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Rubidium

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And why can't they solve the issue in 1915? They are operating closer to their bases and the Russians are much farther from their. If the Germans break through the Russian lines at any time they are automatically flank the Russians in Poland, therefore the situation is exactly as it was in 1914 (and the A-H Army was did the as dumbly as they could... just a bit of sanity and they can either a.) solve the issue with Serbia b.) fall back in good order to the Carpathians to wait for the reinforcements )
If Austria-Hungary looks to be collapsing and they don't have Tannenburg to make things better on the Eastern Front, you have a high likelihood of Romania and Italy (and maybe even Bulgaria, if they want to actually be on the winning side for a change) jumping in to grab what they can while they still can. Given time, the Austro-Hungarians might be able to stabilize their Russian front in the Carpathians, but can they handle that level of extension of the war? Admittedly, neither the Italians nor the Romanians covered themselves in glory when they did intervene, but here the Austrians are fighting on their own soil already, and the Germans have less flexibility to bail them out (especially if they want to even pretend to stick to the Schlieffen Plan, which they still see as their only reasonable hope for winning).

The Austro-Hungarian government was not particularly stable in the best of times; here it is facing disaster with enemies on its soil attacking from multiple directions, in a war it started.
 

JodelDiplom

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If Austria-Hungary looks to be collapsing and they don't have Tannenburg to make things better on the Eastern Front, you have a high likelihood of Romania and Italy (and maybe even Bulgaria, if they want to actually be on the winning side for a change) jumping in to grab what they can while they still can. Given time, the Austro-Hungarians might be able to stabilize their Russian front in the Carpathians, but can they handle that level of extension of the war? Admittedly, neither the Italians nor the Romanians covered themselves in glory when they did intervene, but here the Austrians are fighting on their own soil already, and the Germans have less flexibility to bail them out (especially if they want to even pretend to stick to the Schlieffen Plan, which they still see as their only reasonable hope for winning).

The Austro-Hungarian government was not particularly stable in the best of times; here it is facing disaster with enemies on its soil attacking from multiple directions, in a war it started.
None of them are going to enter the war in 1914. Their armies were still badly unprepared in 1915, by 1914 this was so much worse yet.
 

pithorr

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Look on the post Tannenberg strategic map:
EasternFront1914a.jpg

However, if the Germans lost at Tannenberg, they would have retreated behind Vistula river what would make their 9th army extremely exposed for the encirclement in Silesia and wetern part of Lesser Poland, especially after epic collapse of A-H's offensive.
 

Porkman

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If Austria-Hungary looks to be collapsing and they don't have Tannenburg to make things better on the Eastern Front, you have a high likelihood of Romania and Italy (and maybe even Bulgaria, if they want to actually be on the winning side for a change) jumping in to grab what they can while they still can. Given time, the Austro-Hungarians might be able to stabilize their Russian front in the Carpathians, but can they handle that level of extension of the war? Admittedly, neither the Italians nor the Romanians covered themselves in glory when they did intervene, but here the Austrians are fighting on their own soil already, and the Germans have less flexibility to bail them out (especially if they want to even pretend to stick to the Schlieffen Plan, which they still see as their only reasonable hope for winning).

The Austro-Hungarian government was not particularly stable in the best of times; here it is facing disaster with enemies on its soil attacking from multiple directions, in a war it started.

Watching the Great War on youtube week by week.... there are so many times where Austria was about to lose it all only for the Germans to arrive just in time to save the day.
None of them are going to enter the war in 1914. Their armies were still badly unprepared in 1915, by 1914 this was so much worse yet.

But the core result of tannenberg going Russia's way is still AH falling by the end of 1915. Which they would have had the Germans not bailed them out.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that the Russians winning in tannenberg would allow them to defeat Germany and end the war.

We're arguing that the Russians being in Prussia means that Austria loses.

The extra hand that germany gave during the third invasion of Serbia and the counteroffensive in Galicia would be gone. Without that extra hand, Austria falls very fast.
 

