• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

unmerged(74599)

Nexus 6
Apr 17, 2007
4.391
0
I'll be starting a new Mod thread of suggestions on this version tomorrow.

Please post any required edits... here is the save for the game: EIR Weekdays2 End session save
 

a.d.a.m

Major
4 Badges
Jul 19, 2006
625
0
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
-2 dissent and sinclair changed to IC+5% minister in case the swap happens.


portugal will ally me. is this allowed at danzig or did it somehow change from nuetral again?
 
Last edited:

a.d.a.m

Major
4 Badges
Jul 19, 2006
625
0
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
well I must say after play testing with UK and seeing how long upgrades are taking, I'd pretty much say this is a huge game changer for germany as their upgrades must take years because mine takes months instead of weeks :p
 

unmerged(74599)

Nexus 6
Apr 17, 2007
4.391
0
Oh yes. Makes the balance issue a mystery. So much of Allies build is dependent on those fast upgrades. Damages UK and Allies in the early war, more than it does the Axis. Though, I also took out the big dissent reductions for Germany in the pre-war years (now -3 dissent instead of -10) so, Germany can not super-heat the economy by riding dissent.

I'd say it hurts Russia and France most, followed by Japan. Japan needs to update its army immediatly for China, and Russia and France have large but dated armies. Germany/Austria only go through one tier of upgrades, prior to war, France two, and Russia three.

More emphasis on building later, but also gearing in the long run, IMO. super-push infantry techs?
 
Last edited:

a.d.a.m

Major
4 Badges
Jul 19, 2006
625
0
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
Germany can not super-heat the economy by riding dissent.


lol dude, you have hung out with the spartans for way too long :p.


and about japan, I think since you did this with upgrades you are going to have to add them more starting base IC in 1936, but we will see. and pretty much the way I am thinking, if germans haven't about won the game in 1942, they will never win as it will take a year and a half to upgrade 150-200 infantry to 1943. Much less the 1941 upgrades, but I think they can pull that one off. USSR never has to do a single upgrade, they can just disband and rebuild newer infantry with maxed out manpower and baddddddddd ass gearing. probably going to end up being about 2x cheaper.
 
Last edited:

a.d.a.m

Major
4 Badges
Jul 19, 2006
625
0
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
if russia disbands their army....i think a war with poland should be edited in!!!

well that is a different touchy subject that is up to the players playing. It is by far better to delete the soviet starting army in vanilla, but is considered unfair to the german player as Soviets can run 0 supplies until they start building an army.

I was talking about keep building divisions until your manpower is at 0, then instead of upgrading older divisions, delete just enough to build another run of newer infantry, and so on never doing an upgrade, just keep building a serial of 99 troops with 50 gearing bonus, full hawk, and small arms assembly. it would be way way faster in this mod than upgrading with full central planning and full drafted army, and if upgrading does turn out to be slightly cheaper then this way is still probably more efficient :p.
 

unmerged(74599)

Nexus 6
Apr 17, 2007
4.391
0
They can't because Japan will walk all over them in early 39 after Khalkin Ghol. Furthermore, a number of people have done calculations and tests on deleting the Soviet army in vanilla, and found it does nothing to help SU, and may even hurt it. But this is no doubt partly a result of the upgrade time and cost being so low.

a.d.a.m said:
lol dude, you have hung out with the spartans for way too long :p.

I am not so opposed to super-heating the German economy in 38-39, as I normally am about other exploits. Afterall the Nazi did push the German economy and played a game of carrot and stick, Hitler providing a series of foreign policy coups, which were popular, in the face of other moves at home which were controversial, which should actually give Germany dissent. Furthermore, the turmoil of 1933-36, (streetfighting between KPD and NSDAP, Reichstag Fire, the "enabling act", the Night of the Long Knives etc.) are not in the timescale of the game, and should really give Germany dissent at the begining of the game. That said, I'd rather do without the whole thing since its something that some people do, some people don't and something that some people simply don't know how to do. This way it is a level playing field for all.

a.d.a.m said:
and about japan, I think since you did this with upgrades you are going to have to add them more starting base IC in 1936, but we will see. and pretty much the way I am thinking, if germans haven't about won the game in 1942, they will never win as it will take a year and a half to upgrade 150-200 infantry to 1943. Much less the 1941 upgrades, but I think they can pull that one off. USSR never has to do a single upgrade, they can just disband and rebuild newer infantry with maxed out manpower and baddddddddd ass gearing. probably going to end up being about 2x cheaper.

