Dynamic division organisation using "Very Long Range Submarine" style events

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Zsar1

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We currently model different division compositions via two distinct tech paths along a 6-battalion vs. 9-battalion organisation.
Historically, however, countries did change such compositions inbetween 1936-1953. Most notably:
  • GER - from 9bn to 6bn Infantry (Volksgrenadier-Division) in 1944
  • ITA - from 9bn to 6bn in 1938/1939 (Ordinamento Pariani) and from 6bn to 9bn (actually 8bn) in 1940
  • JAP - from 12bn to 9bn in 1938
As the "Very Long Range Submarine" events demonstrate, we can activate models via event. Therefore, I propose to merge the technology paths into one and have events with choices activate the corresponding models.

We cannot, unfortunately, trigger events directly from technology effects, so the elegant method of activating all models of a year via tech and making those unused obsolete in the following event does not quite work out (unless a short ~1 day period of being able to build all models of a year can be deemed acceptable).

Instead, keeping all model activations out of the technology, the corresponding generic events would look like this:
Code:
event = {
  id = 
  random = no
  persistent = yes

  trigger = {
    NOT = {
      # to allow specific countries to use specific AI weights
      local_flag = INF1935_specific_choice
      # to prevent from happening again once choice is made
      local_flag = INF1935_6bn
      local_flag = INF1935_9bn
    }
    # to ensure that the generic choice is always the same
    local_flag = INF1930_6bn
    # unified Infantry Division technology
    technology = 1150 # 1935 Infantry Division Organisation
  }

  name = "1935 Infantry Division Organisation"
  desc = "How many battalions should form the core of our new infantry divisions?"
  style = 0

  date = { hour = 12 day = 0 month = january year = 1934 } # one year before historical should suffice
  offset = 31 # not quite one month to spread the load
  deathdate = { hour = 10 day = 29 month = december year = 1953 }

  action_a = {
    ai_chance = 100
    name = "Six Battalions"
    # all 1935 models
    command = { type = new_model which = infantry value =  1 }
    command = { type = new_model which = infantry value = 11 }
    # all 1930 models
    command = { type = scrap_model which = infantry value =  0 }
    command = { type = scrap_model which = infantry value = 10 }
    # the not-chosen 1935 model
    command = { type = scrap_model which = infantry value = 11 }
    # the flag for the next event
    command = { type = local_setflag which = INF1935_6bn }
  }

  action_b = {
    name = "Nine Battalions"
    command = { type = new_model which = infantry value =  1 }
    command = { type = new_model which = infantry value = 11 }
    command = { type = scrap_model which = infantry value =  0 }
    command = { type = scrap_model which = infantry value = 10 }
    command = { type = scrap_model which = infantry value =  1 }
    command = { type = local_setflag which = INF1935_9bn }
  }
}
Code:
event = {
  id = 
  random = no
  persistent = yes

  trigger = {
    NOT = {
      local_flag = INF1935_specific_choice
      local_flag = INF1935_6bn
      local_flag = INF1935_9bn
    }
    local_flag = INF1930_9bn
    technology = 1150 # 1935 Infantry Division Organisation
  }

  name = "1935 Infantry Division Organisation"
  desc = "How many battalions should form the core of our new infantry divisions?"
  style = 0

  date = { hour = 12 day = 1 month = january year = 1934 } # another day than the other one
  offset = 31
  deathdate = { hour = 10 day = 29 month = december year = 1953 }

  action_a = {
    ai_chance = 100
    name = "Nine Battalions"
    # all 1935 models
    command = { type = new_model which = infantry value =  1 }
    command = { type = new_model which = infantry value = 11 }
    # all 1930 models
    command = { type = scrap_model which = infantry value =  0 }
    command = { type = scrap_model which = infantry value = 10 }
    # the not-chosen 1935 model
    command = { type = scrap_model which = infantry value =  1 }
    command = { type = local_setflag which = INF1935_9bn }
  }

