East is Red Multiplayer Version 1.06

[unmerged(74599)]

Added:

1) Fix 1940 US election event
2) Make sure little China's become passive after war with Nat China and Comm China. China_agression_asia
3) Make sure minor ai switches do not change the naval brigade build stats.
4) create event that gives Poland BP's for infantry etc. even though it is not in allies at M/R
5) finish setting up Cancel_Deal_threshold ai events.
6) remove huge dissent modifications for Germany for Anschlaus etc.

 

[a.d.a.m]

Perhaps just drop the neutrality of Argentina if Brazil is allied with comnitern, so that Germany or Japan can ally them quickly. This means that Japan and or Germany would have to be influencing them already before in order to get them into the alliance, right away.

brazil has a natural resistance to joining japan, they also have no befriend value with the japanese, who would honestly be the only one able to intervene, if anyone at all intervened.

 

[unmerged(74599)]

I have actually allied Agentina as Japan before I am at war in SP.

Point was that if the Axis players were sharp, they gould bring Argentina into the alliance before a DOW... problem is if USSR was keen to subvert that idea, they could ally Brazil and then attack Agentina the next day, before Axis has had time to bring Agentina into the alliance.

So, I think the two simplest solutions are, giving Germany and event where Argentina joins the Axis directly, which is not a very subtle approach, or allowing Germany to end its NAP with SU by event. This could even be the same event I guess, options are "ok," "End Soviet NAP" or "Ally Argentina".

I guess if we are going to do that we had better train Agentina to invade Falklands.

 

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Want to keep this current.

 

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Ok so we tested out new combat factors last night in a Barbarossa campaign.

Essentially the changes were as follows:

Increased ORG, defenisivness, and toughness for all units so that battles will be llonger and more player control will have more direct control of the province by province situation.

Decreases morale for all mechanized, motorized and armoured units, abstracting the fact that armour, though powerful in assault, also suffered from serious limitations in terms of logistics and supply, and took longer to reorganize.

Slightly increased speed for infantry, in order to compensate for battle length, by allowing more rapid exploitation.

It was a pretty interesting session, and Germany was able to progress to more or less historical battle lines, while Russia was also able to defend. Overall the system plays something like half way between MEM and vanilla.



Increased MP loses all around, however, in order to adjust for this, I would increase unit cost by about 20%. This way there would be less units overall, which would have the added benefit of reducing upload time and CPU burden, especially in the later years.

 

[a.d.a.m]

I'd say you need to do tests on say when allies are trying to make a d-day landing. that was my biggest concern with MEM and probably one of the things that makes me dislike it. If combat is longer then when you're making amphibious landings in france with a support defense germany can have reinforcements to a province within 6 hours or so depending on the area. Well normally you would have at least scruffed up the defenders that were waiting for reinforcements, but if the combat values are too high they may be barely even hurt by the time an overwhelming number of divisions arrive, then you the attacker will suffer huge losses from attacking a heavily guarded shore. Another thing is with armor, in MEM I'd pretty much bet a single armor with an engineer running around germany shores would be very dangerous, maybe even with a heavy armor brigade. How long would that delay an amphib landing since marines hard attack is so low? it's very very easy to rotate entire shorelines around to keep fresh divisions. The amount of divisions that need to be in the water will have to be very very very high to make a successful landing. I think MEM offsets this a bit by making germany not really able to put more than 1-2 divisions on each shore because of MP, but allies also suffer this MP penalty and UK will have the IC to build almost nothing once the war starts because they need all their IC to supply allied armies, navies, and air except for a small amount of IC for production which covered my wanted amount of FTR plane cost. But that's MEM and I don't like it

Now other than that which are valid complaints, but it's like oh well...this is a big game changer. To win a battle for an island you absolutely must have naval superiority. In vanilla it is possible to perform quick amphib landing attempts as italy with the hopes of winning and retreating in time from the RN...if Battles are anything like MEM you will be sitting in the water for soooo very long and are almost sure to be caught by the RN. This I think will make it almost impossible for the axis nations to perform even the smallest amphibous operations(crete is what I am thinking of ATM although I am sure there are a few more cases) Also it will be harder to make landings with Japan unless the strength of CVs are increased to provide the IJN naval cover from anything but another group of CVs.

I have actually allied Agentina as Japan before I am at war in SP.