Henry IX

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The other significant impact of Tannenburg is related to the way mobilisation works. For a mass conscription army to function effectively you start with a smaller peace time army with too many officers and NCOs. Then when your drafts start coming in you 'fill out' your formations using your extra officers and NCOs to supply leadership. The Russians ruined the German timetable by invading much earlier than expected, partly due to the improving condition of railroads and administration during the first decade of the 20th century but partly by attacking with partially mobilised formations.

These formations had the cream of Russian officers, NCOs and current draftees. When they were virtually wiped out during the Battle of Tannenburg the Russians found themselves being forced to mobilise large forces with totally inadequate leadership and very green conscripts, weakening their whole army. In addition, the Russians were short of artillery for most of the war and the loss of virtually all of the artillery of two entire armies left them with a shortfall they couldn't make good until at least 1916.

If the Russians had won (or at least not suffered a major defeat) at Tannenburg they would have been far more of a threat to both the Germans and the Austrians with possibly far reaching consequences.
 

Prussian Havoc

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I was reading in another forum and it mentioned that Germany was close to become unable to persecute the war already in 1914 due to a lack of ammonia. And that got me thinking If the Great War ended already in 1914 or early in 1915 due to a German production collapse of munitions, what consequences would that have?

I know that some may think of "Yeah, less people would need to die!" which is true but I'm thinking about the lessons of revulsion for war and insight into how horrible war is which came from the four years of the Great War, and together with the Second World War caused Europe to abandon chavunistic nationalism, at least officially, for over half a century and the creation of the EU as a way to integrate and keep peace in Europe. Would that insight still have been won or would a shorter and less horrible war lead to more nationalistic chest-beating and politicians thinking that "War is a great way to solve conflicts"?

Eagerly awaiting ideas into this possible scenario.
And with such an early conclusion to hostilities, the US would never have become as involved as it did. Might this have served to reinforce Isolationist tendencies in the US? Thereby unhinging a major source of future support for Anglo Influence moving forward from 1914?
 

Gurkhal

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And with such an early conclusion to hostilities, the US would never have become as involved as it did. Might this have served to reinforce Isolationist tendencies in the US? Thereby unhinging a major source of future support for Anglo Influence moving forward from 1914?

Indeed, that would have a point of major significance. And if the US does not step up as Britain, to my knowledge, is steeping down, then who would fill that empty space?
 

JodelDiplom

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Indeed, that would have a point of major significance. And if the US does not step up as Britain, to my knowledge, is steeping down, then who would fill that empty space?
Great powers don't step down from global leadership voluntarily ;)

And the USA in no way stepped up to any sort of leadership after WW1. President Wilson did assume a leading role during the last year of the war and the Paris pace conferences but after he fell ill no one in Washington felt the USA needed to assume any sort of responsibility towards Europe or the New Order which Wilson had pushed to create.

The USA were the world's leading naval power after WW1, on par with Britain but obviously stronger in unrealized potential. They took a lead on negotiating arms control and continued a strong involvement in China but both of those were continuation of pre WW1 policy. In all likelihood they would very much have done that still even if they had stayed out of WW1.
 

Graf Zeppelin

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The USA were the world's leading naval power after WW1, on par with Britain but obviously stronger in unrealized potential..
Much smaller and weaker then the RN untill they geared up in ww2.

The worlds leading Naval power after WW1 till WW2 was Britain then you have a huge gap, then the US and close behind Japan, then another gap and then France, Italy another gap Germany and the Soviet Union.

The US got the lead in quality and quantity in 1944
 
Last edited:

Graf Zeppelin

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Eh, I was pretty sure that UK and US became roughly equal after Washington naval treaty
On paper and allowed tonnage yes . The US had also a massive fleet programme launched pre their war entry. Almost all US fleet carriers that seen acction in the war bar one(Shangri La) where already under construction before Pearl Harbor

Still untill ww2 Britain had by far the most powerfull navy in the world by tonnage and numbers.
 

