Dynasty assignment fail!

[grommile]

So, I'm playing Russia, and I have a quick nose at Ming's diplomacy page (because I see they've marked me their Rival).

Who do I find in charge?

Emperor Yousong I Aisin Gioro.

Sorry, folks, but if the Emperor is of the Aisin Gioro dynasty, that ain't Ming I'm looking at.

 

[TheBloke]

True. The Aisin Gioro made terrible vases.

 

[Novacat]

Sorry, folks, but if the Emperor is of the Aisin Gioro dynasty, that ain't Ming I'm looking at.

It likely happened via royal marriage with Manchu.

Still, it actually works out better since Ming has better NIs than Manchu/Qing anyway.

 

[Incompetent]

What's wrong here is Paradox's decision to have a country called 'Ming' in 1444. What's wrong with 'China'?

 

[Red John]

What's wrong here is Paradox's decision to have a country called 'Ming' in 1444. What's wrong with 'China'?

My best guess is that there was never a really 'unified' china in these times. It was ruled by a dynasty, and era's were based off of that. Like the Song dynasty era, and things like that.

(My deepest deepest apologies if I'm horribly wrong on this.)

 

[Nobak]

Happens all the time with Daimyo clans. It's just not modeled by the game. Even in the history files sometimes, like Hosokawa/Miyoshi or Shiba/Mogami

 

[Incompetent]

My best guess is that there was never a really 'unified' china in these times. It was ruled by a dynasty, and era's were based off of that. Like the Song dynasty era, and things like that.

(My deepest deepest apologies if I'm horribly wrong on this.)

China went through some catastrophic periods of disunity, but it had had a strong sense of cultural identity for a long time before 1444. We talk about the Ming period in Chinese history like we might talk about the Tudor period in English history or the Romanov period in Russian history - it doesn't make it a whole different country. There's even the whole 'Mandate of Heaven' concept. If you hold the Mandate of Heaven, that means you are rightful ruler of the Middle Kingdom (known as 'China' in English) and your realm should be named as such.

Contrast with say the Ottoman Empire, which had no historical or cultural basis, and really was just the accumulation of territory controlled by a particular dynasty.

 

[Labrynian Rebel]

China went through some catastrophic periods of disunity, but it had had a strong sense of cultural identity for a long time before 1444. We talk about the Ming period in Chinese history like we might talk about the Tudor period in English history or the Romanov period in Russian history - it doesn't make it a whole different country. There's even the whole 'Mandate of Heaven' concept. If you hold the Mandate of Heaven, that means you are rightful ruler of the Middle Kingdom (known as 'China' in English) and your realm should be named as such.

Contrast with say the Ottoman Empire, which had no historical or cultural basis, and really was just the accumulation of territory controlled by a particular dynasty.

Actually the Ottoman Empire was known also as "Turkey" or the "Turkish Empire" since it was a Turkish country, just because it conquered non-Turkish territory doesn't change that. Anyways I think it's called "Ming" so we can have the "Qing" form, or else we would be left with the dreadful "Han China" and "Manchu China"

 

[Red John]

China went through some catastrophic periods of disunity, but it had had a strong sense of cultural identity for a long time before 1444. We talk about the Ming period in Chinese history like we might talk about the Tudor period in English history or the Romanov period in Russian history - it doesn't make it a whole different country. There's even the whole 'Mandate of Heaven' concept. If you hold the Mandate of Heaven, that means you are rightful ruler of the Middle Kingdom (known as 'China' in English) and your realm should be named as such.

Contrast with say the Ottoman Empire, which had no historical or cultural basis, and really was just the accumulation of territory controlled by a particular dynasty.

Mm, that makes sense.

I guess there really isn't a very good reason for it not being China, other than Ming ruling for a lot of the time period.

 

[Chamboozer]

Actually the Ottoman Empire was known also as "Turkey" or the "Turkish Empire" since it was a Turkish country, just because it conquered non-Turkish territory doesn't change that.

Known as "Turkey" in Europe, which doesn't speak much for how its elites viewed their state. One must keep in mind that most of the Ottoman ruling class came either from non-Turks in the empire or non-Turkish Caucasian groups outside of it. It certainly was not an ethnic empire meant to be ruled by and for Turks. Its very essence was a result of its conquest of non-Turkish territory.

I am, of course, speaking about the EU period. By the 20th Century it's fair to call it a 'Turkish Empire' in the ethnic sense.

 

[Bonafide]

China didn't simply exist during this period. It's mainly a western construction and afterthought to represent the land area, and not the nation and the ruling kingdom.

E: If we're gonna call it what it was mainly called during the period we should just go with "The Middle Kingdom" or "Cathay" or "Zhongguo".

 

[Reezy]

Food for thought for the next expansion.