Early, Critical Feedback, From RockPaperShotgun

[HF22]

Some early, quite critical feedback, from RockPaperShotgun (from about 43:18 in the podcast) - https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/04/19/podcast-being-a-critic-makes-games-better-and-worse/

The reviewer was quite exciting about the game before playing, but found the tutorial missions and NPC tutorial text long, boring and uninformative. In fact, his views reflect lots of comments here about the streams to date, that the early stuff doesn't actually teach new players anything (despite their being quite a lot to learn).

It does shows some of the drawbacks of trying to impose tutorial text via RPG elements, rather than providing a mech-pedia or wiki style thing for when people want to refer to it.

 

[Chaon]

Some early, quite critical feedback, from RockPaperShotgun (from about 43:18 in the podcast) - https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/04/19/podcast-being-a-critic-makes-games-better-and-worse/

The reviewer was quite exciting about the game before playing, but found the tutorial missions and NPC tutorial text long, boring and uninformative. In fact, his views reflect lots of comments here about the streams to date, that the early stuff doesn't actually teach new players anything (despite their being quite a lot to learn).

It does shows some of the drawbacks of trying to impose tutorial text via RPG elements, rather than providing a mech-pedia or wiki style thing for when people want to refer to it.

Hmmmm, the tutorial part teaches the absolute basics of how to move and fire and why heat management is important. What else should it do?

The escort Lady Arano mission is an introduction into combat against, mechs, vehicles and turrets.

I think some people simply want their hands held all the way through the game with it showing them exactly where the best place to move and what to fire.

And if you just quickly click through the NPC text messages to get to the action, of course you are going to find the going harder.

 

[Lunatic Pathos]

It sounds more like they were saying they did read the tutorial, it was just too long and boring, which I get to some extent. I want to run a couple campaigns but I'm not looking forward to playing the tutorial multiple times.

 

[Agent.0.Fortune]

I can't say he is wrong, mostly because I don't have the damn game yet.
On the one-hand, you can lead a horse to water... but if he can't figure how use a trough, he is going to die of thirst.
But at least after giving a poor review he said he was going to continue playing, says something.

 

[HF22]

It sounds more like they were saying they did read the tutorial, it was just too long and boring, which I get to since extent. I want to run a couple campaigns but I'm not looking forward to playing the tutorial multiple times.

Yes, I think the problem is a lack of optionality.

The guy knows he needs tutorial information, but I suspect it would feel better if you could dip in & out of it as desired, rather than have it forced on you for the first several hours of the game.

 

[Camicon Dachass]

Hmmmm, the tutorial part teaches the absolute basics of how to move and fire and why heat management is important. What else should it do?

The escort Lady Arano mission is an introduction into combat against, mechs, vehicles and turrets.

I think some people simply want their hands held all the way through the game with it showing them exactly where the best place to move and what to fire. And if you just quickly click through the NPC text messages to get to the action, of course you are going to find the going harder.

I agree.

Really now, how long would a tutorial mission need to be to cover everything there is to know about the combat mechanics? And how much of that would need to be scripted, in order to show exactly what needed to be shown? It would end up being a four hour long cutscene. And that wouldn't even touch on all of the different economy sim and 'Mech Bay mechanics that people are going to need to learn.

The fact of the matter is, if you go poking through the tutorial conversation options once you're out of the first two missions, all of the basic information you need is there and readily available. That someone can't be arsed to bother reading it is not a failing of HBS when it comes to a game that is as mechanically complex as BATTLETECH. People keep trying to approach it like it's XCOM, where a 20min scripted tutorial is enough to teach you all of the combat mechanics you need to beat the game, and they are wrong to. Keep in mind, what we're playing has come from a die-rolling, chart-heavy table top game; yeah, the computer is able to do all the die rolling for us now, but all of the underlying systems that you need to understand in order to make informed decisions are as complex as they ever were.

 

[Jade_Rook]

He did say that he really enjoyed the missions and the combat. He just seemed a little stuck on the tutorials. I think a lot of the tutorials are just in conversations with the crew and those should be fairly easily skipped or avoided (I think, obviously haven't played it yet). It may be that he didn't like the text heavy nature of those tutorials.

EDIT: I haven't watched the streams, so my knowledge on the tutorials is limited. They showed a little bit about them in one of the Paradox streams about the campaign.

 

[Zak DelVillar]

I am kind of aghast at this... I mean sure, no one likes playing the exact same story multiple times but this is all new to the people play testing it. What you are essentially saying here is, "damn the story! full action ahead!!" Which I simply don't agree with. The story is the point of Battletech, the lore is what make this game so rich and has kept the fan's attention even through decades of decline and abandonment. The story elements of this game are fantastic so far, Lady Arano, the why of the story, it's moving and wonderful.

I can't imagine what it is that they want to see, I mean as stated above they go over the basics of combat. The game's challenge is based on learning to outwit the computer and out position/shoot your enemy. What else could they show you without just playing the game for you? I think the mech bay and mercenary commander sections of the game could use a bit more directed instruction, I can concede to that point, but all the info is there you just have to interact with the game to find it. When did playing a game to find out how it works become an invalid way to teach players to play a game? When did the Gerber baby burping sessions become the rule of the day? Just sayin, maybe you should play the game (which is designed to be replay-able and long) for more than a day, or even a week, to decide if you like it or not.