Graf Zeppelin

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USN
DATE
7/1/31 7/1/32 7/1/33 7/1/34 4/1/35* 7/1/36 9/1/37*
BATTLESHIPS
12(3rc) 11(4rc) 11(4rc) 14(1rc) 15 15 15
CARRIERS, FLEET 3 3 3 4 4 4 3@
CARRIERS, ESCORT - - - - - - -
CRUISERS 20 19 20 24 25 26 27
DESTROYERS 87^ 102 101 102^^ 104 106 111
FRIGATES - - - - - - -
SUBMARINES 56 55 55 54 52 49 52
MINE WARFARE 33 33 26 26 26 26 30
PATROL 27(1rc) 24 26 24 23 23 22
AUXILIARY 69 65 68 71 71 73 75
RIGID AIRSHIPS 1 1 1 1 - - -
SURFACE WARSHIPS 119 132 132 140 144 147 153
TOTAL ACTIVE 308 (4rc) 313 (4rc) 311 (4rc) 320 (1rc) 320 322 335



UK in the 30s after washington naval treaty

15 battleships and battlecruisers,
7 aircraft carriers,
66 cruisers,
164 destroyers
66 submarines


You see the closer we get to the war the closer the US navy gets but that makes them not on par with the British after ww1
Also the British fleet was on average more modern, especialy capital ships but destroyers also. (Carriers are to different to compare)

Last but not least the British fleet was also more experienced, had overall better doctrines (Especially launch procedures but there Japan had the edge actually not cap procedures of course)
 
Last edited:

Semper Victor

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Exactly, but the general expectation of this campaign was 'to quickly take Paris, happy end'. Paris taken, enemy army destroyed in one blow.

But the German victory in Battle of the Marne means actually just taking more French territory. This doesn't mean the end of otherwise numerous and still strong French Army. The Germans are bogged around Verdun and their lines can only stretch so far without exposing their flanks.
Certainly the bloodshed nearby Paris would have been a with significant impact, but it might have taken one or two more blows against Joffre to force him to throw towel.

Would be Germans after victory at Marne still able in 1914 to deliver such blows? Or the growingly grimdark campaign would continue well at least to another year? Schlieffen Plan therefore fails in any case, because actually French themselves must decide it.

A German victory at the Marne was highly improbable and it's usure if it would have changed anything at all in the western front at that point. This was the strategical situation of the western front when the battle began:

battle_of_the_marne.jpg


The battle of the Marne saw the German I and II Armies (from west to east, led respectively by Alexander von Kluck and Karl von Bülow) being attacked and driven back by (from east to west) the French Ninth Army (commanded by Ferdinand Foch), the French Fifth Army (commanded by Louis Franchet d'Esperèy), the BEf (commanded by Sir John French) and the French Sixth Army (commanded by Michel-Joseph Maunoury) which was further supported by the Paris garrison under the command of general Joseph Galliéni.

Just a cursory look at the map will reveal the dificulty of the German situation: Moltke had ordered his right flank (the crucial part of the offensive force in the so-called Schlieffen Plan, the "hammer") to turn south-west and to march diagonally in front of Paris (which lay directly to the west of the German I Army right flank) believing that:
  • Either Paris was not garrisoned or that its garrison would be too weak or unwilling to attack the German right flank.
  • That all the French field armies were located to the south and southeast being engaged in combat with the remaining German armies and so that the German I Army would effectively be able to envelop their exposed left flank and either attack them in the flank and rearguard or force them to a general retreat all the way to the Jura and the Swiss border.
Neither of these two assumptions was true. Joffre had been able to shift forces from the center and east to his left flank, and he'd also been able to stop the British from retreating to the Channel ports after the battle of Mons. The garrison of Paris had been reinforced by the new Sixth Army (formed with colonial forces, reservists and some divisions moved by rail to Paris from the Third Army in Lorraine). In fact, by advancing directly south in front of Paris, Moltke, Kluck and Bülow were sticking their heads into a trap, because Kluck's right flank was wide open and exposed to attack.

