Doesn't matter - even just a few years with a ruler that good will secure a comfortable start.
easiest nation to form Italy with?
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Don't worry so much about the unlawful territory - it isn't that bad. You get like -10 from that, and I guess -15 from the associated CBs but if you're expanding everyone will have those CBs on you anyway and they'll also be forming CBs with forged claims. Aggressive expansion gives you a much worse diplomacy hit than the HRE thing. You can --- almost --- get all of Italy together before it goes overboard. Unfortunately you gotta pace yourself to get all the territories otherwise you'll be fighting coalitions like I had to. this is why I said get powerful allies in case this happens haha. If you're patient and can wait like 10-20 years between wars you'll be fine fine no worries at all. Oh and one more thing when you're giong for Lombardia, don't forget to get the land in-between (Cremonia?) even though it's useless, but it's so much worse to have a disconnected province. The main reason for this is that there tend to be lots of rebel uprisings in the AI territories around there so if you can't get to Lombardia to defend it then bye bye. So take that stupid land, unless you get lucky and can just take Liguria instead.
As for the HRE thing, for which territory would get you that event? I have quite a number of HRE territories and I'm in the HRE but I only ever got the unlawful thing a single time after I took Nice from France and I just said no (who would give up Nice?).
Here's what I've got so far. About 80 years in (I made Milan release Corsica!):
Anyway I've been slowing things up so relations have eased up a bit and there's no coalitions on me at the moment! Except that France obviously hates me bc in the treaty I made them release a bunch of nations they'd already conquered lol
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By the way I completely agree about forming the Italian nation. I've decided not to form because the fact that it "looks cool" isn't good enough for me. Italy has nice national ideas BUT the basic despotic Republic gives 0.25+ morale boost to all units (that's like.. 100 army tradition?). Why would I give that up and switch to a monarchy and risk some stupid French person claming my throne some day? ridiculous!
That's exactly how I did it. But I made claims on both Roma and Romagna and later on took them in one blow. Naples is easy to defeat. You just have to wait for Aragon to be busy in a war. If Aragon later on is a subject of Spain you wait until Spain (and Aragon) is fighting France. By 1521 I have almost everything from Calabria to Firenze + Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica. In the east I have taken Treviso, Friuli and another province just above Venice. Ferarra, Modena and everything above is still to conquer. But Savoy, Milano, Venice and Austria are in a coalition with a few other countries against Tuscany so I have to be careful.
When you read guides about what country to play many advice to play a larger country. But with Tuscany it's possible to play a smaller one and still stay in the game after a couple of decades.
At the moment Tuscany is the largest trading nation in the Mediterranian and Venice is only two small islands.
I'm pretty sure that tuscany will be the first nation to discover the "New World" and maybe even some countries in Africa.
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Well, when I first started expanding, I was worried that the emperor might enforce the unlawful territory CB (which I received for annexing Siena) quite aggressively, but Austria didn't seem to care, as they were already my allies by this point. I assume, however, that because diplo-annexing Milan will automatically give me a core on Lombardia, the unlawful territory penalty won't even apply. The most significant penalty is that diplo-annexing an HRE members will cost me 25 opinion with the other members, which shouldn't matter too much.Don't worry so much about the unlawful territory - it isn't that bad. You get like -10 from that, and I guess -15 from the associated CBs but if you're expanding everyone will have those CBs on you anyway and they'll also be forming CBs with forged claims. Aggressive expansion gives you a much worse diplomacy hit than the HRE thing. You can --- almost --- get all of Italy together before it goes overboard. Unfortunately you gotta pace yourself to get all the territories otherwise you'll be fighting coalitions like I had to. this is why I said get powerful allies in case this happens haha. If you're patient and can wait like 10-20 years between wars you'll be fine fine no worries at all. Oh and one more thing when you're giong for Lombardia, don't forget to get the land in-between (Cremonia?) even though it's useless, but it's so much worse to have a disconnected province. The main reason for this is that there tend to be lots of rebel uprisings in the AI territories around there so if you can't get to Lombardia to defend it then bye bye. So take that stupid land, unless you get lucky and can just take Liguria instead.
As for the HRE thing, for which territory would get you that event? I have quite a number of HRE territories and I'm in the HRE but I only ever got the unlawful thing a single time after I took Nice from France and I just said no (who would give up Nice?).
Here's what I've got so far. About 80 years in (I made Milan release Corsica!):
Anyway I've been slowing things up so relations have eased up a bit and there's no coalitions on me at the moment! Except that France obviously hates me bc in the treaty I made them release a bunch of nations they'd already conquered lol
Anyway, the only requirements I have left to form Italy are to gain Lombardia and wait for admin tech 10. And yes, my next move is to probably take Liguria to give myself access to Lombardia. The other interesting development in my game is that I decided to break with Aragon completely after they annexed Naples and align myself with Castile, which is perfect because there is now a three way alliance between me, Castile, and Austria. Aragon got sucked into a nasty war with France, and that seemed like a propitious time to strike at southern Italy. Besides a 10,000 man stack stationed near my border, there was almost no resistance.