I don't know, I am starting to feel like an old man on a soap box but all these people who critique for a living, the people who judge other's work without producing anything meaningful in their own right are the problem. It is why I don't read reviews or watch the news. If all you're going to do is point to all the perceived problems, which I don't even agree are problems, without helping fix them in any meaningful way then I don't have time to waste on you. Just my two cents on the issue.

 

[pmaura]

Isnt there a manual for the game

 

[spacemoose]

The first 3 or 4 beta matches I played, I royally sucked. But it was just a flesh wound, and I got better. You can't be the master from the first mission--practice, as AI would say.

 

[spacemoose]

Isnt there a manual for the game

Some forum contributors have put together some manuals, don't know if there is anything official yet.

 

[Wissenschaft]

The tutorial leaves out a lot of details, a lot of which is addressed in Eck's combat guide. But adding all that in would mean more text for this reviewer to read and he would probably dislike it even more. And if it was added to a wiki you could access at will, I'm sure someone would complain about having to search a wiki. Some people just hate reading.

Battltech is a system thats rather complicated. some explanation has to be given. The tutorial isn't even that long. How impatient can you be?

 

[KnightCole]

Whatever happened to just trying to figure it out on your own?

Alot of games dont have tutorials that explain every little thing about the game. MOST tutorials in games are basically: This is the name of the game, this is how you move, this is how you shoot, this is how you save, and maybe a few minor little things like how to activate abilities, the rest is up to the player to learn and ask about in game.

Sure, this game has alot to learn, so learn it. Game cant hold ur hand the whole way.

 

[Wissenschaft]

The Dark Souls school of thought on tutorials. Just explain the basic controls and throw the players into the deep end. That does seem to be the philosophy battletech is using.

I'm a crazy person who studies how to effectively play games before I even get a game. What can I say, I'm totally one of those spreadsheet nerds. lol So a tutorial that explains so little makes me twitchy. I cant help it.

 

[Holy.Death]

Hmmmm, the tutorial part teaches the absolute basics of how to move and fire and why heat management is important. What else should it do?

The engagement ranges? The ability to see % chances before committing to move? An explanation on how the initiative system works? Movement vs maneuverability ("the more you move, the less you can turn")? The ability to select where you can put your mech when going for a melee action? The ability to highlight specific enemy parts (which makes it possible to judge the potential damage you need in order to blow it up)? More in-depth explanation on ejection?

Here is the whole thread on how weak this tutorial is:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/battletechs-tutorial-weaknesses.1087420/

I'd rather not have the tutorial they came up with, because they aren't really telling player anything important. It's just a waste of time each time you want to create a new mercenary company. Frostpunk did much better job at making the in-game tutorial.

 

[President Jyrgunkarrd]

Hmmmm, the tutorial part teaches the absolute basics of how to move and fire and why heat management is important. What else should it do?

The escort Lady Arano mission is an introduction into combat against, mechs, vehicles and turrets.

I think some people simply want their hands held all the way through the game with it showing them exactly where the best place to move and what to fire.

And if you just quickly click through the NPC text messages to get to the action, of course you are going to find the going harder.

...No, it actually doesn't teach you any of those things. It doesn't break down how heat works (in fact, it completely misrepresents how heat works when vaguely telling the player that there is a thing called 'heat' and somehow it matters during the tutorial), it doesn't break down how damage works (and the UI is completely misleading about how it works, which has confused every streamer who wasn't already educated on the matter), it doesn't inform the player of their movement options beyond vaguely suggesting that there are 3 options and then immediately taking away the JJs from the teaching segment (horrible decision, IMHO) and when we get to the component of the tutorial where we face variety of enemies they all have such poor armor that you're basically 1-shotting them which teaches nothing.

Y'know why the old games didn't need tutorials and you could figure them out intuitively? Because there were like 2 buttons on a controller and every game was either a scrolling platformer or a scrolling shooter of some variety. Them good ol' days though, mirite?


People are right to criticize this game, which is supposedly to be introducing new players to BattleTech, for having such a piss-poor tutorial.

 

[Lunatic Pathos]

I think it boils down to, "gamers don't like to read." I quit watching one stream when the streamer declared his hatred of reading. This is not a game for the illiterate. And yeah, you have to actually look around the screen and see what's there. The UI is not hard, you just have to not ignore it. And yeah gamers don't read manuals anymore.

It is sad.

 

[Pointyearedgit]

The tutorial mission isn’t that long if you skip the dialogue and most of the NPC text tutorial is optional and labelled. *shrug* This just seems like something you would see standard in an RPG game as a starter mission. It would be nice if the game linked out to a wiki or encyclopedia like Total War titles do, but this is a general thing that a lot of Paradox titles could use tbh.

 

[Wissenschaft]

I think it boils down to, "gamers don't like to read." I quit watching one stream when the streamer declared his hatred of reading. This is not a game for the illiterate. And yeah, you have to actually look around the screen and see what's there. The UI is not hard, you just have to not ignore it. And yeah gamers don't read manuals anymore.

It is sad.

Yup, this mentality is a big reason the Dark Souls games are consider very hard games. In truth they are rather easy if you are willing to play at a slow methodical pace. Which goes against the grain of most modern games.​

 

[Lunatic Pathos]

I agree that the tutorial is not great, btw, I just don't think the solution is to greatly expand it. Encourage experimentation and observation. Provide tooltips and a wiki.