Even if Kluck and Bülow had managed to cooperate without allowing a gap to open between their armies, and Kluck had repulsed the attacks of Maunoury's Sixth Army (which suffered massive losses attacking Kluck's army), there still remained the question that the French would have been able to retreat behind the massive ring of forts that surrounded Paris (and which, with a commander like Galliéni would have been probably defended vigorously), and behind the Seine, and that if the Germans followed they risked to be attacked by the French on their right flank again, unless they left strong forces screening Paris (and their increasingly longer and exposed right flank).

The original draft of the so-called Schlieffen Plan called for an envelopement of the French army with the German right wing walking along the Channel coast, and crossing the Seine to the northwest of Paris, downriver from the city. This needed many more troops than the Germans had either in 1905 or in 1914 (or that they would have been able to gather in any conceivable scenario)
 
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Henry IX

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The original draft of the so-called Schlieffen Plan called for an envelopement of the French army with the German right wing walking along the Channel coast, and crossing the Seine to the northwest of Paris, downriver from the city. This needed many more troops than the Germans had either in 1905 or in 1914 (or that they would have been able to gather in any conceivable scenario)

The groupthink of the General Staff was extraordinary. They push for a war, with only one plan of how to fight it, knowing that their one plan is beyond their resources.
 

bz249

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The groupthink of the General Staff was extraordinary. They push for a war, with only one plan of how to fight it, knowing that their one plan is beyond their resources.

Though the German General Staff did it wrong having one bad plan and stick to it would have been better, than having one bad plan and modify it on the flight for a worse (like not retreating at Alsace or sending the reserves to East Prussia).
But at the end they could never hope to match the exploits of Conrad, who just out of precaution created a series of bad plans and in the agony of choice he managed to combine the worst apects of each individual bad plan.
 

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The groupthink of the General Staff was extraordinary. They push for a war, with only one plan of how to fight it, knowing that their one plan is beyond their resources.

There's been a lot of polemics about the "Schlieffen Plan", with some historians even questioning its very existence. The historical archives of the OHL were lost during WW2 in an aerial bombing of Potsdam, and so things will be always open to speculation in this respect. What seems quite clear and established beyond reasonable doubt is that what Count von Schlieffen left to his successor Moltke was not a proper plan, but a "Denkschrift", simply a handwritten memoir which is unclear if Schlieffen intended as a serious guide for a future war plan to be developed and possibly implemented by his successor, or merely as an intellectual exercise. It's quite possible that this was Schlieffen's intention, because in 1905 the disparity in resources between reality and plan was even higher than in 1914. The French intelligence services actually obtained a copy of this "Denkschrift" in 1906 (they had a mole in the OHL), and the French military discarded it as inviable, and as (quite rightly) a theoretical exercise in military planning.

But, beyond the issue of the wide gap between the forces envisioned for the attack and what the German army really could muster, the plan was doomed to failure by the very nature of war in 1914: the invading German army would have to move by foot, while the French army could rely on internal rail lines to move its forces quickly from one part of the front to another; which is what Joffre did before the battle of the Marne. This is what would happen time and again during the war; and this problem would not be solved until the dawn of motorized warfare during the Second World War. In this respect, the German army arrived at the Marne with its lines of supply stretched to the limit, having suffered massive losses in horses and with shortages in its ammunition supply, which was an important part in the German decision to retreat at the Marne.
 
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Vlad_Dracul1989

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I always understood, actually, that 'Schlieffen Plan' was never precise blueprint, because it would be ridiculous - rather a set of general directives how to do stuff.

Why it's so important to debate if it was or wasn't a 'blueprint'? Use the succesful Manstein Plan in comparison: how many times it was rewritten and how many 'little parts' changed during real battles? It was also just a general plan how to do it - with Allies so pathetic in many aspects, probably any version of Manstein Plan would do the job.

