Early Access for Modders

[SkiRich]

So with every new update from Co and Paradox on Cities Skylines, a bunch of mods break. Some modders are really really quick to put out a fix, some, not so much, but at least they work on it and let their subscribers know something is coming. Some modders are absent, and the mod will cease operating.

The net effect, folks stop playing your game because without some of these mods, they are not interested. I really don't know the number of subscribers that use mods, but I venture to say these are the folks that truly enjoy the game to the point they take extra effort to improve it themselves.

So for the next few days, I along with hundreds of thousands of folks cannot play your newly released version of the game. Or buy it. I for one will not buy an update until all mods I use are working. If they stop working, I'm leaving the game. Plain vanilla is boring.

So my question ...

Why cant Paradox and CO create an early access program for verified owners of the popular and essential mods so they can go and modify/update their mods for the general public before the patch breaks and ruins gameplay for thousands of people. You know all the major software companies do this, why not Co and Paradox?

Lets be very clear here. CO and Paradox allow for and encourage Modding, therefore an excuse that the base vanilla game works and you wash your hands of mods post patch, is unacceptable. You know there are subscribers out there using mods, yet don't plan for helping them out prior to patch release. Unacceptable business model. Please fix.

 

[slornie]

They did trial a modder's beta a while ago, which I think led to a special "early access" area for selected mod creators. Thought there was a more recent thread about that but I can't find it so I could just be imagining things!

 

[metacritical]

Why cant Paradox and CO create an early access program for verified owners of the popular and essential mods

they do, but don't let your ignorance of facts get in the way of your ranting

 

[SkiRich]

they do, but don't let your ignorance of facts get in the way of your ranting

You got some proof? Because all I see on the workshop today is broken essential mods and authors saysing they need to wait like everybody else for Oct 19th.. Don't let the facts get in the way of your opinion.

 

[metacritical]

ever thought that the modders can't release their mods before the release date as the new code will not work with the old patch version?

 

[SkiRich]

Evidently there is a scheduling ability to release mods as a few essential mods that broke but are now repaired like Traffic Manager says their update will be available at 8PM UTC. So if that is the case, they could have already been available from the start. After using this product and being a mod junkie from inception I can say that there are 5 to 6 authors that should have direct inside access to the early release, yet their products broke this morning just like some other minor mods. Clearly they are out of the loop and should not be treated like this. I'll give you a pass for calling this a rant, yeah I can see that, but look at this from my perspective. I am a consumer, paid up, bought all the dlc's gave them cash, and I pay for my mods by give authors a few bucks for their efforts. Modders make this game, exceptional. Plain vanilla? Its a boring mess. Lets make that clear .... Modder take this game to a whole new level and make it exceptional beyond the ability of the owner (CO and Paradox) or maybe beyond their skill. They do this for free. A proper business decision would be to honor these modders and give them some privilege for their hard work. Look at it this way, you have a product you sell, and someone comes along and says I can make it better for free and you can sell more. My job would be to make sure the guy helping me for free to improve my product is taken care of. That's all I am saying.

 

[Avanya]

There IS a modding beta with early access, but not every modder has access. Most modders with very popular mods or many mods have access. But the nature of a beta is that code changes, so I would imagine not every modder updates their mods weeks in advance of the release. Then ofc comes the fact that even with early access they need to have the time to actually test and fix their mods. Now I don't know how long you've been around, but let me tell you mods are getting updated WAY faster than before the modding beta was started. So while it might not be perfect, it's gotten a lot better. CO are also spreading out their patches much more (to avoid breaking mods).

Also to avoid the wait another time, you can put Steam in offline mode before the patch hits and play like that for a few days until mods are up to date.