I just seen this and felt like commenting...Unless you couped them this couldn't have happened without an edit, unless some type of underlying AI kicked in to make them a japanese friend.


last concern I had was about the decreased morale. I don't understand why armor would take longer to reorganize. Not saying you're wrong but to me reorganization is getting battle ready again, which would consist of making sure units were properly supplied and "in the mood"(they didn't just suffer a huge defeat 3 days ago aka morale) for another fight. Anything other than those two aspects would go under the STR column to me. like fixing any damaged tanks, replacing new ones etc. and that would have to do with repair rate and not morale. Technically I think(not sure) a single man can still be classified as an entire division if he is the last one alive from that division. or a single tank as the case is now. If you're talking about it's harder to keep them supplied with fuel and ammo then that should effect their supply eff. IMO.

 

[unmerged(74599)]

Well, I have allied Argentina in SP, while not at war. Got it to a 7% chance and so, kept hitting it.

As for Mem and Aphibious assaults and the like, yes, the problem with making adjustments to any of this stuff is that it changes conditions everywhere, and the different battle environments are different. A really good idea to test it in a Normandy scenario. Though, Russia obviously offers the best overall test range, since the campaign is long, and so the results can be viewed over a long period of time.

While I am really appreciative of the MEM system for a lot of reasons, it is not entirely to my taste. I immediatly new when playing MEM that I wanted a combat system which was somewhere between MEM and vanilla. I figure this modification puts it about 1/3rd of the way between vanilla and MEM. Otherwise I would just be modding the MEM events, and using the MEM values and tweaking those for Armageddon. But I am not doing that.

Maybe have to reduce the speed of support defence.

As for mechanized units and morale, I agree, first of all we have to consider the fact that morale is really an abstraction for a lot of factors, not just how excited the boys are, as you indicate. It is basicly how long it takes for a unit to get re-organized after combat.

Think about it this way, in the reverse. Slow moving infantry plodding along in shouting distance from each other make a far more cohesive combat formation, than mechanized units speeding ahead, getting seperated in the rush, and then when at the very far end of their extension they spend time waiting for fuel, specialized munition, parts for vehicles etc. Logistics always takes time to cath up, repair communications, fix bridges, set up supply depots, repair rail lines and the like. Infantry not only have far fewer of these needs they also carry much of this stuff with them in the van. So, overall, it is fair to say that keeping infantry moving and organized at the slow speed that they advance is much simpler than doing the same with any kind of mechanized unit used in the war.

Supply efficiency only effects how much supply these units use, not how long it takes to be put into effect. Repair rate only effects ships and planes, AFAIK. In my mind reducing mechanized morale (by 10% -- I think it should really be more) is the best way in an imperfect system to express the time it takes for logistics to catch up to the faster units at the far end of the supply line, not the availability of supply, munitions and parts, but how long supply, munitions and parts, takes to arrive.

Von Manteufal said: "Any competent officer can command a Panzer Division, it takes a genius to supply one."

 

[a.d.a.m]

Supply efficiency only effects how much supply these units use, not how long it takes to be put into effect

straight from wiki cause I am lazy and wasn't too sure how it worked .

ESE Combat Effect

ESE has a direct combat effect for land combat that is shown in the list of combat modifiers for each div. when the div. is in combat. To calculate the ESE combat effect:

Subtract 100 from the division’s ESE then divide that by 2.

Ex. with an ESE of 108.04: (108.04-100) = 8.04 = ESE +4.02 which is shown in the combat modifiers.

Ex. with an ESE of 71.90: (71.90-100) = -28.10 = ESE –14.05 which is shown in the combat modifiers.


ESE combat effects can be positive but are usually negative. Defenders in their own countries can have negative ESE combat effects due primarily to low infrastructure. ESE is calculated by using a friendly province's infrastructure, not the province in which combat takes place. ESE combat modifiers can often be the equivalent of subtracting several skill levels from your Generals.

ESE lower than 100 has other unit effects. Unit with <100 ESE will recover organization slower and will get upgrades and reinforcements slower. ESE also has a speed effect which reduces speed by up to 50% that is proportional to the ESE: lower ESE means lower speed. The HQ’s ESE effect is directly added to the speed so that an HQ which gives 5% ESE will also given nearby corps a 5% speed boost.

Repair rate only effects ships and planes

that just sounds very wrong but I honestly don't know, and it seems as of right now no one else knows either, but I'd almost be damn sure it effects repairs of at least tanks and mechs if not also mots.

 

[unmerged(74599)]

Thanks for the breakdown.

That is interesting about ESE, still I don't know how one effects ESE on specific types of units. Its an across the board impact, is it not?

Incidentally, I asked Edzako about his experience with Japan and Argentina, and alliance, he says he did it in Arma too. Is it possible that you can't because you go National Socialist in the 2-2-6 coup?

Edited to add, now he says he misunderstood me, and he can not. Perhaps something happened between DD1.3a and Armageddon, because I know I did it before.

