Dynamic Front Line - Do this game really need it?

[Cadwalla]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO ... and NO

Honestly, I can understand why some people WANT to have the front line SHOWN. And that's cool. It's gamey. But as any real commander would know, you do not have magical lines drawn alerting you as to where enemies are coming down roads and where invisible units have infiltrated your lines.

It would be a very interesting game without the red and blue front line. You could still play and try to encircle enemies (by playing with the the lines "ON" you could get a feel for how they behave and then turn them "OFF" to play with the big boys. And when "OFF", the over all control of the battlefield would still be shown.

Unfortunately, this WOULD have been the perfect WW2 tactical level game I have dreamed of since the Squad Leader board game 36 years ago.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THE DEVELOPERS CANNOT SIMPLY OFFER AN "OFF" OPTION FOR THOSE PLAYERS WHO WANT TO PLAY MORE REALISTICALLY.

Sorry Paradox. BECAUSE OF THE RED BLUE LINE, I will not buy. And I am sure you have lost others because of this too. Just give us the damned OPTION of turning the stupid, childish lines off. I know you are married to the idea because it is your baby, but seriously, this is childish gamey stuff. Oh, how REAL commanders would have drooled for information like this. Ridiculous. No purchase. Sorry. And I was going to try desperately to get all of my friends to buy the game so we could play 4v4. Not until these lines CAN be turned off.

Doubt me? I will ask my dad who was a company tank commander what he thinks and bring his review in here in a few days.

 

[FatRefrigerator]

/rant

Dead thread is dead.

I will give you one concession here, having the line move when you can't see what is moving it is rather gamey, however, there has to be some visual clue as to why the enemy now has +2 points on you if you can't see the line.

EDIT: Also Paradox is not making this game, they're just bankrolling Eugen Systems.

 

[Cadwalla]

Worse than what I posted above, the "RED/BLUE FRONT LINE" also has a terribly a-historical effect on game play. In the "GamePlay Reveal" (posted on the Paradox Extra YouTube Channel), one of the commentators says, "it shows you where you are not." Stupid. Because, as the inverse, it shows you where the ENEMY IS NOT. Which means you can never be surprised on your flank. Which means that one of the main maneuvers of WW2 armored units is nullified (the hammer and anvil defense or offense, where some units take on an enemy head on, while friendly units hit them from the side to defeat thin side armor -- often from ambush positions). Don't believe me? Watch the 1944 German Wehrmacht movie about defending against Russian penetration on the scale we are talking about in this game (the name of it escapes me at the moment).

As I have seen by watching the game play videos, all of this reduces most battles in Steel Divisions to bloody, head on slug-athon attacks, which means that a vast swatch of tactical options are taken away from players. How the heck do you even really ambush enemies with this stuff? You realize with this ridiculous visible front line (which has made me say, "no thank you" for me and all of my friends, who I ASSURED it could SURELY be turned off for advanced players, but thankfully they have not purchased yet), you are saying two guys in a Jeep travelling at 40 kph down a road can know what is happening in a stand of trees 300 yards away. Really, what kinds of children do the designers think we are?

But look. It is a kind of "cool" thing for some people. And it is an interesting take on tactical gaming. I can't say it is ALL bad. But just not realistic. Chess isn't realistic. But some would argue it is a GREAT game. So, obviously KEEP IT. But don't force this childish stuff on us when you can easily turn it off and let us play without it.

Otherwise, the perfect game. Home run. Hats off. But what a tragedy. I was hoping to come out of gaming retirement.

 

[Radioshow]

Hold on a minute and I'll invent a holodeck for you!!!

This is a game and there are limits to what can be done with a game like this. "Realism" is a buzzword, we're behind a screen playing with a mouse and keyboard.
They cannot simulate the battlefield the way we would all like. There have to be abstractions to convey information that we would to get from different sources on the field. While the frontline system is not perfect, it is the best thing I have seen yet for approximating the flow of battle so far.

To be so hostile to a mechanic that is a massive improvement over wargame is odd. You are expecting things that cannot really be done in this type of game yet. You could turn it off sure, but for multiplayer it is a necessary evil.

