Early 1500s Spain AI

[Toio]

I propose that the Portuguese Colombus event be deleted. Portugal really doesn't need him anyways, he winds up being mostly just used to explore the middle of the Indian Ocean or the south Atlantic, not exactly high priorities.

I agree with this as I have seen it too often.

 

[Norrefeldt]

I think that sequence adds little to the game and should be removed.

It gives the AI 9% (0.95*(1-0.95*0.5)) chance at delaying Spanish colonisation. A Spanish player will never deny Columbus his journey, so why give the AI a chance to mess up? In MP a Portuguese player will either deny the Spanish player Columbus, or blackmail him for the sailor. Is that an improved situation?
I don't say that it's not plausibly that Columbus didn't work for Spain. But to REALLY simulate the REAL historical chance we must add up so many circumstances that contributed to make him end up where he did, so the final chances become very slim. (Why didn't he stay in Genoa?) Everything in history that's connected to certain persons had a very small chance of actually happening, but we should not try to simulate that. What were the chances Isabel and Ferdinand marrying, and the chances their family later marrying with the Habsburgs? There is no point in going into that amount of detail, since it virtually has no bottom!

I think we have to draw an arbitrary line somewhere regarding what things/flukes we should care to implement. They should improve the game, not give glaring advantages to the human player, not be exploitable and work well in MP. This sequence doesn't fullfill any of these things in my opinion.

The same is true to the question whether Spain should start colonising if they have taken out Granada. We give the AI big disadvantage since it has no chance of understanding the events beforehand. If Granada is conqered 1420, should we giva a whole host of probable explorers/conquistadors straight after that? No, I don't think so. But by making the fullfilled reconquista a prerequisite for colonisation we only pile up potential disadvatages to the AI, and no advantages. This is admittedly less of a clear case since there is historical justification for it, and no persons involved. But perhaps they would have sent explorers on the way even if Granada was still drawing it's last breaths? After all, the Portuguese were beginning to make a fair amount of profit from trading in new areas, Castile had already colonised the Canaries, the naval technology was there etc. It's not toatally unreasonable to let Spain explore, regardless of Granada. In my meaning we should, since it's hard to prove they would not have done something they actually did, and IT IMPROVES THE GAME!

 

[Garbon]

The same is true to the question whether Spain should start colonising if they have taken out Granada. We give the AI big disadvantage since it has no chance of understanding the events beforehand. If Granada is conqered 1420, should we giva a whole host of probable explorers/conquistadors straight after that? No, I don't think so. But by making the fullfilled reconquista a prerequisite for colonisation we only pile up potential disadvatages to the AI, and no advantages. This is admittedly less of a clear case since there is historical justification for it, and no persons involved. But perhaps they would have sent explorers on the way even if Granada was still drawing it's last breaths? After all, the Portuguese were beginning to make a fair amount of profit from trading in new areas, Castile had already colonised the Canaries, the naval technology was there etc. It's not toatally unreasonable to let Spain explore, regardless of Granada. In my meaning we should, since it's hard to prove they would not have done something they actually did, and IT IMPROVES THE GAME!

My real only comment is that perhaps it shouldn't be columbus. I mean we could so give random Joe explorer and have the ai setup to explore. Historically Columbus was turned down repeatedly by Los Reyes Catolicos who had their hands full, so I don't see how it could hurt to have someone else (with a little more credential, considering how often Columbus was turned away all around) could hurt. That said, if such a discussion is going to be the source of so much drama, pretend that I never even spoke. o

 

[unmerged(6159)]

We've sit here and in the historical focus thread all decided that we want majors to form more often and that the lack of this is a huge problem in the game and then we dick around with ideas like making Colombus appear for Spain even less likely than he already does.

I think you are exaggerating when you say this was decided. To me the question seemed to still be very much open.

Personally I'm getting tired of the flim-flamming with modding philosophy. Please! PLEASE! Be consistent. It makes helping out here a nightmare when a modder has no idea just which way the pendulum is going to swing in how the mod he's working on is being altered by others.

Where's the flim-flam? While I'm in complete agreement about the need for consistentcy the situation as I understood it was that we were unclear about the goals for the mod and these need to be settled. This thread here is an excellent example of why it needs to be settled.

In what way is giving Spain Joe Explorer who will do exactly what Columbus would have done had Granada not existed any improvement over giving them columbus. Castille already screws up the game if it doesn't become Spain (and we should ensure that that only happens 0.3% of the time instead of 5.5% of the time), so why should they get screwed up if Granada exists?

I support the proposal to get rid of Crook's Columbus in Portugal event.

 

[Garbon]

In what way is giving Spain Joe Explorer who will do exactly what Columbus would have done had Granada not existed any improvement over giving them columbus. Castille already screws up the game if it doesn't become Spain (and we should ensure that that only happens 0.3% of the time instead of 5.5% of the time), so why should they get screwed up if Granada exists?