Thread about the modding beta here

 

[SkiRich]

Thanks Avanya, I agree with all you said. Modders are amazing and underappreciated. Still I have to lay blame squarely with CO/Paradox for this. It can be completely avoided with nothing more than a business decision that doesn't cost them a dime. A quick scan of all the places someone can post their complaints shows all the errors and problems folks are having. Here is one example that boggles my mind. Loading Screen Mod. That mod alone should be an add-on CO/Paradox should have bought from the author and made standard with all installations. Its broke. Modder is working on a fix but says the new Road Editor and associated assets is a problem which tells me he had no clue this was coming. In none of the communications and sneak peaks from CO/Paradox did they warn anyone that a Road Editor was one of the new additions. If I was a Product Manager at CO/Paradox I would have made an effort to call the modder and make sure he gets some code to make this one mod work out of the gate. Take that to the next level ... How much effort would it have been to have a product manager become the go-between for all the popular/essential mods and have the authors get early access and some support to update their mods before day zero release?
Again business decision ... Have a release with mass adoption and smooth rollout or have a release that for vanilla players works fine but everyone else breaks the game for days on end. Who looks at that decision and says yes we know the release will clobber a bunch of folks, go ahead and release it? Every place I ever worked at would fire me for that decision.
Money talks ... Like I said before, not one more dime from me unless all my favorite mods work.

 

[metacritical]

Modder is working on a fix but says the new Road Editor and associated assets is a problem which tells me he had no clue this was coming. In none of the communications and sneak peaks from CO/Paradox did they warn anyone that a Road Editor was one of the new additions.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...m-and-the-key-features.1041905/#post-23235478

 

[Nepatan_Verem]

How much effort would it have been to have a product manager become the go-between for all the popular/essential mods and have the authors get early access and some support to update their mods before day zero release?

Don't see how this should change anything. A modder can't release an update for something, that isn't already there. Meaning: they could get early access and rewrite their code, but they can release it only when the update happens (only when nothing has changed until release date). And as Avanya said the nature of beta test is that, that the code changes many times until release (sometimes even on the day of release!). So the chances, that a modder will have a proper fix prior the official update is quite low. Result: you must again wait until the mod is updated.

Next step to consider: computer codes are a funny thing. Sometimes they work different on identical computer configurations. Meaning: some problems are hidden. It could happen that a modder has an update ready for the release time, where everything seems to work fine, and after release you have a bunch of users which report of a crash of their game, because the mod doesn't work. It is funny, but it happens all the time with all kinds of software.

Have a release with mass adoption and smooth rollout or have a release that for vanilla players works fine but everyone else breaks the game for days on end. Who looks at that decision and says yes we know the release will clobber a bunch of folks, go ahead and release it?

First of all: Paradox and Colossal order do not take responsibility for broken games due using of modded content. They only have responsibilities considering the vanilla game (updates, new content, etc.). You, as a user of mod should know that, then you've been warned at the moment you've installed your first mod or asset. A developer can't take any kind of responsibility for something, which was made from another person. I don't think that you would pay for a broken vase, that you've never touched, but that was knocked down from a stranger, right?

Second: there is now way to predict what will happen, when the update comes. As I said before: computer codes don't behave always the same way as they should and therefore not all problems are visible at first. There will be always a time after an update release of a system, software or game, where everything will adjust to the new changes. It is part of the development and I think Paradox, Colossal Order and the modders know that as well. They are all working hard and trying to fix issues as fast as possible.

Certainly the way it looks, it is not perfect, but it is working. That is all, what matters for both sides. All modders have different skills and knowledge. And they help each other, so the popular mods get an update. And I will gladly wait a month, if I must, for them to find a solution. But I wouldn't be mad, if it doesn't work out. Because I don't play Cities: Skylines for the mods. I play it because the game is great and allows so much people to be part of it with their own creations. That is amazing. And to play with both kinds of contents, regardless the risk of breaking a save or something, is the experience that makes us all play this game and have a lot of fun. Don't you agree?

 

[Avanya]

SkiRich you make lots of assumptions without knowing how things actually work. Do you really think that the road modding tool - something developed mainly for modders - was somehow hidden in the modding beta? Does that make any sense at all? No, it doesn't. Ofc you want your modders to test the tool you're building for them. Just because something hasn't been announced to the public doesn't mean it isn't getting tested in the beta.

