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Dynamic Front Line - Do this game really need it?

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The idea of having the same game mechanics only with the frontline being "invisible" also would simply be frustrating. Now, imagine you've pushed back the enemy super far into their deployment zone, but a large armoured spearhead got through and is now roving around your rear lines. Realistically, such a force would be easy to get a rough ballpark of where they are, even if you don't have eyes on them. Noise, dust, sigint, etc. With frontlines, you can tell the rough area where they are. Without frontlines, you'd have to pretend that they could be literally anywhere in your backyard, and spread out looking for them. In fact, the only thing telling you that they are even there is the fact that you keep losing points. Now imagine that this force broke up and scattered behind your lines, capturing random parts, occasionally connecting with other bits to randomly cut off your own troops in tiny "pockets". You'd see sections of your forces suddenly become "surrounded" with the morale hit without warning. And you would have to spread recon forces across your entire back lines to keep track of these weird tactics.

Those strange ahistorical game-y exploits are easily dealt with a visible frontline.
 
Noise only travels so far dust requires dry roads and Sig int is out of scope. The frontline accurately captures with a degree of uncertainty the region impacted. Unless you had a unit there to relay this information you would otherwise be left in the dark. War is hell and sustaining SA requires effort. The frontline eliminates said effort by supplying the player with information they would have otherwise not have known. Wargame didn't have a front line system and worked perfectly well. You should see and hear only what is within reason for your assets in play. No crystal ball feeding you a magical line denoting enemy whereabouts. Make the player make an effort to realize this instead of handing it out for free.

Perhaps instead of the frontline updating in real time it adapts to enemy's you have discovered and dynamically changes as you learn more of your opponents disposition.

von Luck
 
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It isn't 'magical' more than the zones in World in Conflict, Battlefield, and War Thunder. Sound only travels so far, so how do the people in Company of Heroes know that some German rifle squad has seized some random flag pole on the other end of the map? What about conquest points in Wargame Red Dragon, do they have some real counterpart?

I believe the frontline is going to work, and as I've said before, when I think about it I wish a couple other games like War Thunder had it, too. WT gives you so much freedom with a big map, but then puts these objectives and zones in place so that you are expected to go to these places, or you're not helping your team.

The frontline gives you the freedom to go where you want, but also gives you hints as to where the enemy is going, while still allowing you to feint or to sneak units behind enemy lines. You will still see people capturing high ground, forests, and towns, but they'll do it for actual tactical and strategic reasons, not because that spot gives them some arbitrary reward.

Seems like the best of both worlds to me.
 
Presently if you have infantry advance unseen through a forest of hedge road their movement will be revealed by the dynamically changing front line. That is silly to me. Reward the man that screens his flank and works for his reconnaissance. The concept of the whole map being valuable I have already stated is great. I look forward to fights over valuable areas instead of arbitrary zones. That said I don't want a magical line following my assets betraying their movements. I want my opponent to take the effort to learn this on his own without arbitrary aids.


von Luck
 
What's the whole point of line? You have recon. That's oversimplification as I see. You can't push without enemy knowing you are doing so with line. And you still know that enemy is doing something sneaky by looking at points grow.
 
Each player should have what they think the frontline is and this should adapt to both their units and enemy units either discovered or engaging friendly units. In this way the frontline is nebulous and still somewhat representative of what the player is experiencing. Now you can exploit an open flank and not show your hand until you are spotted or you engage. Your enemy is not forwarned of this because his lines have not changed to reflect your unexpected attack until it is upon him.


von Luck
 
vonLuck said:
And how does this help me aside from removing an ugly overlay? My opponent will still benefit from a magical source of information. This illustrates my point perfectly. With the frontline you are steadily fed information in real time as to the status of your lines without needing to man them. You know much more than if it weren't visible and you can make educated decisions based solely upon this information. I prefer this to be less obvious because before this kind of situational awareness required considerable investment in recon, attention, and game sense.
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I'd just like to point out that the front line is not a "magical source of information", it's the collected knowledge of the surrounding area from your troops on the ground. It gives no information on what troops are where. All it does is feedback information from your troops to your position as an "armchair general". You are free to ignore this information by turning the graphical element off, however it's smarter to listen to your troops.

