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blue emu

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The Wiki recommends that the German player should attack Luxembourg as early as possible, in order to incorporate that 5 IC core province into the Reich... even if no early war is intended.

I have always been very sceptical of this advice, for a number of reasons:

1) The violated French GoI on Luxembourg will give them a two-point slider shift to Interventionism, which reduces their Consumer Goods demand and... in effect... gives them more disposable ICs with which to prepare for the coming war. It also reduces their Belligerence DoW threshold (by 41%, from 49 points to 29), reduces their DoW Dissent cost (by the same margin, from 5.6% to 3.3%) and reduces the costs of their Diplomatic activities.

2) The extension of the German front into Luxembourg will require a fairly strong garrison, since it is adjacent to the French Maginot Line positions in Metz and Strasbourg. Since the security of the German Panzer thrust into northern France would be jeapordized by a fall-back defense in this area... not to mention the economic results of allowing the French to push into the Ruhr valley... a static defense is more or less required. The cost of the defending units must be allowed for in calculating the German "profit margin" in taking Luxembourg early.

3) In the early game, the German Interventionism slider is more or less centered, resulting in a high Dissent hit (+5.6%) on any DoW. This Dissent must then be eliminated by overproducing Consumer Goods... delaying Factory production and thus eroding any German IC profits gained from the conquest of Luxembourg.

4) The extra German belligerence from the DoW and annexation will compromise trade agreements (as will the resulting Relations hit on annexation)... perhaps requiring more ICs to be spent on producing Supplies for export in order to maintain imports at the desired level.

5) A very real danger exists that the extra belligerence, combined with the 2-point French slider shift to Interventionism and the free French casus belli will result in an early French DoW against Germany... quite possibly preventing them from gaining all of their scripted cores, which would cost Germany far more ICs (in lost cores) than they gained by taking Luxembourg. After annexing Luxembourg, the German belligerence will already be 16 points... the Anschluss of Austria may well push them over the DoW line.

Up until now, I have always avoided any premature move against Luxembourg, since I felt that the extra ICs gained were not proper compensation for this formidable array of drawbacks. Recently, I have tried an early conquest of Luxembourg... just as an experiment... and I have made a surprising discovery, which casts further doubt on the whole idea of grabbing this core early:

There are no extra ICs!

Germany gains effectively nothing by taking Luxembourg early.

My results:

An early Dow against Luxembourg (in my game, January 19th, 1936) gives Germany +5.6% Dissent... and requires a full focus on Consumer Goods for about 32 days in order to eliminate the Dissent. This costs Germany about 3200 IC-days... not counting the normal day-to-day allocation of Consumer Goods.

By diverting all ICs to Consumer Goods in order to remove the Dissent, this will also delay all three runs of Factory builds (1936, '37 and '38) by 32 days each... including the additional Factories that would have been built using these newly constructed ICs. This delay costs Germany an additional 2016 IC-days... pro-rated to 1613 IC-days after deducting the share that would have normally gone to additional day-to-day Consumer Goods.

These two deductions alone will soak up all of the IC-day "profits" obtained by Luxembourg's conquest, from January 1936 right through to May of 1939 (!), by which time you could have attacked Luxembourg ANYWAY without ever risking your event-driven cores... the "End of Czecheslovakia" event in March 1939 is the last signifigant addition to Germany's national cores, since the Polish cores only really count for Partisan control... very little IC or Resources are involved.

Note that the IC-day (and Manpower) cost of the German Luxembourg defenders has not even been included in this calculation. Nor has the fact that the violation of France's GoI (and the resulting 2-point Interventionism slider shift) increases France's disposable ICs by +9% for three and a half years, while giving Germany virtually nothing in return.

It look to me that an early attack on Luxembourg runs great risks, for absolutely no pay-off. Germany gains nothing at all by doing this.

Comments?
 
Wasn't the luxemborg advice written for HoI 2 when the negatives are essentially not there? I haven't actually played it, but that was my impression anyways.

As far as taking it in DD, I think, if one even spends a few moments assessing early conquest possiblities, there is little to accomplish that won't bring problems down on your head, except maybe for warring in spain, but your position makes that a bit hard to fully accomplish, I think?
 
orwell said:
Wasn't the luxemborg advice written for HoI 2 when the negatives are essentially not there? I haven't actually played it, but that was my impression anyways.
The two negatives that I've calculated (Dissent reduction and delayed Factory builds) were already there in HOI-2... and have not been signifigantly changed in Doomsday.

There are also a whole host of drawbacks that I didn't bother to include; knock-on effects from the 32-day delay in bringing the new Factories on-line... such as lowered Energy-to-Oil conversion and lessened cash income. Most of those effects were already present in HOI-2.
 
blue emu said:
The two negatives that I've calculated (Dissent reduction and delayed Factory builds) were already there in HOI-2... and have not been signifigantly changed in Doomsday.