The Loading Screen Mod seems to be fairly sensitive to changes as it breaks pretty much each update. With that in mind I can imagine it's not worth the work to fix it in the first beta build, since the beta might change so much that it breaks again. It's enough work having to fix a mod each official patch, there's really no need to fix it 2-5 times while it's in beta too. That means it might not be worth starting the real work until close to release, where the final build is available. But that might fall on some busy days for modders - I know I was busy like crazy when Mass Transit came out and had I had a mod to fix, I wouldn't have had the time. This time around CO have also made changes to the loading and atm I load as fast as I did with LSM. I'd still like to have the mod for the extra info it gives and the texture sharing, but it isn't the end of the world. Cities will still load without it.

Again. Most modders behind the really popular mods already have beta access. If you're gonna complain, at least complain about stuff they aren't already doing.

 

[SkiRich]

Avayna, I guess I could have phrased this a bit lighter. The intent was to show the frustration from the consumer side of the business model. Regardless of what is thought or what I understand about the processes or even how they improved over time, there is an exposure here given the breakdown of the game after every patch release for a significant portion of the community. That can and should be improved and can be improved with more consideration from the programmers/owners at Paradox and CO and involvement of the community. Some folks chalk it up to the overall nature of an open modding capability. I can see that. But from a consumer perspective the optics are always poor to have a game that is played for months on end suddenly break due to a new release, with no ability to go back once applied. You can continue to play it, but without all the add-ons that make the game relevant to you the consumer and playing offline only works for so long and prevents any future asset subscriptions, and in some instances hours of gameplay are permanently lost requiring starting from a new map. That is my point. For future reference I will keep all the comments from this thread in mind, as I have gained more perspective on the inner workings, but what also needs to be kept in mind is consumer sentiment decreases with every patch release that causes these outages. Something the business managers should consider for every new release of the game. Something that needs to be improved to lessen the impacts on day zero of the release. With an open modding community its complicated. I get that. But its not out of the realm of achievability, and if successful can be touted as part of the gamming experience above the other competition. The ultimate end result of a symbiotic relationship of open modder community and game company could be something like adding a badge to all mods as an accomplishment for being game ready on day zero of a new release. The mechanics of which I assume would be to have the access you mentioned already exists combined with an active prequalification process that encourages modders to get the code which is in near final stages, test and change as necessary, submit for update and get their badge on their mod.
On day zero I saw one popular mod do that. The update happened late in the evening, and on day zero it was ready and working.
To end this train of thought, suffice it to say, I don't know what will come of any of this, or if anyone will care, but as a consumer, this is my opinion, my perspective, and my recommendation and I assume many folks will see it the same way. Take from it what you want.

 

[Avanya]

Sure, it would be wonderful if everything worked instantly, but that's not how things work in real life. I guess they could hold off the patches a week longer than needed. Then GC would have released the 26th instead. Ofc that means the entire staff has to take a week's vacation or sit around and wait for modders to maybe ask questions. Having employees sit around and do nothing for a week is bad business (and frustrating for them).

I have never played a modded game that didn't run into situations like this whenever an update arrived. It's the nature of modding a game. Today I was able to load up my heavily modded saves, just over a day since release. Sure there's a few of the almost 100 mods I use that aren't working, but it's nothing that stops me from playing. I also haven't lost a save since After Dark was released. Maybe I'm just not using one or two mods that corrupt saves when they break - or maybe the panic is a little out of proportions.

In the end I just don't think about a day is unreasonable time to wait for mods to update - I actually think that's incredible well done of our modders! Mods are a choice and when you add the first one to Cities: Skylines there's a neat little warning. I don't think it's unreasonable to either play a new vanilla city or run Steam in offline mode for a day or two a few times a year. But maybe that's just me.