 

[a.d.a.m]

Incidentally, I asked Edzako about his experience with Japan and Argentina, and alliance, he says he did it in Arma too. Is it possible that you can't because you go National Socialist in the 2-2-6 coup?

well that could have been the problem, I edited arg to be exactly like japan with slider...which was full right wing and full authoritarian. I just had a coup last session, so if ARG exisists we could test it but I am pretty sure they will not ally you, because under their

befriend =

(you probably know this but that is the value that states how willing another nation is to join your alliance with high relations) japan is not listed, while germany has a very low value of like 50 I think. Now I think under normal circumstances if you had ARG sliders exactly like japan's, there would be like a 6 percent chance they would join you at 200 relations, maybe higher....but ARG also has the value of

resistance = jap = 9

so with that resistance it negates any chance japan would have to join. they have a resistance to GER of 2 also I think, but their befriend value with germany is 50, so that offsets it....still only like 20 percent chance with germany and 200 relations + exact same sliders.

 

[a.d.a.m]

double post

 

[a.d.a.m]

was a triple post it seems heh. what do you have to say about increased morale for planes? with the new damage rates planes aren't near as powerful anymore and must spend a lot more time at base regaining just STR, it has just always seems a bit ridiculous to me that if you base at a province that makes you go to 0 organization...let's see 62 org with a 1.63 regain...that's roughly 38 days until the planes were "organized and prepared to fight"...I just don't see it taking over a month to prepare air superiority missions. With higher morale I think it will make a 10 airbase 100 infrastructure province a very valuable asset or investment. just a thought as air is a lot less useful in armageddon.

 

[a.d.a.m]

I'd like to see this update included in the new wednesday game since I think it was forgotten about. And here's the way I believe it has to be done since no one understands the correct problem.

Edit Scenario Startup Jan 1 1936: Add 2 dissent to UK and change their minister of Intel to IC +5 guy. This simulates starting a vanilla 1936 and UK changing head of intel.

This should fix it until the abdication event. Then inside that event I would add to make it change the minister of Intel to the IC+5 guy as it seems to disappear but not really disappear during this event also, unless you are the one hosting the game in which case, it does nothing. (YOU ALSO GET LESS DISSENT!)

if you find this event could you point out the location of it to me? I want to see why in MP I sometimes get up to 9 dissent, but in single player I ALWAYS get EXACTLY 2. This could have something to do with why your ministers get screwed also, and could very well be why you get so much damn dissent, because it reswitches all your ministers and gives you dissent or something, that event is just fucked =]. Never heard of "random dissent" and I want to see the coding for it as I firmly believe it is yet another paradox error and not WAD. Sole reason for this belief is that MP events and SP events ARE NOT different....so that would mean no different amount of dissent for a single player game and a MP game.

 

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I'd say you need to do tests on say when allies are trying to make a d-day landing. that was my biggest concern with MEM and probably one of the things that makes me dislike it. If combat is longer then when you're making amphibious landings in france with a support defense germany can have reinforcements to a province within 6 hours or so depending on the area. Well normally you would have at least scruffed up the defenders that were waiting for reinforcements, but if the combat values are too high they may be barely even hurt by the time an overwhelming number of divisions arrive, then you the attacker will suffer huge losses from attacking a heavily guarded shore. Another thing is with armor, in MEM I'd pretty much bet a single armor with an engineer running around germany shores would be very dangerous, maybe even with a heavy armor brigade. How long would that delay an amphib landing since marines hard attack is so low? it's very very easy to rotate entire shorelines around to keep fresh divisions. The amount of divisions that need to be in the water will have to be very very very high to make a successful landing. I think MEM offsets this a bit by making germany not really able to put more than 1-2 divisions on each shore because of MP, but allies also suffer this MP penalty and UK will have the IC to build almost nothing once the war starts because they need all their IC to supply allied armies, navies, and air except for a small amount of IC for production which covered my wanted amount of FTR plane cost.

Sry to butt in but:

1) You would be suprised how "fast" 4 imp marines on offensive supply with spart can deal with a defending 3 garrison + 1 infantry - even tank if you got planes helping. Of course if you just dump the 4 marines like in vanilla and expect to win you would be decieving yourself. Landings HAVE to be a huge effort on the part of the attacker - otherwise we get situations like in vanilla where you just stockpile and are guaranteed to win. Which if you like is of course fine. However in MEM without air sup and naval backing - dont expect to have an easy time. You can easily knock down the defending units org with planes for a quicker effect. That said I have seen games in which 3 uk mountain troops was enough to get a foothold - as germany is just at times unable to defend all from dax to denmark.