The lousy conscript army will suffer substantially against Germany's Full Professional army. And, this upgrade scheme is more realistic anyway.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(74599)

Nexus 6
Apr 17, 2007
4.391
0
Discussion of the mod in general should go here: East is Red 1.07

We should keep this thread for the game itself, arguements, edits and so forth.
 

a.d.a.m

Major
4 Badges
Jul 19, 2006
625
0
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
a number of people have done calculations and tests on deleting the Soviet army in vanilla, and found it does nothing to help SU, and may even hurt it

I dunno what they are smoking, but I want some of that shit...soviets can easily build about 20-30 extra IC while running 0 supplies for 3 years...30 is probably a bit much but 20 is to low. and if you build IC until 1940 then 30 might be about right. that's a lot more ic to work with for a lot longer. hell I only build 4 runs of IC and it still nets me at 500 useable IC as soon as I annex lat, lith, and estonia. this leaves plenty of time to put massive IC into tanks and an airforce, and about 24-32 serials of inf. when you get to beginning of 1941 you can cancel the planes and tanks, and start putting out 50-70 infantry every 2 months, and then down to every month once your gearings get going. there is absolutely no way I could ever achieve that much power if I kept and upgraded all those shitty 1918 divs and supplied them for 5 years.
 

unmerged(64512)

Nuked man
Jan 14, 2007
1.039
0
you seems to forgive that germany can attack soviet union in 1940, as germany I won't say my choice until 24 august 1939....
If you delete most of the 136 starting units you have you don't have chance to defend in a barb 40.....
 

unmerged(74599)

Nexus 6
Apr 17, 2007
4.391
0
a.d.a.m said:
I dunno what they are smoking, but I want some of that shit...soviets can easily build about 20-30 extra IC while running 0 supplies for 3 years...30 is probably a bit much but 20 is to low. and if you build IC until 1940 then 30 might be about right. that's a lot more ic to work with for a lot longer. hell I only build 4 runs of IC and it still nets me at 500 useable IC as soon as I annex lat, lith, and estonia. this leaves plenty of time to put massive IC into tanks and an airforce, and about 24-32 serials of inf. when you get to beginning of 1941 you can cancel the planes and tanks, and start putting out 50-70 infantry every 2 months, and then down to every month once your gearings get going. there is absolutely no way I could ever achieve that much power if I kept and upgraded all those shitty 1918 divs and supplied them for 5 years.

Well, for one thing, most people stack their army in Moscow, at 70% infrastructure as opposed to Leningrad at 80% infrastructure, and aslo fail to build infrastructure in the province where they are storing their army. Both things effect supply efficiency substantially.

In anycase, a number of people have made the calculation that unit deletion is of little help one way or the other. That said this might not be the case with increased upgrade costs, but as Hiensen just pointed out a 1940 attack by Germany impacts this scenario, and also, in the case of the mod, early war with Japan also impact the calculation.
 

jackda

AUGUST STORM Developer
25 Badges
Jun 7, 2006
3.189
298
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland


This map shows that SU (EVEN while not at war , in 1940) has always outproduced Germnany in the main domains of war production : tanks and planes
This one and many others proves that the SU's IC in vanilla DDA match totaly with reality ....
So , for a matter of reality , i think it's not a good idea IMO to reduce the IC.
Maybe the troops quality instead .
 
Last edited:

unmerged(74599)

Nexus 6
Apr 17, 2007
4.391
0
All in all, when it comes down to it, one is not just interested in the effectiveness of the functioning of an economy in terms of what it does produce, not just raw numbers. One must remember that industrial capacity in this game is a gross oversimplification designed to symbolize numerous factors, not represent actual raw production, if it were it would be necessary to give the USA 1200 IC base. We do not because the USA never maxed out its economy to fight the war.