 

[SkiRich]

So I found out some new information today, and I literally lost it when I read it. I collected my thoughts and decided rather than write anything flaming I'll just post some facts and let everyone argue over the facts. The purpose is to highlight the development decisions this patch cycle, the choices that were made and to have Paradox and CO stop repeating the same disaster that is day zero patch breaking players games. This post is for the Program Managers.

- Early access is available and modders seem to be given plenty of attention. That's a plus, thank you.
- The development cycle allows CO/Paradox to make significant game changing additions up until the release date. This causes modders to wait until a solid stable near release build is available before they attempt to fix anything broken, or to even detect if anything is broken. Litterally a modder can load up a beta and everything works fine with their mod, then day of the release its broke because a last minute add on in code changed and that was the breaking point.

Green cities development was changing code up until 2 days prior to the release date. Which explains why I saw at least one modder with a popular mod have a working mod on day zero, but it also explains why everyone else was probably holding their breath given their past experience with last minute release changes.

Above are the facts.

These are my thoughts:

CO/Paradox needs to increase the time of final build change moratorium to release day and provide longer access to final code for the modders to prevent what happens every release day.
CO/Paradox should not make game changing additions during the change moratorium. Find some bugs, sure fix them, but don't change code to the point it makes modder effort moot that last week before the release. If you find yourself always in that condition, then make a management decision to move that moratorium farther back from release day to vet these things out.

I still don't know what happened this time, but given all the problems vanilla game players are having with Pink Screens and asset no-load issues I wonder if something went wrong and folks were scrambling to repair.

Paradox/CO you are asking me for my money by providing more content, So in exchange I am asking you to do better.

BTW Loading Screen Mod, as of this post time is still busted, with a note from the developer saying its going to take several more days to figure out the problems.
You guys do realize that this mod is something your company should have installed by default in the game right? Please reach out to the developer and assist.
You should read the comments section on Loading Screen Mod as well, you will get a better understanding of how the mod using game players feel about new releases and CO in general.

 

[Avanya]

Pink screen issue is NOT a mod issue - it seems to be one of many issues with Mac graphic drivers not working well with the same version of Unity (the update fixed one problem for some people to have a new one for others).

Here 2 days after release the broken mods list looks like this:

- Dynamic Resolution
- Procedural Objects (unsure if this is actually broken or was missing assets due to LSM being broken)
- Rush Hour

The author behind Dynamic Resolution only has that mod and might not have beta access (he didn't last time). He's working on a fix, but the mod can be disabled without any issues until then.

The author behind Rush Hour hasn't played the game since January and is busy with real life stuff, so if he has beta access it's a time issue. He's looking to pass it on to someone else atm. You can also safely disable this mod and play your city.

I'm gonna go ahead an assume you've never played a modded game before, because this isn't a disaster. A disaster is when you can't open your saves for weeks or never again - or you have to do a clean reinstall of the game to get anything working. With modders all over the world a little over a day for vital mods to be back is to be expected (since we can't schedule updates).

 

[boformer]

Be patient! CO and Paradox can support us (and they do), but they can not force us to update our mods immediately (or at all).

It was publicly said that there is a modder beta, and it can be assumed that a bunch of modders (but not all) have access to it.

It's very unlikely that last minute changes would break mods updated for the beta.

Maybe it's hard to believe, but maybe not every modder is interested in joining this beta program (e.g. for legal reasons). Maybe some modders are in the program, but do not have the time because they got a family and a job. Maybe they were sleeping when the update was published. Maybe some modders just gave up because they had to read too many complaints like yours! Maybe they stopped playing this game and went on a bicycle tour around the world!

To summarize:

Primarily it is the modders fault. They have the beta, they probably know the exact release date, they could communicate with the developers, and they could stop doing other unimportant stuff like playing with their children, talking with their partner and fix their god damn mods! Now! Otherwise we must threaten them that we will stop using their mods! Oh, wait...

Ok, back to being serious:

I'm actually not taking donations because I can not guarantee that mods will work after the next update, or that I will be there to update them. And I don't really care about "consumers", why would I?

