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Tarvok

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I listen to history podcasts from time to time, and one thing I've noted is that early medieval vassalage was a lot more personal, and a lot less connected to the ideal of a state. A king's control over territory was much more tenuous; the death of a king was much more likely to result in the shattering of the State. This isn't terribly well modeled in CK2, but I think modeling it would be fairly easy within the existing framework.

Currently, there are two forms of title holding: Feudal and Imperial. Imperial titles are enabled by Imperial administration, and provide the advantage of being able to reissue them every time the holder dies, and also being able to retract them at will. Feudal holders aren't happy about the existence of Imperial titles. What I propose is the addition of a third, more primitive form of title holding, the name of which, but which would work as follows.

CK2's current method would be enabled by adopting late feudal administration. Prior to this, vassals would be about as connected to their liege as secondary heirs under elective gavelkind, or khans in nomadic realms. By this, I mean upon the liege's death, vassals would have the option to go independent for free. Further, their heirs wouldn't get any special claims, just the usual de jure claim (and dying without being eligible for the title might destroy it entirely, until such time as a great statesman arises to recreate it).

Under certain cultures, these titles would have different names to reflect the period of history being modeled. For example, the Anglo-Saxon king level title might be called "Bretwalda" or something, with their duke level vassals being called "petty kings". Irish might have a High King (or translated equivalent). The feel we'd be going for is the idea that these are the early, mythical kings were came before their time and lacked the institutions necessary to leave the title to their heirs.
 
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Sunshine Moon

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I really like the idea; would you want a Tribal government rework roughly in line with this, too, to prevent stability from going down from a realm settling from tribal to early feudal? Since this 'early feudal' type represents a transitional phase between tribal government and the archetypal feudal governing style of the later medieval period.

(It also further highlights the need for more instability in Iqta realms to balance that of standard feudal realms, imo)
 

delta180

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By this, I mean upon the liege's death, vassals would have the option to go independent for free. Further, their heirs wouldn't get any special claims, just the usual de jure claim (and dying without being eligible for the title might destroy it entirely, until such time as a great statesman arises to recreate it).
I think it would be a bit annoying to expand your realm only for the vassals you took over to break free each time
 

vandevere

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I think it would be a bit annoying to expand your realm only for the vassals you took over to break free each time
So make it a Game Rule. I wouldn't want the aggravation either. But there are clearly some masochists out there who do...
 

moscal

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So make it a Game Rule. I wouldn't want the aggravation either. But there are clearly some masochists out there who do...
I think it would be a bit annoying to expand your realm only for the vassals you took over to break free each time
For nomadic realms game have rule "Nomad Stability" (about Vassal breakaway), so why early feudalism shoudln't have similar rule? But first early feudalism should have few own separate mechanics.
 

Moonshadow101

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I think this is a solid idea, but it needs a bit of refinement to avoid being a nightmare - rather than your vassals instantly breaking away, there should be a check for each one.

If they love the new character, they stick around.
If they don't, an event triggers and you have the option to "negotiate" to keep them. Maybe they want a council seat, or maybe they want no fuedal taxes for the next 5 years, or whatever. You can either accept their demands and keep them, or refuse and lose them.
If they hate the new king, they break away with no chance to recover.

In addition, I'd say that only the top ~4-5 most powerful vassals should have the possibility of breaking away. Anyone less prominent than that would just be annoying to have to deal with.
 

Almaron

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Could it perhaps be tied to how centralised your realm is? Like, the more decentralised you are, the more likely people might break away?
That being said, what were the examples those podcasts cited for vassals breaking away upon death? I can't help but think it'll be ahistoric if EVERY state faces collapse upon death of their monarch...it might be worth looking at what led those states to collapse in the first place and seeing if those specific scenarios can be replicated in game with key events.
 

vandevere

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Could it perhaps be tied to how centralised your realm is? Like, the more decentralised you are, the more likely people might break away?
That being said, what were the examples those podcasts cited for vassals breaking away upon death? I can't help but think it'll be ahistoric if EVERY state faces collapse upon death of their monarch...it might be worth looking at what led those states to collapse in the first place and seeing if those specific scenarios can be replicated in game with key events.
There are only a few things which might be acceptable causes...
1)The heir is a minor
2) The heir is an adult, but utterly useless as a Ruler
3) the Ruler who just died was a tyrant
4) the breakaways are disconnected from the main body of the realm. Exclaves...

It should also be a Game Rule...
 

Chlodio

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I think it would be a bit annoying to expand your realm only for the vassals you took over to break free each time
Yet, that is what happened when a high king of Ireland died. I don't have a solution for map painters who yearn to begin as tribal, but I think it would be interesting, especially if formation a tribal kingdom would only cost prestige. It would make tribals feel different than the feudal.
 

Almaron

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Is Ireland the primary example of where this happened? If so, rather than making it easier for vassals to break free upon a monarch's death, it could be worthwhile making a new system to represent the concept of 'High Kingdoms'...whoever's High King could hold the Kingdom-tier title of a region, but be the suzerain of the Petty Kingdoms rather than their direct overlord, with the player needing to centralise their state a bit first before they can start annexing them directly.