Every plan, for that matter, is 'intellectual exercise'. Not every plan is literally on paper, either, btw.
 
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Geriander

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There's been a lot of polemics about the "Schlieffen Plan", with some historians even questioning its very existence. The historical archives of the OHL were lost during WW2 in an aerial bombing of Potsdam, and so things will be always open to speculation in this respect. What seems quite clear and established beyond reasonable doubt is that what Count von Schlieffen left to his successor Moltke was not a proper plan, but a "Denkschrift", simply a handwritten memoir which is unclear if Schlieffen intended as a serious guide for a future war plan to be developed and possibly implemented by his successor, or merely as an intellectual exercise. It's quite possible that this was Schlieffen's intention, because in 1905 the disparity in resources between reality and plan was even higher than in 1914. The French intelligence services actually obtained a copy of this "Denkschrift" in 1906 (they had a mole in the OHL), and the French military discarded it as inviable, and as (quite rightly) a theoretical exercise in military planning.

But, beyond the issue of the wide gap between the forces envisioned for the attack and what the German army really could muster, the plan was doomed to failure by the very nature of war in 1914: the invading German army would have to move by foot, while the French army could rely on internal rail lines to move its forces quickly from one part of the front to another; which is what Joffre did before the battle of the Marne. This is what would happen time and again during the war; and this problem would not be solved until the dawn of motorized warfare during the Second World War. In this respect, the German army arrived at the Marne with its lines of supply stretched to the limit, having suffered massive losses in horses and with shortages in its ammunition supply, which was an important part in the German decision to retreat at the Marne.

So Schlieffen's last words were probably not "keep the right wing strong"? I loved that myth.
 

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French plan XVII didn't work out that well either. Still the French adapted when it became necessary.
 

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French plan XVII didn't work out that well either. Still the French adapted when it became necessary.

The French Plan XVII was probably a more flexible plan than whatever the OHL had planned. It was more of a plan for the concentration of French troops near the eastern border than an actual campaign plan, leaving the question of the actual operations to be conducted totally open, according to the will of the French High Command. It actually allowed the French to either react to a German attack through Belgium and Luxemburg or to a German offensive from Alsace and Lorraine. The First and Second Armies were deployed in front of the German border and were subsequently ordered by Joffre to attack into Alsace and Lorraine, while the Third Army stood in a defensive position in front of the German fortress of Metz, the Fourth Army remained as a reserve in the Argonne area, and the Fifth Army was placed on a wide front along the southern Belgian border, in case that the Germans violated Belgian neutrality.

This was quite a prudent deployment, which engaged only two of France’s five field armies in the attack into German territory, while the Fifth Army stood directly across a German attack through Belgium, and more importantly the French Third and Fourth Armies would’ve been well placed to attack against the “hinge" of the German "revolving door" maneuver if they attempted to implement the Schlieffen Plan. Also, several scattered fortifications and Territorial units helped cover the area behind tthe Fifth Army.

Where the French High Command failed was in two key aspects, one of a strategic nature and the other of general army organization and training:
  • First, the French failed to realize the huge amounts of. men that the Germans would be able to deploy, and their combat effectiveness. The German peacetime army was smaller than France’s, and the French generals held reservists in their army in contempt, and extended that contempt to German reservists too. So, it came as an utter surprise to them the fact that the German divisions in 1914 combined active and reserve regiments into an effective fighting force, putting into the field an army that was considerably larger than what the French expected, and in many aspects better prepared for a modern war, even if it contained many reservists.
  • Second, French divisions were lacking in firepower, especially in middle and heavy artillery, a weapon that would show itself to be key in the new war from the first day. The lack of long range artillery forced the French forces to fight under constant German artillery fire that the French excellent soixante-quinze light guns were unable to return. This key weakness was the most important reason behind the heavy French losses in all the encounters against the Germans in August and September of 1914.
 
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