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because with 4 airbases, that's 6 x let's just say 100 days. so 600 days to build an airbase up to max 10, that's why I hate it. to put airbases in more than one province means less IC you have for production. so if I need airbases built in 12 different spots, that's 12 IC compared to 3 and using gearing bonus. Naval bases and shit take so long to build and are very expensive, I think this makes them even more useless. Only time I EVER build a naval base is for range, and to give japan a forward base. AA I don't use, as I prefer ftrs. Makes it almost impossible to win russia vs germany, as Ger can barely use any CAS at all. Maybe we can play with a build que limit, as I feel that would more correctly fit this game and its mechanics.
I already feel planes are not able to get in the sky as fast as they would in real life, I don't want this slowed more. I think the amount of time planes must stay out of the sky should depend very little on organization and a shitlolad on STR.
I already feel planes are not able to get in the sky as fast as they would in real life, I don't want this slowed more. I think the amount of time planes must stay out of the sky should depend very little on organization and a shitlolad on STR.
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Yes but what you can do now, is this:
Org up your air in a large base within a short distance of the front. Now, keeping a base in hand, you put a base right at the front. Just one base is all it takes. Move all your air there. Because it is a short hop you get almost zero org loss. Now fly. Then, as the front moves forward drop a new base in, again at the front. And so on and so on. Mass air specialists take advantage of this all the time, making sure their entire airforce, even interceptors is within range of the front all the time.
Its not a big TC drain to keep 10 bases in hand, since only the first counts against your TC, so you can basicly do this forever, only occassionally shipping damaged units to the rear.
Trust me, I am an offender, I am always building a serial of insanely cheap airbases, and as Japan, Naval bases too sometimes.
Org up your air in a large base within a short distance of the front. Now, keeping a base in hand, you put a base right at the front. Just one base is all it takes. Move all your air there. Because it is a short hop you get almost zero org loss. Now fly. Then, as the front moves forward drop a new base in, again at the front. And so on and so on. Mass air specialists take advantage of this all the time, making sure their entire airforce, even interceptors is within range of the front all the time.
Its not a big TC drain to keep 10 bases in hand, since only the first counts against your TC, so you can basicly do this forever, only occassionally shipping damaged units to the rear.
Trust me, I am an offender, I am always building a serial of insanely cheap airbases, and as Japan, Naval bases too sometimes.
make the rule you cannot keep airbases in the deployment que, that seems simple enough, this keeps people from capturing a province and building on it the same day.
Well right, but its just as simple to make people build them in the province, since this can actually be seen by the other players, since airbases take a certain amount of time to construct. This other way, a player can simply say, "oh... it just came out, now." And, in the case of building a large airport, the effect is the same if you do not allow people to have bases in their Deployment Queue since, they can no longer "suddenly" construct a level 10 airbase, but must wait for them to come out in serial, or have 10 being built all the time, which no one does of course.
Naval bases I see your point, but for airbases at least I think its a good option.
Naval bases I see your point, but for airbases at least I think its a good option.
it doesn't take 3 years to build 10 airbases. Armies don't launch planes from public airports. I would think what would be construed as 10 airbases for them would not fall anywhere near under the same category as a public airport. 10 airbases isn't even that great of a pickup from 6-10. it just means more planes you are able to repair at once, which would just be more hangars and runways....I don't see this stuff taking three years, and I also like having my 10 airbases, as I like to play a game, not simulate real life. and this is one of the many numerous things you can do to get advantages. I have to wonder if airbases are even worth building like this compared to the total time you will be putting IC into them..almost 100 percent sure it would be better to build 0 airbases, and use your ic to produce and reinforce. Yes I do not agree with building airbases as you take territory, but sometimes man you have to, or that base will be a waste, as they can log bomb you to 0, then that province is useless the rest of the game since no airbase will ever charge there.
a.d.a.m said:
On point. I think actually its very good to build up your forward Naval bases and air and infrastrucure on Truk and in the Marshalls. These bases are in pretty much constant use when at war with USA, and not only repair and refit faster, but also save a huge amount of supply. It's the kind of edge that Japan needs in that war, imo.
well we are not talking about infrastructure, that's something that has to be province built and fits nicely into the flow of the game building them slowly. BUT it would not be worth the IC spent into it if you cannot have 10 airbases there. 10 airbases cannot even be built from 1936 to 1939 war. UK would be so badly in trouble, especially with your increased costs for air since they will have less all around anyway. UK is going to have to be able to mold from different area to different area using bases. The mechanics of this game will make it impossible for UK to ever defend ITA and Ger as UK must maintain static defenses of air, and Axis can 'hide' all their aircraft in one location, and seize control of the skies in a day, then keep control as they can airbase strike you to 0 and log bomb the infra you have around there. then you cannot rebase, you don't have 10 airbases to buy you airstrike time. it just takes the most powerful element of the game away by a lot.Cueball said:
A lot? I think it nerfs slightly a part of the game that is unrealistically overpowered. Especially since all players would be hampered in the same way. Sure UK can not build a huge number of bases to accomodate the Battle of Britain, but by the same token, the coast of France does not get covered with German airbases overnight.
