later) etc that are "vassalized" by "Holmgardr" and "Konugardr" (wtf?)? Needless to say, this is a disappointment of epic proportions. And it doesn't have the remotest connection with actual history at the date.

Also, it's a minor thing, but it seems Pskov on your map is of Finnic culture. This isn't correct, of course, the entire are with Izborsk and Pskov was Krivichian.

Again, it seems you don't have separate graphics for Slavic cities and they use the Norse ones? That's, well, not cool.

In the livestream session it has been mentioned, that East Slavic tribes borders and rulers are basically unknown. This is not so, by any means. Their borders are perfectly established, both by sources (Primary Chronicle) and by archeology. This map has been posted numerous times already.

As for the who ruled them, we do have legendary figures, no less legendary than Askold, Dir, Harald, Ragnar or Rurik. And ceratinly more credible than "Dyre the Stranger".

Those are:

Radim of the Radimichi
Viacheslav "Viatko" of the Viatichi
Gostomysl of The Slovene

As for the inaccuracies of the map: basically, it's all is nicely summed up here.

The same story with Polabians aka Wends. They are just Brandenburg, Mecklenburg and Pomerania (with Pomerelia where Pomerania should be) instead of the actual historical Obodrites, Veletians, Lusatians and Pomeranians, whose borders and leaders are incredibly well-documented. Their history and wars with the Saxon, Danes and between each other are really interesting. With the exclusion of them, the region is so less fun.

But perhaps it's too early to judge and you'll fix that. In that case, it's all cool.

 

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Oh don't get me started. Let's just say there is even no mention of christianization of Rus' (first attempt) that occured just few years before game start.

 

[Darkgamma]

Konugardr = Kænugarðr = Kiev
Holmgardr = Hólmgarðr = Velikij Novgorod

You still find the terms in use in Icelandic.
Rurik/Hrörekr is pretty much an established person and it's very much unlikely that he didn't exist
With that I fly off

 

[Olaus Petrus]

Rurik's Novgorod and Askold and Dir's Kiev are already in the Old Gods map and they should be there. But when it comes to cultures of Northern Russia both Ilmen Slavs and Krivichs settled into Finnic areas and it's difficult to say when they became majority population. We know that both languages existed in the same areas for a long time and Primary Chronicle indicates that Northern Russia was multicultural around the time of Rurik.

Oh don't get me started. Let's just say there is even no mention of christianization of Rus' (first attempt) that occured just few years before game start.

And it failed without leaving major impact. There's game mechanic in Old Gods for such attempts.

 

[Ithron]

Galindians also still existed. Though, its difficult to assess, where they still independent in 867 or no longer.

 

[theKing1988]

I actually like that they don't add countless of tribal cultures that would not comprise of more than 1-4 provinces.

 

[unmerged(606777)]

Yeah, Kiev was named Konugardr in some sagas. But why is it used as its official designation? (The answer is because PDS is Swedish, of course, but let's pretend we're all objective here). For sure the locals didn't call it that. And surely, the Kiev of Askold and Dir's times didn't spread their influence in the whole Dniepr basin, but was limited to Kiev and it's immediate surroundings along the Dniepr. The Slavic tribes of Dniepr basing were completely "vassalized" in late-10th century by Vladimir.

I actually like that they don't add countless of tribal cultures that would not comprise of more than 1-4 provinces.

That's exactly what Central and Eastern Europe was at the time. Why should this be rendered differently than it actually was? This is a historic staretegy after all, not some arcade, so why invent non-existant stuff. In EU:Rome there were plenty of 1-2 provinced tribes after all. The lack of sources (which isn't exactly the case) has been cited as the reason for such a setup and not the gameplay reasons, by the way.

 

[Olaus Petrus]

Yeah, Kiev was named Konugardr in some sagas. But why is it used as its official designation? (The answer is because PDS is Swedish, of course, but let's pretend we're all objective here). For sure the locals didn't call it that. And surely, the Kiev of Askold and Dir's times didn't spread their influence in the whole Dniepr basin, but was limited to Kiev and it's immediate surroundings along the Dniepr. The Slavic tribes of Dniepr basing were completely "vassalized" in late-10th century by Vladimir.