There are also a whole host of drawbacks that I didn't bother to include; knock-on effects from the 32-day delay in bringing the new Factories on-line... such as lowered Energy-to-Oil conversion and lessened cash income. Most of those effects were already present in HOI-2.

lol you should just take over Hoi2 Wiki. Im not being sarcastic either, you have more information than they could ever hope to have.
 
talin said:
It is fixed.
Thanks... although if someone else (Kanitatlan?) posts to prove my calculation wrong, it may have to be re-fixed.

I see no objection to taking Luxembourg after the "Memel" event in April 1939... but there is no particular advantage to doing so, either.
 
blue emu said:
Thanks... although if someone else (Kanitatlan?) posts to prove my calculation wrong, it may have to be re-fixed.

Theoretically Germany could use its first slider move to increase its interventionsm by 1 and therefore reducing the dissent hit through the DOW. I think that such a move would be less valuable than the "standard" opening to central planning since interventionsm will be maxed anyhow but it is possible.

Additionally if you are planning to coup France anyhow in your game its benefits won't matter as a successful coup turns them into Vichy. Achieving this around the time when your belligerence starts to rise (mid 38) is very much possible.

blue emu said:
I see no objection to taking Luxembourg after the "Memel" event in April 1939... but there is no particular advantage to doing so, either.

It would give you another province opposite the Maginot Line and therefore I don't see advantage in doing that, especially as the pre-war IC gain is so small. I'd rather have them as a neutral country and annex it during the Maginot Line clean-up operations.
 
orwell said:
As far as taking it in DD, I think, if one even spends a few moments assessing early conquest possiblities, there is little to accomplish that won't bring problems down on your head...
As Germany, you can make early conquests of Belgium, France and the UK without much difficulty. If you're going to get dissent for a DOW, it's best to get a big payoff from the conquest, for the reasons that Emu gives.

As for Luxemburg, I've heard people say that its best to let them accumulate large stockpiles before annexing them. I don't know what the numbers are like though.

Andrew
 
Good to know... I've never been attacked by the allies (only conquered and annexed L. two times) in 1936. Therefore I haven't thought about the consqeuens in French (more intervensionsm, more IC, etc).

But I have to questions for you, blue Emu or anyone else, how do you calculate IC-days?

And isn't Luxemburg very rare-rich? I mean, you probably save a good amount the next couple of years by not have to trade for those with expensive supplies or energy...

I cant seem to remeber excaktley how much rare it is, but isn't pretty much?

But as you pointed out, the pro's arent near as good as how bad the con's are.

No more invanding Luxembourg.
 
TeutonburgerW said:
But I have to questions for you, blue Emu or anyone else, how do you calculate IC-days?

IC-days = (daily IC cost) * (build time in days)
so building IC costs 5 IC * 360 days = 1800 IC-days without considering the effect of sliders.

It's the only at least reasonably accurate way of calculating cost and effectiveness of different builds. Of course it doesn't count how effective IC-days are in taking into account the need for supplying units built early etc but it's a good indicator. Never look up on just the daily cost of unit when thinking if it's a effective use of IC; buildtime must always be factored in.
 
Gen. Skobelev said:
IC-days = (daily IC cost) * (build time in days)
so building IC costs 5 IC * 360 days = 1800 IC-days without considering the effect of sliders.

It's the only at least reasonably accurate way of calculating cost and effectiveness of different builds. Of course it doesn't count how effective IC-days are in taking into account the need for supplying units built early etc but it's a good indicator. Never look up on just the daily cost of unit when thinking if it's a effective use of IC; buildtime must always be factored in.

:eek:o

Wasn't to hard figuring out. Thanks!

But how do you when you want to calculate the costs of a certain action, like getting 3% dissent and I've devoted precisly what I need to CG to be in "white" (=0.0 increase/decrease / day)

If i devote like say 5 extra IC and get 0.03 every day, then it takes 100 days.

100 (days) * 5 (the extra amount of IC devoted to CG) = 500 ic-days?

Is it correct counted?
 
TeutonburgerW said:
:eek:o

Wasn't to hard figuring out. Thanks!

But how do you when you want to calculate the costs of a certain action, like getting 3% dissent and I've devoted precisly what I need to CG to be in "white" (=0.0 increase/decrease / day)

If i devote like say 5 extra IC and get 0.03 every day, then it takes 100 days.

100 (days) * 5 (the extra amount of IC devoted to CG) = 500 ic-days?

Is it correct counted?

As far as counting only the costs of reducing the dissent, you're correct. But with dissent you must also take into account the amount of lost IC due dissent. So you'd need the 500 IC-days to get rid of dissent, but you would also lose some IC every single day dissent is above 0. That's one of the reasons why getting rid of dissent as soon as possible is very important. Negative combat modifier, extra load on TC due increased partisan activity and lesser IC also strongly suggest getting rid of dissent as fast as you can.
 
