Early 1500s Spain AI

[doktarr]

Spain's AI in the early 1500s should be focussed on exploration and colonization of Central America and Columbia, to the exclusion of all other areas if necessary.

We should also reduce the colonization difficulty of several provinces in this area, most notably Isthmus, since a few events are keyed by ownership of that province. That should be enough to make the Inca conquest events trigger much, much more often.

The Aztec events still need an overhaul. Contact with the Zapotecs should probably trigger a vassalage and alliance against the Aztec.

 

[Norrefeldt]

When the Inca are hit by smallpox they should have massive desertions and should have their manpower pool whiped out. That would make the Spaniards fight less of a human wall and is historical as well. Right now they only lose population and a barrack, but the army and recruitment base is intact. :wacko:
Does this belong in this thread by the way?

 

[doktarr]

When the Inca are hit by smallpox they should have massive desertions and should have their manpower pool whiped out. That would make the Spaniards fight less of a human wall and is historical as well. Right now they only lose population and a barrack, but the army and recruitment base is intact. :wacko:

Good point. You could actually trigger the population/manpower loss/desertions on whiteman values. Seems to make sense to me. But as I said, just making the Spanish to settle and explore the right spots by the right time will allow the preexisting event chain, which is quite reasonable, to work.

Does this belong in this thread by the way?

Sure. I could have named this thread "spanish conquests in the Americas", I suppose. But I wanted to draw focus to a relatively simple problem that is standing in the way right now.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

This AI should still only fire if Granada does not exist.

 

[doktarr]

This AI should still only fire if Granada does not exist.

Without getting too heavily into that debate, I'll just say that if you want that to be the case, we need an "anti-Granada" AI that triggers sometime in the 1480s if Granada isn't dead yet. The AI has no idea that it needs to take out Granada in order to open up its most valuable event chains.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

not really...Spain is hardcoded to kill granada, even if its not on its hitlist and even if it has no CB on it.

But that is never the case, as we give them CB shields on Granada anyway (which btw humans shouldn't get until they coquer them, but that is another argument).

 

[unmerged(6159)]

This shouldn't depend on getting Granada or we'll have a screwed up Spain far too often.

 

[Norrefeldt]

not really...Spain is hardcoded to kill granada, even if its not on its hitlist and even if it has no CB on it.

Can you verify that, I have never heard it before.
I think that Spain should still go colonising even without Granada, just to make it more likely. They were colonising Canaries even before Granada was conquered.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Spain can colonize its nearby province of the Canaries or the Azones (if they take them from Portgual). I'd say minor colonizing of west africa would be okay, but this then would really hamper portgual.

I've tested it out myself about Granada, and yes its true, hwoever higher relations make it less likely (not 100% because spain will even declare war at 200 relations). However, it won't hurt to make the AI focus on Granada.

The thing is, Spain's colonization of NA should be triggered with columbus and he should not be accepted if Granada exists because the noble families would not have gone with the idea while the reconquista, Catile's (now Spain's) whole mission was the reconquista for the past 400 years and they'd want to see that through.

Esentially there should be multiple events for Columbus for human and AI based on whether Granada exists. These should be seperate though.

For the human version it would give as action_a to finish the reconquista and turn him down, or action_b, to take his offer, but lose the cores on Granada and some low revotlrisk (no immediate revolts). This one sleeps the other ones.

If Granada doesn't exist, the existing events are fine (dunno if we redid columbus to go after other countries or not). This one sleeps the others.

The AI should not get the option to take columbus, but it should also not sleep the one mentioned above either.

 

[Garbon]

The thing is, Spain's colonization of NA should be triggered with columbus and he should not be accepted if Granada exists because the noble families would not have gone with the idea while the reconquista, Catile's (now Spain's) whole mission was the reconquista for the past 400 years and they'd want to see that through.

Yea, I concur.

 

[Yakman]

Should Granada be removed as a revolter then? I mean, if they revolt, then Spain won't colonize anymore... or will they just pounce on the revolter when it forms?

 

[doktarr]

Should Granada be removed as a revolter then? I mean, if they revolt, then Spain won't colonize anymore... or will they just pounce on the revolter when it forms?

we could put a not=CAS and not=SPA in the revolt.txt entry. I'd still like others to be able to release GRA as a vassal.

 

[unmerged(31425)]

Spain can colonize its nearby province of the Canaries or the Azones (if they take them from Portgual). I'd say minor colonizing of west africa would be okay, but this then would really hamper portgual.