From an "historically accurate" stand point it would be weirder to not have any kind of front line as troops did in fact report back information about their area if they were able to.

And once again, the front line does not contain perfect information in any form. Check out the replay commentary videos we streamed over the weekend for more information of the game in Neutral view.
 
cKnoor said:
I'd just like to point out that the front line is not a "magical source of information", it's the collected knowledge of the surrounding area from your troops on the ground. It gives no information on what troops are where. All it does is feedback information from your troops to your position as an "armchair general". You are free to ignore this information by turning the graphical element off, however it's smarter to listen to your troops.

From an "historically accurate" stand point it would be weirder to not have any kind of front line as troops did in fact report back information about their area if they were able to.

And once again, the front line does not contain perfect information in any form. Check out the replay commentary videos we streamed over the weekend for more information of the game in Neutral view.
Click to expand...

This makes total sense. If it works this way I hardly see a downside to it? Also it seems to be a part of the morale game design. Nowadays consumers give a hard time to games for copy pasting games and making new versions of it. Then once something actually new comes out many seem to criticise it without trying it since they are used to certain kind of way.

I think it is commendable how Eugen tried to emulate historical reality. At the end of the game what matters is how much fun of a game they made out of the historical concepts and how good it plays. So far a lot of gameplay looks good. We will give and get further feedback from the open beta.
 
cKnoor said:
I'd just like to point out that the front line is not a "magical source of information", it's the collected knowledge of the surrounding area from your troops on the ground. It gives no information on what troops are where. All it does is feedback information from your troops to your position as an "armchair general". You are free to ignore this information by turning the graphical element off, however it's smarter to listen to your troops.

From an "historically accurate" stand point it would be weirder to not have any kind of front line as troops did in fact report back information about their area if they were able to.

And once again, the front line does not contain perfect information in any form. Check out the replay commentary videos we streamed over the weekend for more information of the game in Neutral view.
Click to expand...
In addition to that / it was implied but I'm just gonna point it out directly:
The frontline does not give you information about the quantity of units. A single units at the frontline can stop it from advancing just as well as 500pts worth of units.
 
cKnoor said:
I'd just like to point out that the front line is not a "magical source of information", it's the collected knowledge of the surrounding area from your troops on the ground. It gives no information on what troops are where. All it does is feedback information from your troops to your position as an "armchair general". You are free to ignore this information by turning the graphical element off, however it's smarter to listen to your troops.
Click to expand...

So if the area in question is completely empty who is relaying the information that an enemy infantry squad is walking through a ravine to flank you? Seems like magic to me . . . ? Maybe you trained courier pigeons to perform aerial reconnaissance? Literally the information being relayed by a bulge in your line is coming from nowhere. There is no justification for this in my eyes! If you want to know what's happening on your flank maybe you should screen it! It's absurd to think that you should know whats happening in a region where you haven't parked a single unit! Make people screen their flanks don't give them free intel!


cKnoor said:
From an "historically accurate" stand point it would be weirder to not have any kind of front line as troops did in fact report back information about their area if they were able to.
And once again, the front line does not contain perfect information in any form. Check out the replay commentary videos we streamed over the weekend for more information of the game in Neutral view.
Click to expand...


What's more weird is that your command has a crystal ball that feeds him information about regions of his front in which he hasn't bothered to secure or even screen with recon. Magically he knows the enemy is exploiting his vast empty front and he can react accordingly. That's bizarre to me! I have watched the video's and they are expressly why I am gravely concerned this game has trivialized screening and recon. This is on the level of kiddy wheels on a bike - you should have learned how to screen units in EE, or ALB, or RD. It's one of the most important things you needed to do in Wargame - why is this ridiculous omnipotent line baked into the game? Use this to show people why it's important but for the love of god please change this for serious games.