 

[Karlburg]

Worse than what I posted above, the "RED/BLUE FRONT LINE" also has a terribly a-historical effect on game play. In the "GamePlay Reveal" (posted on the Paradox Extra YouTube Channel), one of the commentators says, "it shows you where you are not." Stupid. Because, as the inverse, it shows you where the ENEMY IS NOT. Which means you can never be surprised on your flank. Which means that one of the main maneuvers of WW2 armored units is nullified (the hammer and anvil defense or offense, where some units take on an enemy head on, while friendly units hit them from the side to defeat thin side armor -- often from ambush positions). Don't believe me? Watch the 1944 German Wehrmacht movie about defending against Russian penetration on the scale we are talking about in this game (the name of it escapes me at the moment).

As I have seen by watching the game play videos, all of this reduces most battles in Steel Divisions to bloody, head on slug-athon attacks, which means that a vast swatch of tactical options are taken away from players. How the heck do you even really ambush enemies with this stuff? You realize with this ridiculous visible front line (which has made me say, "no thank you" for me and all of my friends, who I ASSURED it could SURELY be turned off for advanced players, but thankfully they have not purchased yet), you are saying two guys in a Jeep travelling at 40 kph down a road can know what is happening in a stand of trees 300 yards away. Really, what kinds of children do the designers think we are?

But look. It is a kind of "cool" thing for some people. And it is an interesting take on tactical gaming. I can't say it is ALL bad. But just not realistic. Chess isn't realistic. But some would argue it is a GREAT game. So, obviously KEEP IT. But don't force this childish stuff on us when you can easily turn it off and let us play without it.

Otherwise, the perfect game. Home run. Hats off. But what a tragedy. I was hoping to come out of gaming retirement.

Well, if you can't lay ambushes in the game as is, you're probably too dumb to play it well anyway, because there are ways.

 

[Radioshow]

Ya that's funny 'cause as 3rd Arm I'm always laying ambushes and flanking!!!

 

[Yung Rommel]

I don't think I need to play it to know, I have watched the Twitch gameplay and saw the front line creep forward even though NO UNITS spotted any enemy units advancing. How do you reconcile the fact that in a simple tactical RTS game about WW2, the game tells you EXACTLY where the enemy is pushing even though you or any of your units cant see them?????

What is this?

The point of the frontline is to make gameplay about seizing territory-its important to show this- and to simulate unit stress in relation to the battlespace. Without it being visible, you are removing tactics from the game.

It showing troop movement without recon is an abstraction of basic field reports and NCO intuition. ("They seem to be gathering for an attack, sir!")

The only flaw with the frontline is the rate at which it refreshes, but this is required because otherwise it would make small unit actions difficult to control and unreadable.

If you want we can 1v1 and I can destroy you, by the way.

 

[DoubleDan68]

OMG! Typo in the title I can't edit The title should read "Dynamic Front Line-Does this game really need it".

I think the concept of tracking a "dynamic front line" that affects things in the game is understandable.

What I don't think is understandable (let alone necessary) is to actually graphically show it to players playing the game where it actually is. Actually graphical showing the dynamic front line is a bit of an immersion killer and kills much of the concept of FOW and the need for proper recon.

Can someone please explain WHY Eugen or anyone else thinks a game like this (which is not that far different from the Waragme series) NEEDS to graphically show players where the "dynamic front line" is? Would it not be better to instead let the game track the dynamic front line but NOT SHOW PLAYERS where it actually is?

Actually I think having the front line hidden would be cool as a setting in the lobby....

 

[Fade2Gray]

For everyone who obsesses over realism, I highly suggest the Combat Mission series of games. The level of depth and detail in those games blows everything WG/SD does out of the water by far. Especially if you Ironman it (my favorite setting), command units actually behave very much like actual command units, ie they are key in relaying information between units. With "Borg Vision" being gone in it, this is insanely critical. Cutting the chain of command can have serious effects on how effective units are when they engage in combat.

That being said, graphics are not as hot and the UI is a bit lacking, but I still find it to be a highly enjoyable series to play. The series covers everything from WW2 to very new future, so you can really knock yourselves out with it. Now, while Wargame/Steel Division both give a fair nod to realism, arguing over "muh realism" in either game is a bit much. Both games do a lot that really blows realism out of the water, so trying to nitpick over this and that is just beyond silly.

5) Because people like it. -----------> None of the Wargame players I have spoken to!

Hi, Wargame player here, I think the front line system is made of pure awesome sauce and is 10/10 would UMPF UMPF again.