I've tested it out myself about Granada, and yes its true, hwoever higher relations make it less likely (not 100% because spain will even declare war at 200 relations). However, it won't hurt to make the AI focus on Granada.

The thing is, Spain's colonization of NA should be triggered with columbus and he should not be accepted if Granada exists because the noble families would not have gone with the idea while the reconquista, Catile's (now Spain's) whole mission was the reconquista for the past 400 years and they'd want to see that through.

Esentially there should be multiple events for Columbus for human and AI based on whether Granada exists. These should be seperate though.

For the human version it would give as action_a to finish the reconquista and turn him down, or action_b, to take his offer, but lose the cores on Granada and some low revotlrisk (no immediate revolts). This one sleeps the other ones.

If Granada doesn't exist, the existing events are fine (dunno if we redid columbus to go after other countries or not). This one sleeps the others.

The AI should not get the option to take columbus, but it should also not sleep the one mentioned above either.

I'm leaving if crap like this becomes acceptable in the AGCEEP. Why should a massive chunk of world history be flushed down the toilet if the AI fails to capture Granada? What if it does capture them and they revolt? This is not the kind of mod I signed up for. Too much history is going to be erased if this happens. Spain already only gets Columbus 95% of the time because Portugal gets a crack at him first. Personally I'm madder than hell that this event is even in the game. Historical events of this great of siginificance need to be taken as givens in the game. Considering the damage that it can do for no good reason 5% of the time to the Spanish AI I think it's exactly the kind of event that needs to not be in this mod.

Study my posts #284 and #308 in the historical focus thread because I've recently thought through the matter of a historically plausible mod and the consequences for majors not forming well more thoroughly and I can assure everybody that these scenarios are just going to make crappy games. The more and more I understand how the AI and engine works the more and more I realize how utterly impossible it will be to make a histoircally plausible mod that isn't a chaotic mess.

The idea of a purely historically plausible mod isn't offensive to me, it's just that I've had the misfortune of figuring out the engine well enough to know that the GC setup or anything like it and the historical events that go along with it make this kind of a mod not really practical and consequently I have zero interested in continuing to contribute to a mod that I know is doomed to fail to surpass the vanilla in how interesting it is and how much of a challenge it is.

You guys are throwing around whether or not Coloumbus should be given to Spain. Man if that ain't sacriligeous I don't know what is. Why don't we debate the possiblity that the protesastant reformation doesn't take place? Because that literally is the level of history your dicking around with and taking so candidly.

Jinnai your entitled to your opinion man and I'm not attacking you, but I myself am not interested in playing nor contributing to this kind of mod and I wouldn't be surprised if many others feel the same way, especially if they have realized even half of what I have.

 

[doktarr]

I have zero interested in continuing to contribute to a mod that I know is doomed to fail to surpass the vanilla in how interesting it is and how much of a challenge it is.

OK, in that case, you've got nothing to worry about!

I mean, I'm basically on your side in this argument, but let's not be so overdramatic. The idea that this approach will make the game less historical, less dense with majors, or less challenging for minors than vanilla is just really silly.

 

[Garbon]

OK, in that case, you've got nothing to worry about!

I mean, I'm basically on your side in this argument, but let's not be so overdramatic. The idea that this approach will make the game less historical, less dense with majors, or less challenging for minors than vanilla is just really silly.

Well I mean my real thoughts just lie in the fact, thats its pretty much true, I mean Ferdinand and Isabella were so focused on getting rid of Granada that I don't see why they'd be so interested in funding colonial attempts while they were busy on their religious campain. This isn't to say that I think we shouldn't have Columbus because of this, but it is willing to think about such things if we don't wanna be trapped under the "evil" determinisim. Thinking about in the sense that once Granada is subdued, perhaps it could just be generic explorer/not Columbus which sparks Spain's colonization efforts.

So what if Granada falls or the Reconquista is abandon sparks Spains colonial efforts?

 

[unmerged(31425)]

Well I mean my real thoughts just lie in the fact, thats its pretty much true, I mean Ferdinand and Isabella were so focused on getting rid of Granada that I don't see why they'd be so interested in funding colonial attempts while they were busy on their religious campain. This isn't to say that I think we shouldn't have Columbus because of this, but it is willing to think about such things if we don't wanna be trapped under the "evil" determinisim. Thinking about in the sense that once Granada is subdued, perhaps it could just be generic explorer/not Columbus which sparks Spain's colonization efforts.

So what if Granada falls or the Reconquista is abandon sparks Spains colonial efforts?