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Well, when I first started expanding, I was worried that the emperor might enforce the unlawful territory CB, which I received for annexing Siena, quite aggressively, but Austria didn't seem to care (and they were already my allies by this point). I assume, however, that because diplo-annexing Milan will automatically give me a core on Lombardia, the unlawful territory penalty won't even apply. The most significant penalty is that diplo-annexing an HRE members will cost me 25 opinion with the other members, which shouldn't matter too much.
Anyway, the only requirements I have left to form Italy are to gain Lombardia and wait for admin tech 10. And yes, my next move is to probably take Liguria to give myself access to Lombardia. The other interesting development in my game is that I decided to break with Aragon completely after they annexed Naples and align myself with Castile, which is perfect because there is now a three way alliance between me, Castile, and Austria. Aragon got sucked into a nasty war with France, and that seemed like a propitious time to strike at southern Italy. They really didn't stand much of a chance.
See, it's hapenning already! France swallowing up Savoy, and most of the French independent nations are gone...
You lucked out nicely with the Naples situation. In my game, Aragon and Napoli were together for ages. The downside of this situation you have now is that Spain and Castille are at war it seems? That is very bad because you really need those two to be fighting together against France later instead of each other! You really shouldn't be rooting for France right now because I they're most certainly not gonna be rooting for you later. Yes Austria is a good ally but they're all the way on the other side, might not find a land path, and are probably also concerned with the east (which, by the way, is doing a nice job slowing the Ottomans in your game!)
I basically just prepared the entire time for the eventual war with France. The thing is, they like Milan's lands and once Milan's lands are yours they're gonna like YOUR lands. If you don't want to face France then forming italy is a really bad idea. You might consider instead just avoiding northern expansion completely and take all the south of Italy - and maybe if you're feeling especially hungry you can go for Venice soon after. If you're set on getting Italian nation then maybe right now you should start to eat through Venice to make a landpath through your territory for Austria. And before France attacks do what you can to get England into that war too, because they're the only thing that stops a completely negative war score (French navy blockades in the Mediterrannean will be unstoppable if they don't lose to England's navy up north, and as a smaller nation you can't afford to build a competent navy cause you're gonna need every last dime for the bigger war). If France gets more of Aragon they're gonna be fielding 90+ armies so keep that in mind later.
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No need to prepare for war with France; I made an alliance with them instead. Austria was proving to be a terrible ally and therefore wasn't worth the expense of maintaining good relations. I knew they were headed for disaster when they depleted all their manpower fighting pointless internal wars within the HRE, so when they inevitably got called into war with France, it was almost completely one-sided. France took most of their Burgundian provinces in a peace deal. But instead of rebuilding their army, Austria, not content to merely lose their territory to France, almost immediately declared holy war against the Ottomans. I don't know how that ended because I peaced out early. The final straw came when Austria tried to call me into another war against France and Venice. I declined the offer of self-immolation and tried to placate France instead. This policy of begging for mercy seems to have worked out in the long run, but it took several years to gain any sort of traction; France's opinion toward me oscillated between hostile, domineering, and neutral. But their interest in conquering northern Italy seems to have waned so I'm hoping for long term peace.
Now, though, it's not at all obvious where I should expand to since I'm surrounded by strong nations; anything I do on my northern border will simply draw the ire of France. My medium term goal is to become the emperor, but forming Italy set my legitimacy to zero so I'll have to wait for my heir to take over before the electors will seriously consider me. And compared to EU3 I can't find a good way to raise legitimacy quickly since advisors are random and the number of diplomatic relations limits my ability to propose royal marriages.
Now, though, it's not at all obvious where I should expand to since I'm surrounded by strong nations; anything I do on my northern border will simply draw the ire of France. My medium term goal is to become the emperor, but forming Italy set my legitimacy to zero so I'll have to wait for my heir to take over before the electors will seriously consider me. And compared to EU3 I can't find a good way to raise legitimacy quickly since advisors are random and the number of diplomatic relations limits my ability to propose royal marriages.
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Formed with Naples, you can made it easily a strong southern kingdom to take the peninsula.
Just formed Italy about an hour ago.
My vote goes to Tuscany.
My strategy was to grab the non-imperial provinces first. Once you have Rome+ et all, you can worry about expanding in the empire. Sienna is an easy conquest if you do it early before anyone can become alarmed by your expansion. I allied with Austria and France, deciding I'd keep them both happy for as long as possible and then pick a side later. This worked for the most part. Even though they fought multiple wars against one another, they never called me to arms. Eventually the French/Tuscan Alliance failed because they kept taking imperial provinces and it added a malus to our relationship. I fought hard to keep them friendly though. Austria is very happy to repeatedly demand imperial provinces. They asked me literally a every time I took one, even when i was taking them from Venice. I have noticed they will to ask if they are already at war however, so you can use that to your advantage.