2) Yes a good defence by Germany is basic. A tank with eng on reserve misson will help - though not if Germany doesnt maintain air sup - or the attack is strong. It is however, as you notice yourself hard to come up with so many tanks to cover all the beaches, plus the fact that reserve and suport defence missions have been slowed down really doesnt make it a walk in the park for the axis. Not to mention that SR take way longer than in vanilla.

3) Id also like to point out that in vanilla the zerg rush was the way to go - in MEM its basic to attack multiple beachheads to tie down reinforcements. Not to mention dropping a para. A lot of players dont like it and I understand. Just dont see that being changed.

4) You point on UK points out that you either only played the first 6 months of MEM as uk or did some wierd builds. UK, as currently proved in many MEM games, can build enough planes, armour, ships to hold off germany for a bit - after war starts they usually have 150-200 ic on production (out of a total of 370). So i really dont know why you say that they lack ic except for supplies??
Obv if you expect uk to be able to dday without USA, and hold off the whole axis then we just have 2 different apporaches to how the game should run. The last UK that played v me (germany) was easily able to maintain air sup as I couldnt keep both uk and russia at bay.

 

[unmerged(74599)]

Thanks for the input.

Ok, so at this point I am not 100% sure how the various combat mechanics will work to impact play overall, and most importantly balance.

So, I will be putting out 1.7 for Wednesday's game with very few changes in this regard. The main change will be in overall game dynamics and the addition of a few events:

The major new events will be an event to prevent Allies trading with USSR prior to the war and events to further encourage SU to trade with Germany. As we all know relations were not good between the western states and the USSR prior to 1941, and in an effort further simulate the real scope of international relations of the time, UK and France will get dissent if they are trading with USSR:

I am posting this message that comes with the event, as I don't expect anyone will be foolish enough to trigger it:

Trading with the enemy...



An event that USSR and the German player will see is the "Military Reasearch and Industrial Co-operation" event:

This event does a number of things. Mainly it is intended to give the USSR a reason to maintain starting trades with Germany, as it decreases their peacetime_IC_mod and gives them a research bonus if they do. Both Germany and USSR get the research bonus and a few, not super-important BP's for keeping this agreement going. If no trade happens between Germany and USSR, then Germany will get an event to cancel the agreement.

Historical Note: Prior to the NSDAP coming to power in Germany relations between the two pariah states of Europe were good, and the engaged in mutualy beneficial military research and trade agreements. In order to get around the Versaille treaty Germany trained airborne troops in Russia, and also many of the rocket technologies which were behind the Nebelwefer rocket launcher and the Katyusha spring from the same research projects. Some of this technical co-operation, and more importantly trade between the USSR and Germany went on right through Molotoc Ribentrop, and in fact the start of Barbrossa.

This event simulates this, and it will be up to the German and Soviet player to determine what it is worth to them. But, the agreement itself benefits SU more that it does Germany, so, Germany can preassure SU to keep some kind of trade going between the two power.

Hence, USSR starts with the BP for Airborne infantry, this is the first BP they revcieve for maintaining good relations with Germany.
Further events:

Indonesia:

The indonesia events are opperative in this game. Japan can occupy the Dutch east indies in the same manner that Germany can gain ownership of European Holland, and can release Indonesia, if it is not at war with UK.

Turkey

In the case of an A-historical invasion of Turkey by Axis, USSR will have the possibility of cancelling the NAP with Germany.

Brazil/USSR/Agentina

In the case of an A-historical alliance between Brazil and USSR and a USSR DOW'ing Argentina, Germany will have events that allow it to break its NAP with SU, if SU you does not make white peace with Argentina.

 

[unmerged(64512)]

nice done cue

 

[unmerged(74599)]

Thanks. I edited that a little for more info.

 

[unmerged(74599)]

Changed OP to reflect significant changes in version 1.07.

 

[unmerged(74599)]

1. To create a version of HOI which reflects the actual strategic dynamics of the war, without the introduction of artificial rules.
   
2. If rules must be introduced they should be introduced by event, and have as few in-house rules as possible, other than all countries must respect NAP's, not SR frontline units, no giving away the French airforce and fleet just before Vichy, etc.
   
3. Make the Asian theater actually defenisible to the British so that the CW will defend it, as opposed to concentrating on Europe, throughout the war, so that Japan will get a more active game. Make it important for them to do so.

 

[unmerged(74599)]

1) Create "Bring Socialism" event so that Finland is made puppet of SU, rather than being released without leaders, et al.

2)

a) Give ownership of Borneo to Japan when it is conquered by Japan.
b) Give ownership of Singapore region when it is conquered by Japan.

3) Contract coding on Victory in the Pacific event in line with 2

4) Create NAP's for Japan and UK and USA. Removed when Germany attacks SU. Yes/no?