It doesn't matter if it's true. it doesn't matter if it was a 1% chance. It happened and this is a historical mod. Think about the history that is dangling in the balance and the precedent that will be set. Making Columbus less likely to show up for Spain flys in the face against everything that was resolved in the historical focus thread. We want historical results right? But then we turn around and say whatif WHATIF and are perfectly willing to part with a piece of history that undoubtedly is in the top 5 in the game as far as importance in world history goes. If we can ditch this we can ditch anything. Go ahead make B options to historical events, but this is just gonig to far.

OK, in that case, you've got nothing to worry about!

I mean, I'm basically on your side in this argument, but let's not be so overdramatic. The idea that this approach will make the game less historical, less dense with majors, or less challenging for minors than vanilla is just really silly.

Overly dramatic? Bro I wish that's all there was to it but it ain't. Have any of you ever seen what happens to the Spanish AI when Portugal gets Columbus? I have and let me tell you what it looks like, since as outrageous as it may be, apparently no one gives a damn about the gameplay effects.

Spain can't explore the carribean ontime. The result, it has less colonies early 16th century, poses even less of a threat to the Aztecs and Incas, and is considerably weaker the whole game. How do I know? I watched it thats how. Essentially what happens is that it causes a domino effect, ya you know that EU2 concept so few of us seem to grasp, that severely cripples the Spanish AI the whole game.

We've sit here and in the historical focus thread all decided that we want majors to form more often and that the lack of this is a huge problem in the game and then we dick around with ideas like making Colombus appear for Spain even less likely than he already does. It never should have been tampered with to begin with! There is no good reason why Spain should not be getting Colombus 100% of the time unless Spain doesn't exist. Spain not getting Colombus, for someone who wants a challenge, is a good reason to quit and start over. When Spain doesn't get Colombus the game sucks!

Personally I'm getting tired of the flim-flamming with modding philosophy. Please! PLEASE! Be consistent. It makes helping out here a nightmare when a modder has no idea just which way the pendulum is going to swing in how the mod he's working on is being altered by others. What is the sense in me helping out with a mod when we can't make up our minds. I've spent alot time helping with this mod and I'm beggining to think that it's all been a waste of my time.

 

[Garbon]

It doesn't matter if it's true. it doesn't matter if it was a 1% chance. It happened and this is a historical mod. Think about the history that is dangling in the balance and the precedent that will be set. Making Columbus less likely to show up for Spain flys in the face against everything that was resolved in the historical focus thread. We want historical results right? But then we turn around and say whatif WHATIF and are perfectly willing to part with a piece of history that undoubtedly is in the top 5 in the game as far as importance in world history goes. If we can ditch this we can ditch anything. Go ahead make B options to historical events, but this is just gonig to far.

Huh? I just said that I want Spain to continue to be colonial, I just don't really mind whether Columbus sparks this off or not. Besides, its also historical that Isabella didn't get convinced until after Granada fell. I mean just look at the fact that in 1486 to 1490, the Spanish court consistently denied Columbus's proposal and it was only until the fall of Granada that Isabella was convinced.

And yes it is going a bit overboard to renounce your whole involvement with the project after a few statements after Jinnai and myself.

 

[Yakman]

IDLF has a point.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

IDLF has a point.

And so do myself and Garbon, if we make the AI do its stuff right and have an option to give Spain another explorer.

 

[unmerged(31425)]

Huh? I just said that I want Spain to continue to be colonial, I just don't really mind whether Columbus sparks this off or not. Besides, its also historical that Isabella didn't get convinced until after Granada fell. I mean just look at the fact that in 1486 to 1490, the Spanish court consistently denied Columbus's proposal and it was only until the fall of Granada that Isabella was convinced.

It doesn't matter. This is too important of an event to leave to chance. The consequences for stealing Colombus away from Spain are simply chatostrophic to normal, healthy gameplay developement. Spain is the most important country in the game. It is the country most capable of challenging a human player. What is the sense in crippling it?

I propose that the Portuguese Colombus event be deleted. Portugal really doesn't need him anyways, he winds up being mostly just used to explore the middle of the Indian Ocean or the south Atlantic, not exactly high priorities.

And yes it is going a bit overboard to renounce your whole involvement with the project after a few statements after Jinnai and myself.

I didn't say that I'm renouncing my whole involvement, but if the HC is not going to take a stance against ahistorical events that cause massive damage to historical developement then put your self in my shoes. What would you do?

And so do myself and Garbon, if we make the AI do its stuff right and have an option to give Spain another explorer.

Hmm, give Spain an another explorer instead. I'm sorry I missed the part about how that was historically plausible.