Razzmann said:
In addition to that / it was implied but I'm just gonna point it out directly:
The frontline does not give you information about the quantity of units. A single units at the frontline can stop it from advancing just as well as 500pts worth of units.
Click to expand...

The front line may not reveal the quantity of units within it but it sure as hell lets you know quick fast and in a hurry that your flank has been turned. Its egregious to me that this information is provided free of any effort on the players behalf. If you wanted to know your flank had been turned maybe you should have parked a unit there to screen it.

von Luck
 
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It looks more like it responds to the number of units and maybe thier sight but I have no idea, have not got to try it. What maybe is not present but can be represented by the front line is Field of View or that classic Fog of War so the player can visually identyfiy where they are not. So you can recongize your own vision envelope. Or maybe it will create a situation of building up forces slightly behind the front to unleash large offensive quickly before the other team considers it an actual attack. Other than that large Surprise would be difficult. Only some sneaky recon and AT weapons. Kinda like how some one may have an opportunity too save up for a phase if they don't plan to push in phase A or B. Dynamic front line seems like a good way to figure out how to play the units and maps, also I don't doubt type of unit maybe may effect how much zone it controls. However this may not be immedietly evident what units influnce the line to what extent/ rate.
 
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I think this has nothing to do with historical or accuracy issues. This is a game design decision: they wanted to create something unique and very different from the likes of an RTS like COH or from the Wargame series. So no flags or artificial zones to capture but rather a moving front to advance deep into enemy lines. It will have to be judged on his own merits taking into consideration the fact that every game has abstractions and has to give some concessions to game design paying with realism and historical authenticity.
 
Czeekaj said:
It looks more like it responds to the number of units and maybe their sight but I have no idea, have not got to try it.
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If I recall correctly they mentioned in this video* that how far a unit can see does have an effect on how far the front line will move. So if I recall correctly they said that tanks won't typically move the front line much since they don't have great view range however infantry, which have decent view range, will move the front line more.

*
 
vonLuck said:
I prefer this to be less obvious because before this kind of situational awareness required considerable investment in recon, attention, and game sense.
Click to expand...

As someone, who actually plays this game, as i bought it, i can tell you, that it takes a resonable investment in recon, situational awareness and attention nevertheless.
Even if you know, there is something, where the frontline moves, you have to know what it is. It could be one lonely infantry squad, or a mighty tank column, that is about to destroy you, cause you can't react quick enough to them. The frontline system is rather a really nice little tool, that sais: "you need more recon there, to know, if that could get dangerous", than some replacement for recon or good situational awareness.

As far as i can tell, only by considering the frontline and no recon, you are lost, because you don't know at time where to place your troops effectively.
Plus the frontline isn't very accurate. When an ennemy unit pushes up, and you have no unit, that stays on the other side of the frontline, it could be pushed very far, although the ennemy unit never pushed as far, as the frontline moved. With that in mind, you can only tell very inaccurately, where an ennemy unit could be.
 
Whatever - if you want your hands held to play this so be it. Personally I prefer a game that doesn't provide this silly aid. If you want to know of enemy movement you should screen and reconnoiter on your own. Allowing the game to reveal enemy movements without any involvement from the player is incomprehensible to me. Hopefully the next cold war wargame will have a few of team nice toys revealed here sans the magical line.

von Luck
 
The answer to the OP question is yes the game does need the magic red/blue line. Having spent some time on the beta I will point out that in most games with more the 2 a side I have found myself 'sucked into the game' micromanaging a section of the front....not even all of my own frontage causing me to miss telltale bulges in the line. The AI can be very punishing.
 
Something important to remember, scout units do NOT affect the front-line! some decks have scout units that are very combat capable and I've been ruined and have ruined players in matches by baiting an advance into "Empty" areas before responding with ambushes, artillery and a swift counterattack.
 
You honestly cant play the game without seeing the frontline, it will simply turn into a game of using vehicles and letting them travel around the map in hope of gaining territory.

If you wanna play with your own made up frontlines then go ahead but what will stop me from sneaking through and completely changing the game's frontline without you knowing so? And how will you recover if you cant see what to conquer in order to restore that frontline?
 
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