That's exactly what Central and Eastern Europe was at the time. Why should this be rendered differently than it actually was? This is a historic staretegy after all, not some arcade, so why invent non-existant stuff. In EU:Rome there were plenty of 1-2 provinced tribes after all. The lack of sources (which isn't exactly the case) has been cited as the reason for such a setup and not the gameplay reasons, by the way.

I assume it has something to do with rulers being of Norse culture. I assume that once they become Russian the duchy changes it's name to Kiev. If you haven't noticed in recent patches many titles change their name according to culture.

 

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...If you haven't noticed in recent patches many titles change their name according to culture.

So, theoretically, the Kalmar Union changes its name to "Kalmarska Unia" when Boguslav of Pomerania is in charge?

 

[Jeltz]

So, theoretically, the Kalmar Union changes its name to "Kalmarska Unia" when Boguslav of Pomerania is in charge?

Yes, it would. I personally think the cultural renaming system based on the top liege causes quite many weird situations. But I am unsure how it should be fixed.

 

[Olaus Petrus]

So, theoretically, the Kalmar Union changes its name to "Kalmarska Unia" when Boguslav of Pomerania is in charge?

There's no Kalmar Union tag, but theoretically it could be possible if Paradox had included that name into game files. Current set up for Duchy of Novgorod looks like this:

d_novgorod = {
color={ 107 164 64 }
color2={ 255 255 255 }

capital = 414 # Novgorod

swedish = "Holmgård"
danish = "Holmgård"
norwegian = "Holmgård"

So if it ruled by a Scandinavian it will use the alternative name, otherwise it's called Novgorod. There's similar text also for county and barony of Novgorord. Another example of this new cultural naming thing is that for example in Sicily there are alternative Arabic and Greek names for the provinces and cities.

 

[Kraxis]

So, theoretically, the Kalmar Union changes its name to "Kalmarska Unia" when Boguslav of Pomerania is in charge?

If the Kalmar Union existed in the game then it would be a possibility (not everything changes names mind you, it is a bit silly to expect an Arabic name for something like Denmark etc), however in his specific case chances are that he would have adopted the Danish culture by the time he became king given that he was being tutored by Margaret queen of Denmark.

 

[Red_warning]

I assume Dragovit would be pleased if there was such a thing as a russification event of the norse lords similar to the English events that happen if the Normans win.

 

[Kraxis]

I assume Dragovit would be pleased if there was such a thing as a russification event of the norse lords similar to the English events that happen if the Normans win.

I believe they have mentioned something along those lines. Though I would expect the player to have a say in it.

 

[theKing1988]

Yeah, Kiev was named Konugardr in some sagas. But why is it used as its official designation? (The answer is because PDS is Swedish, of course, but let's pretend we're all objective here). For sure the locals didn't call it that. And surely, the Kiev of Askold and Dir's times didn't spread their influence in the whole Dniepr basin, but was limited to Kiev and it's immediate surroundings along the Dniepr. The Slavic tribes of Dniepr basing were completely "vassalized" in late-10th century by Vladimir.




That's exactly what Central and Eastern Europe was at the time. Why should this be rendered differently than it actually was? This is a historic staretegy after all, not some arcade, so why invent non-existant stuff. In EU:Rome there were plenty of 1-2 provinced tribes after all. The lack of sources (which isn't exactly the case) has been cited as the reason for such a setup and not the gameplay reasons, by the way.

I'm well aware that was the situation. But gameplay reasons, lack of sources and the simply fact that adding as much content as possible is not always possible if you want the game to run properly does require Paradox to simplify a lot of things and i actually think they've done pretty great so far.

 

[Carmilla]

If the Kalmar Union existed in the game then it would be a possibility (not everything changes names mind you, it is a bit silly to expect an Arabic name for something like Denmark etc), however in his specific case chances are that he would have adopted the Danish culture by the time he became king given that he was being tutored by Margaret queen of Denmark.

Isn't the empire tier title "Scandinavia" supposed to serve as the kalmar union?

 

[Kraxis]

In function perhaps, but the Union was really three kingdoms under one king. There wasn't a superior title. In effect it was the Danish king holding all three crowns, much like if you play as one kingdom and then conquer two more kingdoms.
The nobles of all three kingdoms had plenty of say in who should be king in the Union, so it was a collection of three Feudal Elective kingdoms. However, in practice the Danish and Swedish nobles decided the matter and the Norwegian nobles followed suit because they knew they couldn't hold out against the others in a war (which would ensue). That isn't to say that there weren't a number of internal wars, nor was the Union solid with several periods of non-Union.