You're right, consider my statements withdrawn.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

In what way is giving Spain Joe Explorer who will do exactly what Columbus would have done had Granada not existed any improvement over giving them columbus. Castille already screws up the game if it doesn't become Spain (and we should ensure that that only happens 0.3% of the time instead of 5.5% of the time), so why should they get screwed up if Granada exists?

support the proposal to get rid of Crook's Columbus in Portugal event.

If you want to drop Crook's event i won't argue, but as for Spain, here we have clear evidence that they would not have accepted Columbus because they did before.

If you don't want to give him to anyone else (though maybe back to portugal would be okay if their AI doesn't change), then that's okay to.

I'm not saying 1492 should be the last chance they get to grab him, but not having Granada should be a hard requirement and you can get the AI to focus on Granada beforehand.

 

[Norrefeldt]

If you want to drop Crook's event i won't argue, but as for Spain, here we have clear evidence that they would not have accepted Columbus because they did before.

I wouldn't call it hard evidence, since the world, nor the monarchs were the same every time he asked. There's not only one parameter, Granada, but the ones I pointed out above as well. However, none of us can prove anything here. If we want Spain to colonise often and good, I think that should be taken into account when we decide what to do here.

I'm not saying 1492 should be the last chance they get to grab him, but not having Granada should be a hard requirement and you can get the AI to focus on Granada beforehand.

We could try giving them an anti-Granada AI from, say 1480? If that works as well as it does for the Ottomans taking BYZ, then I think there isn't much of a problem. But eventually I think they should start colonize, otherwise it's too easy for a human just supporting Granada and it's existance until 1819.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

I wouldn't call it hard evidence, since the world, nor the monarchs were the same every time he asked. There's not only one parameter, Granada, but the ones I pointed out above as well. However, none of us can prove anything here. If we want Spain to colonise often and good, I think that should be taken into account when we decide what to do here.

We could try giving them an anti-Granada AI from, say 1480? If that works as well as it does for the Ottomans taking BYZ, then I think there isn't much of a problem. But eventually I think they should start colonize, otherwise it's too easy for a human just supporting Granada and it's existance until 1819.

1480 might be a bit too soon...

They could be given a colonization AI anyway if they aren't given an explorer. The AI will not colonize lands it does not know about, however, if they give up and start colonizing with Granada still intact, it pretty much signles and end to the reconquista because their shifting their priorities elsewhere.

That's essentially what I'm saying, that if they chose columbus while Granada still exists, its a signal the reconquista should end and Granada should be removed from the hitlist as well as cores.

 

[doktarr]

1480 might be a bit too soon...

If we're planning on pinning such far-reaching effects on this, then 1480 is barely soon enough.

They could be given a colonization AI anyway if they aren't given an explorer. The AI will not colonize lands it does not know about,

Which is why such a "compromise" is really a non-starter. The point is, there's a ticking clock on colonization, and we need it to start in 1492.

however, if they give up and start colonizing with Granada still intact, it pretty much signles and end to the reconquista because their shifting their priorities elsewhere.

That's essentially what I'm saying, that if they chose columbus while Granada still exists, its a signal the reconquista should end and Granada should be removed from the hitlist as well as cores.

That's a reasonable compromise in my opinion. Give Spain an AI that encourages it to take Granada out quickly. If it fails by the time 1492 rolls around, then have Spain simply let the matter fall and move on.

This is not a terribly good option, but it's a lot better than having Spain turn down Columbus and delay colonization. Too much depends on that.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

And how often will it fail to take Granada? In my opinion if this is adopted Castille should be given the "kill Granada" AI from 1419, and Gibraltar should be given to Castille in 1419. And they should get the cores from the start. Otherwise I don't see how we can be confidant that the AI will take Granada with a very high probability. Spain has a heck of a lot to do from 1492-1550. The can't afford to wait 10 years.

 

[doktarr]

And how often will it fail to take Granada? In my opinion if this is adopted Castille should be given the "kill Granada" AI from 1419, and Gibraltar should be given to Castille in 1419. And they should get the cores from the start. Otherwise I don't see how we can be confidant that the AI will take Granada with a very high probability. Spain has a heck of a lot to do from 1492-1550. The can't afford to wait 10 years.

Really, what it comes down to is that we have to accept ahistoricity in one of two ways:

1) Spain will be willing to go colonial even if Granada is still around

2) Spain will be encouraged to take Granada out earlier than she really did.

One or the other. Consequences to long-term gameplay are too dire otherwise.

 

[Garbon]

2) Spain will be encouraged to take Granada out earlier than she really did.

It took me so long to prevent this, I'd hate to revert back to this.

 

[doktarr]

How about this simple, minimalist compromise:

- Castille gets cores/AI/CBs/whatever to encourage the capture of Granada around 1480. This should cause them to take Granada out in the next 10 years barring some unusual circumstance (e.g. Spain is stuck in a neverending war with a distant nation, thereby screwing their development).

- Have Spain get Columbus (or the Columbus event) and the explorer AI in 1492, regardless of the status of Granada. Basically non-negotiable for gameplay reasons.