By the time I had taken Ferrara and Modena, my alliance with France shattered. I wasn't worried about the attacking me but I was worried they'd get to Lombardia before I did so I went on the super aggressive (thanks to my super high administrative stat, republics are awesome.) and claimed and cored all of Milan at once.
Then I sat still for about 15 years will my aggression went down and tech 10 became affordable.
Now I have a shiny new alliance with Spain, and I have the second largest army in the world. My limit is 52 versus France's 75. Fortunately, they can only afford to field around 62 at a time. I've reclaimed all of Italy save for Sardinia and Sicily which are owned by Spain. I figure becoming emperor is a no-go because my legitimacy is at 0. I really wish there was a way to stay a republic. Anyway, I'm going to bide my time and money until the next big France V Everyone War breaks out and try to bring France down to manageable size. Once they are no longer an imminent threat I'm gonna grab my territory from Spain.
My vote goes to Tuscany.
My strategy was to grab the non-imperial provinces first. Once you have Rome+ et all, you can worry about expanding in the empire. Sienna is an easy conquest if you do it early before anyone can become alarmed by your expansion. I allied with Austria and France, deciding I'd keep them both happy for as long as possible and then pick a side later. This worked for the most part. Even though they fought multiple wars against one another, they never called me to arms. Eventually the French/Tuscan Alliance failed because they kept taking imperial provinces and it added a malus to our relationship. I fought hard to keep them friendly though. Austria is very happy to repeatedly demand imperial provinces. They asked me literally a every time I took one, even when i was taking them from Venice. I have noticed they will to ask if they are already at war however, so you can use that to your advantage.
By the time I had taken Ferrara and Modena, my alliance with France shattered. I wasn't worried about the attacking me but I was worried they'd get to Lombardia before I did so I went on the super aggressive (thanks to my super high administrative stat, republics are awesome.) and claimed and cored all of Milan at once.
Then I sat still for about 15 years will my aggression went down and tech 10 became affordable.
Now I have a shiny new alliance with Spain, and I have the second largest army in the world. My limit is 52 versus France's 75. Fortunately, they can only afford to field around 62 at a time. I've reclaimed all of Italy save for Sardinia and Sicily which are owned by Spain. I figure becoming emperor is a no-go because my legitimacy is at 0. I really wish there was a way to stay a republic. Anyway, I'm going to bide my time and money until the next big France V Everyone War breaks out and try to bring France down to manageable size. Once they are no longer an imminent threat I'm gonna grab my territory from Spain.
They haven't formed the country yet, but in my game Tuscany (AI controlled) annexed the entire peninsula (including the Papal States) over just a few decades. Might want to give them a try as they had a surprisingly easy time of it.
I did it with Milan. If I had to do it again, I would use Tuscany.
Milan starts in a miserable position on the map. France, Austria, and Venice all want to kill you. France and Austria often get early missions to kill you. If they set you as a rival or get these missions, they won't ally with you against the others. You are tiny. They are not. You're in for a wild ride. It's very doable (hey, I did it!) but it's a rough start to the game until you blob up a bit. You must be constantly vigilant against a lot of more powerful enemies. Which is quite fun, but not easy.
Tuscany starts in the middle of various one province minors. It also starts with an amazing ruler. You should have no problem quickly taking down your neighbors, becoming a major power in Italy. With that, you should be able to take out the rest. By the time you have to deal with the Venetians, the Austrians, and the French you should have a little more power to handle them.
Milan starts in a miserable position on the map. France, Austria, and Venice all want to kill you. France and Austria often get early missions to kill you. If they set you as a rival or get these missions, they won't ally with you against the others. You are tiny. They are not. You're in for a wild ride. It's very doable (hey, I did it!) but it's a rough start to the game until you blob up a bit. You must be constantly vigilant against a lot of more powerful enemies. Which is quite fun, but not easy.
Tuscany starts in the middle of various one province minors. It also starts with an amazing ruler. You should have no problem quickly taking down your neighbors, becoming a major power in Italy. With that, you should be able to take out the rest. By the time you have to deal with the Venetians, the Austrians, and the French you should have a little more power to handle them.