For a long time it was a Union of practicality, and in reality it weakened the king in comparison to the nobles. It was only towards the end that the king managed to built up more power and that then resulted in Sweden giving the middle finger and breaking off.

Had the nobles not been so powerful, and the Union been one of marriage or conquest, then I would say that Scandinavian Empire would fit quite well. In fact it isn't entirely unreasonable that a strong king with weak nobles could have proclaimed himself emperor in the same way the Spanish did.

 

[unmerged(606777)]

Aight, some of the tribes are there! A huge thank you, Paradox!

Nevertheless, there's still a lot of room for historic and geographic improvement. Here are some points that along the lines of which you, dear Paradox, may go, should you have the desire and time to do some fixing and tweaking.

I'll just copy my posts from elsewhere, so they can all be in the appropriate topic.

 

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"Okay, after thoroughly examining the new map on the video, the following can be noted:

1) Our beloved devs have added the following East Slavic tribe: Viatichi, Krivichi, Radimichi, Dregovichi and Severians. Drevlians, Polanians, Slovene, Volynians, Ulichi and Tiverians were not added. So we still only have less than the half of the actual tribes that existed. Oh well, still that's something. Good work, PDS!

2) Some nice changes were made in the Pomeranian region. Some nice province renaming have taken place also (can't comment on the accuracy here, though). "Sorbs" appeared (which better be renamed "Lusatians" for moar historic accuracy) and unhistorical "Pomeralia" dissapeared. There seems to be 2 other Slavic groups there, but it wasn't clear from the video which were those. Apparently, those must represent the big tribal confederations of Obodrites and Veletians. One of them, the Veletians, is vassalized by East Franks, which is historically correct, with one exception: the island of Rugen was a part of the Obodrites, the other non-vassalized tribe, hostile to Veletians and allied with the Franks, so it shouldn't be Frankish.

3) The Kingdom of Croatia of the previous screenshots is now correctly two duchies - Slavonia and Croatia. There's also the Serbian duchy of Rashka, which should be correctly spelled "Rascia". Also there's the Duchy of "Balaton", which should be renamed "Blatnograd", since "Balaton" is the Hungarian rendering of Slavic word "Blatno", and since there were no Hungarians there yet, neither should this name be present.

4) The wtf duchy of "Bereg" is now renamed "Chorbatia". It's supposed to represent the carpathian White Croatia. Overall - me approves.

All-in-all - pretty good work, lads. Thank you!"

 

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"The question still stands - why the Madyars (and it may be surprising for an English speaker to know that the word "Magyars" is correctly pronounced as Mad'-YARS, see whatever dictionary you trust) have such massive territory in the Ukraine?

During the video Hungary quickly and successfully formed in the Pannonian basin and a huge deal of it remained in the Ukraine during all the time of the game we saw on the video. This is not historical or gameplay-neccessary. Historically the Hungarians just moved through steppe grasslands of the Black sea shore along the West Dabubian bank through Wallachia into Pannonia.
(Also on the livestream video the Avars were spotted on the cultural map in lower Danube, which of course is extremely unprobable and Wallachians with Bulgarians are more likely to dwell there).

The Madyars certainly didn't hold the heavily forested regions of Galich and Pereiaslavl', as it shown on the current map. And they certainly didn't move over the Carpathian mountains with all their horses and stuff, that's next to impossible. (The Carpathians must be made impassable just like the Alps, btw. The only good way directly through the mountains should be in what is modern Slovakia.)

Imo, Hungarians must hold the provinces of Olvia, Oleshye, Lower Dniepr, Lukomorie and maybe Korsun'. They should be equipped with a solid stack of doom to be able to get Pannonia.

The provinces of Pereiaslavl, Galich and Terebovl' shouldn't be Magyars. Pereiaslavl must be given to Severians. The provinces of Torki and Belgorod should belong to the Slavic tribes of Tiverians, which currently are not in the game. The provinces of Peresechen' and Olvia should belong to the Ulichi tribe, which is not in the game either. Galich and Terebovl' - to Volynians, that, again, are not in the game."