  action_b = {
    name = "Six Battalions"
    command = { type = new_model which = infantry value =  1 }
    command = { type = new_model which = infantry value = 11 }
    command = { type = scrap_model which = infantry value =  0 }
    command = { type = scrap_model which = infantry value = 10 }
    command = { type = scrap_model which = infantry value = 11 }
    command = { type = local_setflag which = INF1935_6bn }
  }
}
These two events per technology would suffice for all countries which do not switch organisation during the scenario time.
Setting the INF<year>_specific_choice flag then allows a country which should do so to switch appropriately:
Code:
event = {
  id = 
  random = no
  country = GER

  trigger = {
    local_flag = INF1943_specific_choice
    # NOT not necessary, as specific event is not persistent

    # unified Infantry Division technology
    technology = 1230 # 1943 Infantry Division Organisation
  }

  name = "Volksgrenadiere"
  desc = "Dwindling manpower pushes the Reich into organising its new Divisions in smaller scale than before."
  style = 0

  date = { hour = 12 day = 2 month = january year = 1942 } # one year before historical should suffice; neither day of the generic events
  offset = 31
  deathdate = { hour = 10 day = 29 month = december year = 1953 }

  action_a = {
    ai_chance = 80
    name = "Form Volksgrenadier-Divisions with one less Battalion per Regiment to conserve manpower."
    # all 1943 models
    command = { type = new_model which = infantry value =  3 }
    command = { type = new_model which = infantry value = 13 }
    # all 1939 models
    command = { type = scrap_model which = infantry value =  2 }
    command = { type = scrap_model which = infantry value = 12 }
    # the not-chosen 1939 model
    command = { type = scrap_model which = infantry value = 13 }
    # the flag for the next event
    command = { type = local_setflag which = INF1947_6bn }
  }

  action_b = {
    ai_chance = 20
    name = "No, smaller units will suffer higher casulties."
    command = { type = local_clrflag which = INF1943_specific_choice }
  }
}
Of course, such specific events may then gain additional trigger conditions, so that a more successful GER may choose not to switch.

With the need to deploy one technology path per division size, we might also have the space to actually represent 8bn and 12bn divisions with their individual models.
 

ArmdChair

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I don't have all my info with me, but the larger the division (for most countries), the clunkier the Command & Control of that unit. Large units were slow, cumbersome and tangled during marches. The main benefit was in sustained, fixed combat which most major countries were trying to get away from.

Now, a successful Germany NOT going to 6bn would be a good idea, if it doesn't become too cumbersome for the AI to manage.

The Japanese used the regiments removed from the large, square divisions to create the new cadres for the divisions that appeared around that time. Their Command and Control was clunky with the larger divisions, but they changed more for the additional number of divisions rather than for improvements in structure. More divisions equals more divisional commanders, which was a whole different animal, as it were.
 

dec152000

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Hi,

One needs to remember that Infantry type units are the building blocks of the game armies. So something that is ok for a niche unit like the VLR Submarine may not work out here. Also, Land units upgrade and LR Submarines do not. So any design here has to work around the upgrade process and the AI building process. This idea might work. However:

Upgrade process: Having a mix of "x" and "1x" models will require a very complicated upgrade time scheme if it even works right. This is due to the fact that units multiple levels obsolete get discounts for upgrade. So an upgrade to a 6 Bn type would be essentially free if a 9 Bn type is the baseline. I don't think there is a way to make it work. See naval_sa_l for an example of that process in use.

AI Build: AI only build the highest available. But we need to be able to get the AI to go "backwards" if we want 6 after 9. Since the AI tends to extend existing builds I'm not sure how this would work. Especially if all of the "9" models are scrapped. '

Anyways, this is something I did a lot of thinking on but never attempted to code as it is so cumbersome. I'm not sure the pay off is worth the effort even if it does work as there is so much testing required to get an option that in game is really not valuable to a player other than for historical accuracy. MEaning in game I'd almost always prefer the 9 BN path/units to the 6 Bn path. This is even more so with AoD d2 the stacking penalties. If you want to try testing it that is fine. But I see this as problematic.