Apart from the responsibility of the modders, it is also Steam's fault because they force us to update our game. Also, there is no way to transfer workshop objects. When the creator vanishes, there is no way to update it, and there is nothing CO or the active modders could do about it.

CO is doing their best to support us, and there are only 2 ways to make the transition even smoother:
1. Stop releasing DLCs and free updates
2. Ending mod support

 

[Steve B.]

You have missed two very important facts in your list of facts.

First, CO IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY MODS THAT YOU USE. They made the game mod-able because they realized that they could not possibly anticipate all the things that players would wish to have in their game; but making the game mod-able does not make them responsible for broken mods.

Second, MODDERS DO NOT OWE YOU UPDATES FOR THEIR MODS. Modders and asset makers do what they do because they enjoy doing it. Just because you use their mods does not mean that they have a responsibility to update them. A great many of the earliest mods for this game were abandoned by their makers. Some of them were adopted by other people; some of them just disappeared.

I am truly amazed at some of the most proficient modders and asset makers; I often wonder about them. Where do they find the time to do so much work for people they don’t know? Do they have jobs? Do they have families? Are they some kind of recluses who have no life? I do, however, think I know the answer to my questions. It is their hobby; they do it out of the satisfaction that they get for creating a successful mod or asset. To demand of them immediate satisfaction after an update is just plain wrong.

I don’t know how long you have been playing this game, but those of us who have been playing since release know the routine: New patch? Play another game or maybe make a new park or modify an asset in the asset editor or try your hand at making a map or, as I do, keep a vanilla city going for a day or two or at worst a week; and then we can go back to our modded cities and play them again.

The hysterical posters on the Steam forum complaining about not being able to play their cities for a few days and blaming CO for it need not bother CO; they simply have disregarded the first fact that I posted above.

I mean no offense by this post. I simply believe that you are demanding more of CO (and btw Paradox has little to do with it) than they owe you for your money. CO has done as much as they can do by allowing the major modders early access. I don’t think they owe them or us any more.

BTW, had you waited literally 15 minutes before posting, the Loading Screen mod would have been updated.

 

[Splorghley]

I for one will not buy an update until all mods I use are working. If they stop working, I'm leaving the game.
...
Lets be very clear here. CO and Paradox allow for and encourage Modding, therefore an excuse that the base vanilla game works and you wash your hands of mods post patch, is unacceptable. You know there are subscribers out there using mods, yet don't plan for helping them out prior to patch release. Unacceptable business model. Please fix.

I am impressed you managed to take a point as unobjectionable as "It'd be lovely if Paradox and CO worked with modders to maintain compatibility" and turned it into so much resentful entitlement. As the old adage goes: you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

I agree with what the others have said - CO don't owe us anything re mods. Their job is to give us a great base game. Nonetheless, had the OP phrased things more delicately, I'm sure we could have agreed that it is a huge positive for the average player when CO do kindly try to liaise with modders to ensure a smooth transition, and this is worth encouraging whenever possible and convenient for all involved.

 

[Fox_NS_CAN]

it is also Steam's fault because they force us to update our game.

This is really the big problem at the end of the day. Nothing to do with modders or CO. An option to keep playing without updating should exist in Steam. I don't know how many times I have had issues because of that.

I worked in a remote location, and sometimes GTA5 for example, which I had to let online periodically so it could "verify my entitlement to play", would then not let me play because a GB update was available. I had net access, but super slow. I usually had to wait until I went home (could be weeks) so it could update and I could play again. Worst part it was usually for multiplayer stuff, and I was not even playing multiplayer at all. *sigh*.

If CS could be told "not now" to an update in Steam, you could continue to play and only allow the game to patch once all your favorite mods were updated.

 

[boformer]

If CS could be told "not now" to an update in Steam, you could continue to play and only allow the game to patch once all your favorite mods were updated.

Yeah but that would cause new issues, especially workshop-related (multiple mod versions for different game versions, or just a download/subscription stop).

Steam's other shortcoming (no transfer of workshop items) is actually far worse from a modders point of view.