Armies do launch planes from public airports. Not that this is relevant in the period we are talking about.
We are talking wings of aircraft not squadrons. Each unit represents possibly as many as 200 aircraft. To me building an air complex that can comfortably rotate 2000 aircraft on round the clock missions would probably take at least three years. This is a schedule similar to that of a major international airport.
And in anycase, its not at all necessary to have a full capacity 10 size airbase to run missions effectively.
a.d.a.m said:
Armies do launch planes from public airports. Not that this is relevant in the period we are talking about.
We are talking wings of aircraft not squadrons. Each unit represents possibly as many as 200 aircraft. To me building an air complex that can comfortably rotate 2000 aircraft on round the clock missions would probably take at least three years. This is a schedule similar to that of a major international airport.
And in anycase, its not at all necessary to have a full capacity 10 size airbase to run missions effectively.
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this fits under our gibraltor argument I would think, and I would be willing to play that out anytime with you, with me as UK and you as Ger. if an airbase size is 4 it is completely gone in a single day with 8 tacs. UK will not be able to defend from UK home isles, gibraltor, malta, and alexandria. Nor will they have airbases to help cover subs in turkey straights. Germany and Italy have many airbases already there, and UK has none. it's not fair. even if I was germany, I would not want this rule as it gives you huge advantages over UK.
airbase building up by 1 would benefit USA the most in the pacific further gimping the japanese, as USA has more IC to build multiple bases for long periods, not to mention less islands in the area, making 10 airbases even more effective, and the IC to build many more ftrs, plus whatever UK can send to help them. Japanese strike is all about how early they can invade USA...unless you are able to take pearl harbor itself an invasion of USA will not be possible for at the very least the time it takes to build a naval base somewhere in hawaii, which is far far too long when in reality germany had submarines as far as mexico coasts vs USA prior to the war to prove they could reach mainland USA. just to think of one example of navy with longer range in real life. not to mention USA could just stick ftrs in pearl and cover only islands with starting airbases...then bomb the living shit out of anything japanese that came into the area....It is my strong opinion this game was not meant to be played by multiplayers and use this rule considering how fast the war with russia and germany is over. look I almost didn't get to play in saturday game because germany almost got defeated. luckily he pulled through, but that was just that time, could have been different with another player. or even soviets losing then allies quitting because they cannot win.
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I would neve build airbases anywhere other than Hawaii and Wake where they already are. You are just making stuff for the Japanese, otherwise. Nothing could be sillier than making an airbase on Midway Island, as it give Japan ready air access to the naval area around Pearl.
This works both ways. This way it takes USA at least 3 months to get a base operational on Bonin Island.
I don't see how putting 10 airbases in a province solves the probem of logistical strike and airbase strikes, since the bases start at zero, and if there is an active campaign against an airbase, at zero, it is going to stay at zero, even if you add 6 more bases to make it 10.
You are making this into something way bigger than it is.
This works both ways. This way it takes USA at least 3 months to get a base operational on Bonin Island.
I don't see how putting 10 airbases in a province solves the probem of logistical strike and airbase strikes, since the bases start at zero, and if there is an active campaign against an airbase, at zero, it is going to stay at zero, even if you add 6 more bases to make it 10.
You are making this into something way bigger than it is.
this is the middle of the game also, I already have airbase serials running, and have been deploying the airbases like I will have serials all game, it's too late to change for this game and be agreeable, also I don't want to play in campaigns with this rule, so just please wait until next campaign you start as we have already started this once with different things the last minute and I had to spend another 6 hours coming up with a relevant build scheme for this mod. and adding an extra 15 ic to airbases, changes things a lot.
on another note you also must consider that I am a player that enjoys this as a game and not as a simulation, I absolutely love it when USA tries for something like completely garrisoning the phillipines. this stuff adds random challenge to the game and I like that as very very few players are good enough to pull off daring stunts like this so close to japanese mainland with no airbases. It's a lot funner than when I asked pred how he will attack soviets and he answered.."through smolensk to moscow." I said, "that's exactly where he expects you to go dude"...."Yea I am a dull player," he finished.
on another note you also must consider that I am a player that enjoys this as a game and not as a simulation, I absolutely love it when USA tries for something like completely garrisoning the phillipines. this stuff adds random challenge to the game and I like that as very very few players are good enough to pull off daring stunts like this so close to japanese mainland with no airbases. It's a lot funner than when I asked pred how he will attack soviets and he answered.."through smolensk to moscow." I said, "that's exactly where he expects you to go dude"...."Yea I am a dull player," he finished.
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As I said, its just an idea.