One last bit is the Japanese Square to Triangle is pretty much covered with using Infantry Attachments. This also partially covers the Italian use of Blackshirts.

mm
 

Zsar1

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Upgrade process: Having a mix of "x" and "1x" models will require a very complicated upgrade time scheme if it even works right. This is due to the fact that units multiple levels obsolete get discounts for upgrade. So an upgrade to a 6 Bn type would be essentially free if a 9 Bn type is the baseline. I don't think there is a way to make it work. See naval_sa_l for an example of that process in use.
Should I mention that right now this is how the techs are set up?
"1935 Infantry Division Organisation (6 Battalion)" enables both 6bn and 9bn models and immediately renders 9bn models obsolete.
- If the upgrading costs are discounted from that, the effect does not seem to be too obvious.

AI Build: AI only build the highest available. But we need to be able to get the AI to go "backwards" if we want 6 after 9. Since the AI tends to extend existing builds I'm not sure how this would work. Especially if all of the "9" models are scrapped.
I would deem this agreeable enough. The AI does not seem to be willing to extend lines indefinitely, but I sure have no idea how it decides about it. Lengths of 3 and 5 units (after extension) seem to be the most common, but every now and then it seems to go for more.

One last bit is the Japanese Square to Triangle is pretty much covered with using Infantry Attachments. This also partially covers the Italian use of Blackshirts.
Of course, adding artillery to a square does not work out in this way. Similarly, the Blackshirt attachments do not seem to be supposed to be attachments but parts of a new division core after the "Binary Division" had failed its purpose.
I do not think that this is worth griping about, but did want to mention that we can improve upon it "for free" if we go this path.
 

dec152000

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Hi,

Upgrade: I didn't do that coding and wasn't actually aware it had been changed to read that way. Need to confirm how it is really working for those 6 BN nations.

AI build: I'm seeing Infantry runs up to 12 in my current game. After the mobilization occurs the build process is rather set in place. I'd add that by 1943 GER almost nevr has any MP to initiate new builds of high MP units.

Attachments: Agree that it would be a bit nicer. If everything else is equal it is a nice way to go.

mm
 

Zsar1

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AI build: I'm seeing Infantry runs up to 12 in my current game. After the mobilization occurs the build process is rather set in place. I'd add that by 1943 GER almost nevr has any MP to initiate new builds of high MP units.
GERs MP seems to be about right then, does it not?
I had in the past stated that the sheer size of GER's production is a problem regarding bound MP, but there is not really much we can do about it - and I do not think it plays a part in this particular discussion; I would find it very odd if a battalion switch occured immediately and totally.

... Cursory examination of GER's AI files shows that it has batch lengths of 770 days. As GER in many stages of the war does not build naval units or the more expensive aircraft kinds, so we could probably cut down on that somewhat and this should help a bit. I am somewhat sure though, that the AI does not keep too strictly to that value when extending lines (or at least that the value delimited is open line, not total line; which is sensible, I suppose).
- Even for tank divisions, a value closer to 1.5 years aka 540 should suffice.
 

dec152000

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Hi,

I tested the current upgrade scheme for the 6 BN nations and it is working fine. However, I think that it does so because the 9 BN models are scrapped. I'm still afraisdthere will be issues with upgrading if both a 6 BN and a 9 BN uograde are available at the same time.

MP: Actually it still seemed a bit low as I've seen GER completely out of MP in 1941 which is too early. For 0.70 I've added some more MP to simulate the historical use of western POW's as labor. This freed up a substantialy amount of manpower historically. We'll see what that does. Also add some fuel rationing events that slightly lower IE. Not fully tested yet.

