Dynastic Relations, a simple way of making the game more about dinasties

[vaca_loca]

Crusader Kings II has a very good Dynasty mechanic, but it is under utilized. We all want to see dynastic feuds, and also lasting alliances, just general dynasty drama.

My suggestion to improve this is to implement Dynastic Relations, which would be a number from 0-100, just like for personal relations, but for Dynasties. So if you perform favorable diplomatic actions such as marriages, alliances, joining wars, granting titles, your dynastic relation with the dynasty from the person affected would increase. But if you kill someone from the dynasty, usurp/revoke titles, divorce, don't honor alliance, declare war on, then the dynastic relation would decrease. Dynastic prestige could serve a purpose here, by giving a bonus to your dynasties relation with others.

But how does this affect the game? Simple. Half of the dynastic relations score is added to your personal relation with anyone from that dynasty. So if you have +100 dynastic relations, you get +50 personal relations with everyone from that dynasty, if you have -100 dynastic relations, you get -50 relations with everyone from that dynasty. So personal relations are still what counts, but if you make some enemies in the same dynasty, you might get the entire dynasty to hate you.

There could be a Dynastic Head (person with most titles), interacting with the dynastic head would cause larger changes to the dynastic relation, and his/her diplomacy would increase dynastic relations with other dynasties.

This is the basic suggestion, not too complicated, and would add a great deal of depth to how you handle you relations, killing off an enemy from a powerful dynasty might generate a lot more problems than it solves, getting the whole dynasty against you and not just the close family members. It would also lay the ground for further dynasty mechanics such as cadet brances splitting off, dynastic unions (marriage between dynastic heads).

What do you think?

 

[Ephafn]

I'd agree with this suggestion for multiple reasons (such as leading to long-lasting feuds and loyal houses).

I would also like to see inter-dynastical relations too, which could represent whether a given character is appreciated by the rest of his dynasty.

 

[Panzerschiffe]

Sounds good. Long lasting feuds between families would make for some interesting games. Also, friendly dynasties you can count on, preferred marriages and such...

I can see numerous positive additions generated from this idea!

 

[Yellowjacket]

Wow, yes, a very good and simple idea!

 

[Veetor]

I approve of this idea.!

 

[Westernesse]

Very good idea, its stupid when you reward a vassal for sometimes 40-50 years of loyal service with lots of land and his son inherits and then rebels every 3 years.

 

[Jaghave]

please add this to a patch or dlc paradox

 

[Dragoon0403]

+1 to you sir.

 

[Portal]

I've actually put a lot of thought in Dynasty to Dynasty relations and would like to put forward a suggestion.

- First, a Dynasty tab similar to Religion tab.

- Then, a Dynasty Head. The Matriarch or Patriarch of the Dynasty would also have powers similar to the Pope within it's dynasty. A Dynasty Head is determined by the Dynasty Succession Law. Those would be Elective, Seniority, Prestige and Primogeniture. The Dynasty head would have powers such as a parallel to Excommunication, Disinheriting.

- A disinherited person is a member of the dynasty in nothing but name. They are

• Removed from the line of succession within the dynasty. As are the person's children.
• Gains a CB on the Dynasty head to 'Depose Dynasty Head.' If successful, they become the Dynasty Head, and obviously they are reinherited. Or something.
• The Dynasty Head gains a CB on them, probably just a basic claim on all their titles.
• The Disinherited has a large opinion malus with the rest of the dynasty.

- Then, a Dynasty Score rating, accumulated by the score of all the members of the dynasty.

- Then a list of Dynasty members, and obviously the Dynasty Tree.

- A list of all other Dynasties and their Score and Dynasty to Dynasty Relations.

• Dynasty to Dynasty Relations are determined by relations of individual Dynasty members, with a modifier depending on the status of the character within the Dynasty (their score contribution).
• If Dynasty to Dynasty Relation is bad enough for a sufficient length, a new modifier is introduced, a.k.a Dynastic Rivalry.
• Dynastic Rivalry gives a malus to individual and Dynasty relations.
• Dynastic Rivalry gives a CB to the Dynasty members. This CB would not claim any land (as the dynasty does not have any actual claims, just a sustained rivalry) but would give a large amount of Prestige and Dynastic Score to the victors, as well as money, and decrease the Prestige and Dynastic Score of the losers considerably.
• This gives the opportunity for interesting inter-dynasty conflict, with each side attempting to fabricate claims, assassinate the opposing side, gain prestige, and such.

- Dynasty Heads give protection to all Dynasty members. Dynastic members can call the Dynastic Head to arms, who will in turn call the rest of the Dynasty, and denying the Call to Arms would give an opinion malus and make you lose prestige (making you vulnerable to Disinheriting).

- Members could set up something similar to the Anti-Pope, their own Dynasty Head, to challenge the existing Head.