I have found out the hard way that taking Luxemburg early is counter-productive and Blue Emu is right.

This could of course be my own problem: I almost always intervene in the Spanish Civil War as Gerry. Building six transports and some convoys/escorts for that war delays my factory production by long enough, I think. Too bad I can't trade the Baltiche Flotte, the submarines and the Luftwaffe for them with someone... (USA?) :D

As for the problem above:

If you get rid of that dissent in 100 days it means you start with 3 dissent, and for the duration of your investment of 5 extra ic in CG you will have the equivalent of 100 days of 1.5 dissent (linear descent from 3 to 0). That means you lose 1.5% of your IC for 100 days. For human played germany in 1936, that means cca. 1.7 IC times 100 days = 170 IC days.

So your total loss is 670 IC days.

I proudly present my first ever IC day calculation :cool:
 
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can take them feb 1938. before austria event and then u get -10 or -5 dissent so u dont have to work it off.

i always play on vh/f daim and take luxemburg or fight in spain almost always result in early dow from ally. very risky and not good.
 
Gen. Skobelev said:
As far as counting only the costs of reducing the dissent, you're correct. But with dissent you must also take into account the amount of lost IC due dissent. So you'd need the 500 IC-days to get rid of dissent, but you would also lose some IC every single day dissent is above 0. That's one of the reasons why getting rid of dissent as soon as possible is very important. Negative combat modifier, extra load on TC due increased partisan activity and lesser IC also strongly suggest getting rid of dissent as fast as you can.

Another day, another knowledge. Thanks!

I have found out the hard way that taking Luxemburg early is counter-productive and Blue Emu is right.

This could of course be my own problem: I almost always intervene in the Spanish Civil War as Gerry. Building six transports and some convoys/escorts for that war delays my factory production by long enough, I think. Too bad I can't trade the Baltiche Flotte, the submarines and the Luftwaffe for them with someone... (USA?)

As for the problem above:

If you get rid of that dissent in 100 days it means you start with 3 dissent, and for the duration of your investment of 5 extra ic in CG you will have the equivalent of 100 days of 1.5 dissent (linear descent from 3 to 0). That means you lose 1.5% of your IC for 100 days. For human played germany in 1936, that means cca. 1.7 IC times 100 days = 170 IC days.

So your total loss is 670 IC days.

I proudly present my first ever IC day calculation

And a very good one. Even I understood. Thank to you as well.
 
jurslla said:
can take them feb 1938. before austria event and then u get -10 or -5 dissent so u dont have to work it off.

This can bring in another question: is there an "optimum" time to take LUX before sept. '39?

Germany gets events that increase interventionism so lowering the dissent hit for DOWing cute little states in the middle of the europe, if my memory is not bad. Is there a time at which one actually gains some IC days form annexing LUX instead of losing them?

Since I hate browsing in the event files and I am a lazy guy, I will leave the answer to someone more strong-willed...
 
If you are ready, take them the day after you split Czechoslovakia. But there is a small hick: if France does declare war, you won't get the polish cores (which are almost useless anyway). If not, you will have raised a very small amount of dissent for nothing, unless by then your sliders are moved correctly. Considering you will take them in early '40 and that by now you will only get 1.1 or 2.2 dissent, there is a small profit.
 
On the topic of calculating IC days, especially for dissent reduction, there are some other factors to take into account.

I find that the round off error between the display showing a daily reduction of .01 or .02 etc. is very significant. Any calculation multiplying out using that number is likely to be off by several percent.

Also, in situations where you need to reduce dissent, the extra CGs also give you extra cash. Depending on which country you are playing, this can sometimes be a useful bonus that offsets much of the IC cost.
 
Dalwin said:
Also, in situations where you need to reduce dissent, the extra CGs also give you extra cash. Depending on which country you are playing, this can sometimes be a useful bonus that offsets much of the IC cost.
Not sure how much this counts, since you could always raise this extra cash by over-funding CGs anyway, even with zero Dissent.

Over-funding CGs is, of course, the least efficient way of raising cash... building extra Supplies and trading them for cash is about eight times more efficient.
 
blue emu said:
Not sure how much this counts, since you could always raise this extra cash by over-funding CGs anyway, even with zero Dissent.

Over-funding CGs is, of course, the least efficient way of raising cash... building extra Supplies and trading them for cash is about eight times more efficient.

Sure, trading is much more efficient way to get cash. Dissent reduction is mandatory move, for example SU does get nice pile of money when taking down dissent in the beginning of GC and the dissent from purges, getting extra money from CG is unintended side effect. The dissent reduction is the goal, not making money. You're right on that the money production through CG should not count as it's either side effect (in reducing dissent) or ineffective wau (in the goal of making money).