Did it with Tuscany on ironman a few days ago. Claimed and conquered Urbino and Siena first, then claimed Roma and annexed the Papal State. Started driving northwards but encountered a coalition of pretty much every Italian country minus Venice. Fought them to a standstill, then peaced out because Naples which had become free from Aragon attacked me in the back. Took the three provinces between Napoli and Salento, then in a second war I claimed and took Napoli and vassalized Naples, now only consisting of Salento. After that I just picked off the northern states one by one. Relations with Austria and France were kept acceptable thanks to improve relations, and Spain was placated too for good measure. Told the Austrians to go home every time they pressed me to return unlawful territory, just core them and they will go away. I had all the cores required for forming Italy before I even had admin tech 10. If you want to get all your Italian provinces you will have to come head to head with Aragon/Spain over Sicily and Sardinia, and with Austria over Venice which they may have eaten up much of at this time. I crushed the Austrians and then allied with Spain vs France because they were the biggest threat to me, after beating them I considered the game finished because my manpower and income were near the top and it had gotten too easy.
Ah well if that works then all the better. I tried to placate france for a long time but then they just turned their "attitude" toward me, regardless of all our positive points and our royal ties and such. I hope you can stay at peace with France that would be a nice load off anyone's back!
The legitimacy thing - does that reset if you get a new heir and they take the throne?
It isn't that surprising. I picked Tuscany for the very simple reason of their high stats leader. IN this game one good leader is major OP
I have done it with Venice twice. I found that if you are going for Venice, it is best to grab an ally of Hungary and Bohemia right off the bat, spam about 18k mercs, fabricate a claim on Austria, and then attack. Bohemia declined to join, but Hungary did. I sacc'd all of my mercs at the beginning destroying Austrian troops and then once the Austrians were dead, I disbanded the mercenaries. This saved my own MP. I fought two wars against Austria before ever taking any Italy required provinces. The good news was that I laughed in the face of Austria's HRE demands while conquering Italy. Hungary and Bohemia proved fairly reliable allies and good deterents for any outside aggression. Austria would always join to support the Italian minors, but it never posed much of a threat after losing half its territory.
However, dismantling Austria may not have been the best decision for the long-term game as the Ottomans are at my doorstep, Hungary is almost gone, and Bohemia hates me now for some reason. The ottomans hate me but have not attacked yet. I fear if they do, it could get messy. Still, not having the big white bad-a$$ to the north always trying to tell me "no no no" everytime I look at the Italian minors made me think this was the way to go. My first game was brutal, as Austria was allied with Castile, who was allied with Portugal and in a PU with Aragon. Portugal was in a PU with England, so every war against an Italian minor involved fighting Austria, England, Castile, Aragon, and several other random countries. Sometimes, I'd win, sometimes I'd lose, but it made for a tough slog to form Italy.
However, dismantling Austria may not have been the best decision for the long-term game as the Ottomans are at my doorstep, Hungary is almost gone, and Bohemia hates me now for some reason. The ottomans hate me but have not attacked yet. I fear if they do, it could get messy. Still, not having the big white bad-a$$ to the north always trying to tell me "no no no" everytime I look at the Italian minors made me think this was the way to go. My first game was brutal, as Austria was allied with Castile, who was allied with Portugal and in a PU with Aragon. Portugal was in a PU with England, so every war against an Italian minor involved fighting Austria, England, Castile, Aragon, and several other random countries. Sometimes, I'd win, sometimes I'd lose, but it made for a tough slog to form Italy.
I tried it 4 times and he never lived longer than the end of the first year, that's not really that much of an benefit.
If it's anything like EU3, then legitimacy should reset to 100, or close to it, once a strong heir inherits the throne. The problem with forming Italy is that the first king starts out young and without an heir, so I'm stuck with low legitimacy for a long time. If on the very rare chance that my king died without an heir, I would've been forced into a personal union. The first opportunity to get an heir came through an event in which my king would sleep around and get a 1/1/1 heir with a weak claim or demure and receive papal influence. I held out for something better and went with the latter. In retrospect that was the right decision because later I got another event where I could choose from three pretty good heirs (named either Caesar, Alexander, or Johan; I went with Johan).
I just played four test games of my own and Cosimo lived to April 1445, February 1446, January 1449, and one all the way to 1450, respectively. That's more than enough time to gain a distinct advantage over the other Italian nations, and most importantly the next election upon Cosimo's death will allow you to choose a ruler who is very competent in one stat. Most of the other Italian nations are kingdoms that are basically stuck with terrible rulers for the foreseeable future. The only ones that have decent rulers are Naples (in a personal union), Mantua (in a bad starting position), and Venice. So Tuscany compares very favorably. In my original game I was able to choose the trade idea, reach the next military tech, and boost my stability to +2 before the other Italian nations could even do much of anything.
Wouldn't the smartest was to form Italy be to A)only go after the provinces you NEED first (so save those Italian minors for later!) And if possible vassalize Milan to annex later and get auto core, and potentially do the same with Siena thus avoiding the wrath of the Emperor... sure, it might take a little time, but worth it in the long run.
Cause when you do finally form Italy you get cores on all those provinces, making your life a whole lot easier!
Cause when you do finally form Italy you get cores on all those provinces, making your life a whole lot easier!