AI Build Length: Yes, the AI seems to ignore these in some fashion. I'm seeing GER setting up lines of 0/3 * BB with the 770 limit. That obviously doesn't make sense. Plus very long lines of all other types. IMO there is a delicate balance here. Shortere lines end up being less efficient and less like how most players build things. OTOH, they allow a bit better discrimination on the build mix as a long line sometimes generates too many of a unit type. the current values are generally designed around these thoughts. But they certainly could be reviewed.

mm
 

Zsar1

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Ah, yes, the battleships. AI seems to ignore the limit, if it is less than one piece of unit would need and then defaults to a three-piece entry.
What I meant is to shorten the line at a time after GER builds its BBs as at some point it completely stops building any capital ship type - and then the lines may be shorter. We may just as well leave it as is for the moment, it is hardly among the highly important issues.
... Apropos GER changes, does it seem necessary to improve GERs position currently? That did not seem to be the case to me and we may end up having to strenghten SOV in turn, if it upsets the balance (but then: the balance is not yet optimal).

I did not mean for different #bn types to be available simultaneously, only that when the next generation of division comes around, the choice between those numbers may be switched.
So, ITA may decide to use 6bn 1935 Infantry and then be unable to produce 9bn Infantry. Come 1939 organisation, it may choose to use 9bn 1939 Infantry and then be unable to produce 6bn Infantry (aside from extended existing lines).
 

dec152000

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Hi,

BB: What I actually saw it do was build a line of 2 in one test and a line of 3 in another test. So I'm not sure sure it just does 3 as a default. But I think shortening the lines is not necessarily a good thing IC wise.

Balance: Actually I've been seeing GER failing ahistorically in most of my tests. So I've made some corrections to try and help.

6/9 BN: I forget if the upgrade process works correctly to Scrapped models. You tried that out yet?

mm
 

Dichromate

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I'm really not sure it's worth it - in darkest hour stuff like this could be implemented by decisions, but the way CORE and AoD works I'd think it'd be too difficult to implement the ability to make such a change during the game.

What happens for instance when a country with say, twenty 9-battalion infantry divisions switches to 6 battalion?

- do they get an extra 10 divisions as a result of the switch? cause that was basically the gist of what Italy did, and Darkest Hour actually does this with a decision.

or

- when their previously 9 battalion divisions become 6 battalion, if they don't get extra divisions (which AFAIK probably isn't possible in AoD) what happens to the extra manpower that's presently part of the 9 battalion divisions? is it possible to get that back? because it'd be pretty bad if it just disappeared.

It really seems to me that given the engine, having 6 and 9 battalion divisions is about as good as it can get for AoD, and that switching between them would cause a bunch of problems that'd be a pain to deal with.
 

Zsar1

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Ah, I do not think you have grasped the limits of my proposal...

What happens for instance when a country with say, twenty 9-battalion infantry divisions switches to 6 battalion?
Nothing.
- when their previously 9 battalion divisions become 6 battalion [...]
That does not happen.

As you correctly state, we lack the fine grained control to actually replace divisions, but we can ensure that further divisions are produced at appropriate sizes.
While this certainly does no good justice to the italian and japanese reorganisations, it fits the german Volksgrenadierdivision well enough.

It is also a cheap way to introduce variety into the scenario by presenting additional choices to the player.
I am, for example, not convinced that going 9bn would be clearly beneficial for ITA. It would likely struggle to deploy the necessary numbers; careful planning, however, can leave it with a small stock of 9bn divisions for a "main frontline", while 6bn divisions try to fill the gaps everywhere else. ... I typically fail to deploy my desired number of divisions already and 9bn divisions will not help that; the choice is not simple, the execution requires skill. This I deem nice.

For some countries the choice would be obvious, of course. GER comes to mind... or does it? Mayhap the Atlantic Wall could do with 6bn divisions, or... understrength forces there did not work out too well in history.

There are only a handful of countries, for which the choice seems obvious. Everyone below 2 IC wants 6bn (actually, MEN does not). ENG and USA want 9bn. The rest? Uncertain, I dare say.

- It may still not be worth it. But then again, we cannot keep up producing content with its consumption. We need means for our generated content to recombine on its own into additional situations. Given the flags, this system may be remote controlled in the future, say by different AI strategies (but those are much more work and take much more time and are much harder to fine-tune; We do not even have a single complete war-spanning AI strategy for any one country!).
 
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