- Dynasty members could also form their own dynasty branches, with the ability to maybe create an independent Dynasty from the main tree, with a personalized Coat of Arms, and such. I don't know about this one, but maybe.

Thought of it first

 

[unmerged(348943)]

Bump

 

[Portal]

Bump

It was posted today and it's on the front page. IT DOESN'T NEED A GODDAMN BUMP.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Actually sounds good. Especially of this means the friendly or loyal houses DON'T JOIN FACTIONS.

 

[Sam L]

Sounds great. And cadet branches also.

 

[Vainglory]

Love this suggestion. Logged in after months away just to +1 it.

I find it irksome that the "Granted me a [title]" boost to relations has absolutely no hereditary factor. You can grant a duchy to a count, then they die, and the heir has absolutely no boost. Yet if not for you their family would still be counts, and you may have granted the title mere days before the count died. Yet (unless I've missed something) if you reward a count as an infant, he'll remain grateful until you die, even if it's ninety years later, as though he'd never get accustomed enough to his title to cease feeling grateful. In a similar way you can grant a title to a character, die, and your heir has no boost either. It seems a bit wrong that if your family went from being barons to dukes you'd have no gratitude at all toward the son of the man who promoted you so much. As Basileus of the Byzantine Empire I've held onto kingdoms until my ruler died, then as the heir (a grandson) dispensed kingdoms to the kinsmen with duchies who hated me the least, to help hold the empire together (much easier to manage a dozen kingdoms than four dozen duchies, especially when half the dozen have a +60 for Granted a Kingdom). It seemed an oversight to me that no gratitude would pass from the Basileus to his heir: I've promoted landless members of my dynasty to kingdoms, yet that nets 0 gratitude once either the giver or receiver dies. Come on - you went from being landless to a king, ruling over all of Armenia, and you aren't remotely grateful to family that did it for you?

A dynasty based system would be fascinating and it would also help resolve some of the "Oh your ruler died, here have your relations set to -50 for everyone who loved your father/grandfather because you didn't personally reward them". I understand of course that a grandson could inherit and be a real brat who the previous king/emperor/duke's courtiers/vassals loathe, but it would be nice if the game allowed some degree of gratitude to be inherited, with decay for each inheritance, so that by the time of a third inheritance there's no gratitude anymore. That's a separate issue though. Love your proposal.

 

[unmerged(362834)]

I love to keep former ruling families when I conquer a place... imo, it's more realistic : despoiling local nobilities should normally result in endless revolts!

So I completely support your suggestions...!!

 

[magritte2]

I like this idea as well. I think in general that family should matter (bigger bonuses for close relatives) more than it does. And as somebody points out, I also am in favor of cadet branches. Someone who has the same name as you because you share the same great-great-great grandfather probably shouldn't really count himself as family.

 

[riadach]

What I would also like to see, is in certain circumstances (perhaps based on crown authority, or culture), that there were long-established connections between dynasties and council positions/land titles/honorary titles. Refusal to appoint a member of a certain dynasty to such a position could lead to a dynastic penalty, as well as an increased chance of rebellion among vassalspopulations under that title. Maybe it could be represented as a usurper malus.

 

[Ruskhan]

yes

 

[ASPGolan]

+1 from le moi also...

In addition to the OP:

Sounds great. And cadet branches also.

+1 to this one.

Also, my two pennies:
Depending on the inheritance law, the people most likely to inherit the most titles (or most important titles) get a penalty, just like when you upset some of your own family when you change those laws. I'm thinking that your cousins will be jealous that only your branch of the family gets to have all the titles, for example - so penalty to the score there. People that don't have a realistic chance to inherit something - bonus to this score. They are more likely to approve of you. We've seen this up to late 19th century / early 20th century, "minor" family ass-kissing in the hope that they will be thrown a bone.

-------

This suggestion has the potential to quell a lot of the recent improvement suggestions and heated discussions in the forum. I've read some stories about particular states or problems they had with their realm's factions. Having a united dynasty - via good management of these relations - gives you some leverage. Also poor management of this will lead to your kinsmen allying with your foes... ouch. They already do, but its random [to be read: it seems random, I think there is a score that each character has for its own ambitions; it just seems to fail IMHO, it feels wrong during the game]. Personally I'm upset that family members that I've given titles too and that like me 100p, choose to ally with people they simply not like. Sure an ambitious character, might choose this when a faction is strong enough, but it seems to be the default in SoI and LoR games that I've played so far (mostly in BE, counts, dukes, kings, basileus or with occitan dukes).

---------------

The downside of this: super-houses. United houses will be possible and they will powerhouse some area of the map. I think it has the potential to unbalance the game. Its possible considering history, just not common to the era of CK2 (maybe I'm wrong).

 

[Comradebot]

I'd like this too, as I frequently make note of all the other major dynasties either around me as a vassal or in my realm as a liege.