Yeah garrisoning Phillipines (alright!) Mass air and airbases in hand (annoying.)
Yeah garrisoning Phillipines (alright!) Mass air and airbases in hand (annoying.)
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how about for this game, there is no increasing an airbase, past 1 level every month. That's nice an countable and still allows for multiple airbases to be built and deployed as needed.Cueball said:
Not really an issue for me. I just came up with it because of a discussion that was being had over at Lord Ederon's forum. Not a big deal either way. I thought it would be neat to try and get people to think about their base set up in advance, and limit some of the exploits at the same time.
I also usually have a serial or two, of airbases in the line, its cheap when the gearing gets going and the techs drop the time it takes.
I also usually have a serial or two, of airbases in the line, its cheap when the gearing gets going and the techs drop the time it takes.
Cueball said:
what's so irrational about building airbases in the que and deploying them 1 per province per month. this simulates to me that you were planning to build forward airbases, so were already prepared with the equipment and things necessary to build it. then you could deploy it and it would then take 2-3 weeks
to get to a full airbase, and if it was in freshly captured territory it would take even longer as the infra is very low, which makes sense also. unless there were airbases already built on the province, which again makes more sense that it would charge up fast.
There is nothing irrational about what you are saying. Its a good idea. I said, it wasnt a big deal for me. Just an idea I had, I would hardly call it a game breaker one way or the other. It's a small thing really.
The main thing is that if building an airbase must happen from the province menu, it is much easier to supervise, since there will be no excuses if bases start appearing suddenly at the front and such. On the other hand, saying that you can add one base every month, though a good idea, is a little bit harder to supervise. Also, I am not even sure I would remeber if I landed a base on a province "within the last month" or not, and might easily do it by accident.
Its also a little easier to do, in terms of mechanics for the player, no remembering required, just set the serial up in Riga or whatever, and then stop it when you have enough.
So, I think either a clearly supervisable limit is prefereable to one that has more grey zones in it. In the latter case, just to avoid disputes better just to keep it that way it is wihtout a limit.
The main thing is that if building an airbase must happen from the province menu, it is much easier to supervise, since there will be no excuses if bases start appearing suddenly at the front and such. On the other hand, saying that you can add one base every month, though a good idea, is a little bit harder to supervise. Also, I am not even sure I would remeber if I landed a base on a province "within the last month" or not, and might easily do it by accident.
Its also a little easier to do, in terms of mechanics for the player, no remembering required, just set the serial up in Riga or whatever, and then stop it when you have enough.
So, I think either a clearly supervisable limit is prefereable to one that has more grey zones in it. In the latter case, just to avoid disputes better just to keep it that way it is wihtout a limit.
Can this be hardcoded, as in the ability to build them in the que is disabled? That is the only way i'd want to see it implemented.
Can they be tied to infrustructure level in the province? I played TRP recently and there where places even in Japan I had to improve the infrustructure before I could up the industry of said province... I think that needs to be explored more, a certain/higher infrustructure level in a province before industroy/naval bases/airfields (and maybe other things?) can be built.
So if someone wants to dump 5 airfields at once, they are gonna have to make sure the infrustructure is at a respectable level to allow for the speedy construction (i.e. que droping them all at once) of said fields.
A chage i'd like to see far far more is some way to hard code the amont of planes can be stationed at an airbase.
Can they be tied to infrustructure level in the province? I played TRP recently and there where places even in Japan I had to improve the infrustructure before I could up the industry of said province... I think that needs to be explored more, a certain/higher infrustructure level in a province before industroy/naval bases/airfields (and maybe other things?) can be built.
So if someone wants to dump 5 airfields at once, they are gonna have to make sure the infrustructure is at a respectable level to allow for the speedy construction (i.e. que droping them all at once) of said fields.
A chage i'd like to see far far more is some way to hard code the amont of planes can be stationed at an airbase.
Mod for this game is in green in my signature, and is based on Armageddon 1.1. Installation instructions are in the OP.
Yes some minors are available for this game. Also, we have Saturday game too, but that is still with the earlier version of the mod, and quite a bit further along than this game. This game is in February 1938, so there is still plenty of time to make your stamp.
Regular meeting time is 0:00 CET, which is 6:00 pm EST on Wednesday, though we may meet earlier by arrangement. The sessions are minimum 4 hours.
NOTE: That hosting service has been a little wonky lately, so if you have problems contact me through MSN, or Yahoo, and I will send it you.
Yes some minors are available for this game. Also, we have Saturday game too, but that is still with the earlier version of the mod, and quite a bit further along than this game. This game is in February 1938, so there is still plenty of time to make your stamp.
Regular meeting time is 0:00 CET, which is 6:00 pm EST on Wednesday, though we may meet earlier by arrangement. The sessions are minimum 4 hours.
NOTE: That hosting service has been a little wonky lately, so if you have problems contact me through MSN, or Yahoo, and I will send it you.
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