- Possibly, if Granada is still alive post-1492, have some sort of "abandon the reconquista" event. Granada could become a vassal state in this event, I dunno. The point is, it shouldn't come up very often.

 

[Yakman]

There should not a be an "abandon the reconquista" event. Spain needs to follow through and secure the peninsula.

my major problems with spanish AI are mostly on the continent [where they like to annex austria] and with the incas. The Incas need to be made weaker so that Spain can grab the whole empire. I'm tired of seeing the incas continue the game indefinitely--their defeat should be almost guaranteed, just like the aztec defeat is.

The fact that spain isn't colonizing the dirt poor reaches of south america isn't so important as they aren't always grabbing peru.

 

[EUnderhill]

There should not a be an "abandon the reconquista" event. Spain needs to follow through and secure the peninsula.

my major problems with spanish AI are mostly on the continent [where they like to annex austria] and with the incas. The Incas need to be made weaker so that Spain can grab the whole empire. I'm tired of seeing the incas continue the game indefinitely--their defeat should be almost guaranteed, just like the aztec defeat is.

The fact that spain isn't colonizing the dirt poor reaches of south america isn't so important as they aren't always grabbing peru.

My experience would lead me to believe that Spain will go after Granada indefinately, perhaps despite an "abandonment" event.

With regards to the Incas, I do not believe that the cakewalk that happened historically should be expected in most cases. The problem to me is not the ability of the Incans to resist, but the persistance on the part of Spain in following through on the conquest. Perhaps there could be an AI switch event triggered on Spain being at war with the Incas and no one else that puts in the ferocity = yes, and then a second event to remove it when Spain owns Cuzco.

 

[Mad King James]

My experience would lead me to believe that Spain will go after Granada indefinately, perhaps despite an "abandonment" event.

With regards to the Incas, I do not believe that the cakewalk that happened historically should be expected in most cases. The problem to me is not the ability of the Incans to resist, but the persistance on the part of Spain in following through on the conquest. Perhaps there could be an AI switch event triggered on Spain being at war with the Incas and no one else that puts in the ferocity = yes, and then a second event to remove it when Spain owns Cuzco.

The main problem is Spain can't *get* there. Spain will build this huge army, but no ships.
What about some "commisioning of an armada" that gives them an assload of transports or something...

 

[doktarr]

My experience would lead me to believe that Spain will go after Granada indefinately, perhaps despite an "abandonment" event.

With regards to the Incas, I do not believe that the cakewalk that happened historically should be expected in most cases. The problem to me is not the ability of the Incans to resist, but the persistance on the part of Spain in following through on the conquest. Perhaps there could be an AI switch event triggered on Spain being at war with the Incas and no one else that puts in the ferocity = yes, and then a second event to remove it when Spain owns Cuzco.

If the Inca event chain triggers, there's no need for this, since Spain gets the foothold it needs to finish the job easily. Unfortunately, they frequently don't trigger it, since they don't get a border with the Incas quickly enough. Hence, this thread.

 

[doktarr]

My experience would lead me to believe that Spain will go after Granada indefinately, perhaps despite an "abandonment" event.

With regards to the Incas, I do not believe that the cakewalk that happened historically should be expected in most cases. The problem to me is not the ability of the Incans to resist, but the persistance on the part of Spain in following through on the conquest. Perhaps there could be an AI switch event triggered on Spain being at war with the Incas and no one else that puts in the ferocity = yes, and then a second event to remove it when Spain owns Cuzco.

If the Inca event chain triggers, there's no need for this, since Spain gets the foothold it needs to finish the job easily. Unfortunately, they frequently don't trigger it, since they don't get a border with the Incas quickly enough. Hence, this thread.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

My experience would lead me to believe that Spain will go after Granada indefinately, perhaps despite an "abandonment" event.

That's fine, because i know it will happen, but then they'll be paying a higher price.

This imo is the bare minimum that should be done. The colonization of the new world has been decided to be too important to not be able to reflect it otherwise and thus, if Spain were to go that route it is an extremely loud signal they've given up on the reconquista if Granada still exists.

The same should go for humans too though, but except in even more extreme cases this wouldn't happen.

 

[Summoner]

How about this simple, minimalist compromise:

- Castille gets cores/AI/CBs/whatever to encourage the capture of Granada around 1480. This should cause them to take Granada out in the next 10 years barring some unusual circumstance (e.g. Spain is stuck in a neverending war with a distant nation, thereby screwing their development).

- Have Spain get Columbus (or the Columbus event) and the explorer AI in 1492, regardless of the status of Granada. Basically non-negotiable for gameplay reasons.

- Possibly, if Granada is still alive post-1492, have some sort of "abandon the reconquista" event. Granada could become a vassal state in this event, I dunno. The point is, it shouldn't come up very often.

Sounds reasonable to me, although I'd consider giving the AI a somewhat earlier start to cover for AI ineptness at war. No real need for humans though.