The reality of the Soviet economy of the pre-war years, is that the purge of officer of the Red Army, was merely the tip of the iceberg called "the great purge", and that the summary deportation of large populations of people considered hostile to the Soviet regime, combined with the liquidation of much of the most talented and committed members of the Communist Partyleadership, not to mention technicians, bureaucrats and other "professionals," combined to shatter what was left of a more or less already broken economy, and that it was only toward the years 1938-39, that any real normalcy was returned to the administration of the country.

Lets remember that Tukhachevsky was purged for "wrecking," and that this charge was brought chiefly by Buddeny and Voroshilov who argued that his concepts of mechanized war were an overt attempt to subvert the Red Army, because of course they believed that cavalry was a superior means of prosecuting mobile war, since horses don't used oil and can forage for supply. So, I ask you, how do you represent the fact that some of the USSR' awesome steel production was being diverted from the production of tanks and into the production of horse shoes and stirrups for Buddeny's beloved "Red" Cavalry?

This is just one example of the waste, and narrow minded thinking that hobbled the Soviet Unions industrial potentia. There are others. Suffice to say there was a lot of waste, and over-production of obsolete equipment as well as just bad management by a bureaucracy that lived in fear of new ideas, or any kind of initiative that might result in sudden deportation to Siberia.

What your figures, dating from 1940, show is the potential of the Soviet Economy that I agree was very large indeed. What they do no reflect is the slow recuperation of the Soviet Economy from the Great Purge and its impact on an economy that was only just recovering from revolution and civil war of the 1920's. Therefore, a peacetime_IC_mod, is completely justifiable as a tool to represent these factors which undermined the effectiveness of that economy prior to the war.

Your production figures mention gross steel production. Intersting, because I have looked at surveys of the Soviet Steel industry and even modern assessments of the real value of the Soviet Union's steel production showed continued inefficiency in the system:

"Measured in gross output, the Soviet Union produces more than 20 percent of the world's steel. Yet Soviet firms, especially in the machine building branch of the economy, ritually bemoan the desperate shortage of steel. Can the world's leading steel producer simultaneously be suffocating its steel-consuming indutries?"
Steeltown, USSR
Stephen Kotkin, 1991

In fact, I have not reduced IC. I have done exactly the opposite. I have increased it, but handicapped it to represent the generally bad administration of that economy.

The word is "simulation," and the vanilla model does not in any way "simulate" the fact that the Soviet Union could not produce and army capable of holding the German army at the Dvina --Dnepr line, which is completely possible for even a novice USSR player in MP, should he choose to do so, in 1941, despite the impressive production statistics advertised by the regieme. In fact, the Soviet army was not just embarrassed in 1941 in a relatively equal contest with Germany but was even more severly embarassed in the Winter War a year before against Finland.

That said, this is an interesting topic of discussion but it would be cool if we could continue it in the mod thread, as this is the game thread: East Is Red 1.06
 
Last edited:

unmerged(74599)

Nexus 6
Apr 17, 2007
4.391
0
In anycase, we discussed an early start time in chat, and Hiensen mentioned that 18:00 CET might be possible. It would be good to confirm this as the start time for all people, thanks.
 

a.d.a.m

Major
4 Badges
Jul 19, 2006
625
0
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
18 CET is fine by me. 03:00 queensland time.<
 

unmerged(74599)

Nexus 6
Apr 17, 2007
4.391
0
I can confirm 1800 as well. I think only we need Hiensen and Pred to confirm that time.
 

unmerged(64512)

Nuked man
Jan 14, 2007
1.039
0
I can :)
 

unmerged(49192)

Captain
Oct 6, 2005
368
0
From what i can work out .

With the upgrade costs so high , japan does not have the IC to upgrade. any think really .
And would be better to war china slowly then get ready for russia into the war .Then war russia making it give up as russia has to get ready for germany. Then pull units from russia war back into china war to finish up the work in china .As for japan indust is has to be waring to biuld any think .
What might work a little better is having upgrade staggered .1918 ,1936 ,1939 units easyer to upgrade but from 1941 to 1943 more to do so .As really it was only later years of the war that units started to get better back up equipment added into there lines .
EG 1918 inf might have Light hand guns , horse , and some light cannons.
1941 inf Having light and heavy machines guns ,jeep,light trucks , and light tanks and self propell guns.

So very different mix and very different cost to upgrade .Not to say for the training aswell . 1918 training compared to training to 1941 .