Dutch revolts - province based

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Unless you think getting 8 Union of Arras (or whichever event you like) events is a good idea. I've avoided that, but maybe I shouldn't.

 

[Chengar Qordath]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Unless you think getting 8 Union of Arras (or whichever event you like) events is a good idea. I've avoided that, but maybe I shouldn't.

It's not really that vital to gameplay to do things on a province by province basis. If you want to you have my support, but it might really be more effort than it's worth.

By the way, apparently the new events don't work with the latest beta patch, it gave me two database mismatch errors. Don't know if it's a real problem or not, since I use other mods as well, but I thought you should know...

 

[unmerged(6159)]

It may be that the event files for ENG, BUR and all have changed - I'm not using any event ID that aren't free.

I'll look into it, but my plan is to make it compatible with the release, not with the beta. There are no ID conflicts with 1.07. (At least when I test it)

For the cores it IS necessary to do it on a province by province basis or all the countries that 'beat' the revolt will get CB shields on each other, which doesn't make much sense.

I had another idea though - maybe you should just get one core in the Netherlands, and everyone who 'defeated' the Dutch revolts gets one core. The order (if you own more than one) would be
-Brabant (administrative capital of the Netherlands before the revolt)
-Flanders (economic capital of the Netherlands before the revolt)
-Holland (for obvious reasons)
-Zeeland
-Artois
-Luxembourg
-Gelre
-Friesen

(the ordering of the last four being chosen largely so as not to help out France too much. The choice there is very arbitrary).

This is easily implemented, and is a bigger benefit than what you currrently get.

 

[Chengar Qordath]

The core idea sounds good to me.

Johan did change the dutch revolts some in the latest beta, so that explains the problem. It makes sense to only have the events be compatible with official releases.

 

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The dutch revolt events will now produce several revolts as well as revoltrisk.

Thanks for pointing this out. It shouldn't account for the ID conflict - more likely changes in the majors event files (which I have changed by removing the Dutch revolts) are to blame.

 

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Hi

Good work with the events, always good if it si more likely for the Dutch the form

Anyways Here I've got some more general text descriptions for the events. Basicly a rewrite of the spanish text with the specific spanish names cut out or replaced.

Dutch Nobility demands General Estates

In 1566 Dutch Nobles came to the king in an effort to stop the persecution of the Inquisition and to let the General Estates convene. The only answer they get is from the Count de Barlaymont saying 'Ce Gueux' (These Beggars!) in a spiteful voice. The Dutch take to that name with pride calling themselves 'The Gueses'. One of the effects of the insulting denial is that in several cities churches are stormed destroying relics and paintings. Knowing the effect on the king William of Oranien try to stop these acts of violence, but it's futile. The grass has caught fire...

Edict of Blood

In 1567 elite troops were brought in determined to break the Dutch Insurrection. The Edict of Blood was issued, which allowed the army to create a harsh military dictatorship with mass-arrests and courts of honour as a daily routine. The Terror of the Inquisition was intensified and hundreds of people were executed. In 1568 the counts of Hoorn and Egmont were arrested and executed making William of Oranien the only leader left to take up the flag. In 1570 the army introduced a 10 percent tax even as the Dutch had paid a two-year tax that the General estates had agreed upon on the promise of no more extra taxes. A General Strike spread in the Netherlands...In 1573 it was clear that the elite army had failed to subjugate the Dutch.

Union of Arras

After the failure of the Edict of Blood a more humane policy was adopted. It was understood that the Netherlands could only be kept in the country if the wishes of the catholic provinces were agreed upon. In 1579 the union of Arras was signed with some of the southern catholic provinces, which their rebellion. However some of the Northern provinces then created the Union of Utrecht, the first sign of a new country.

The Repatriation of the Netherlands

After a number of failures in the 1590's and during the first decades of the 17th century the Thirty Years War started and the Catholics took up the offensive in the Netherlands again. Victory after victory was won. The Dutch again tried to open their walls and flood their enemy, but it backfired and they lost more than 10000 elite troops in the events. The Catholics let the people bear the costs of war. Thus the majority of the Dutch in the united provinces lost all their money and wealth, which was used paying for the upkeep of the Catholic troops. In 1625 Breda capitulated to the Catholics, the Dutch took Grol in 1627, but it was taken back within 6 months and as well as Nijmegen while one of the German armies had now moved into Geldern from Münster and effectively threatened Utrecht. But the best was yet to come. In a nightly sea battle the Catholic navy managed to win and land 12000 men in Zeeland, within a year control was regained of the quarrelsome subjects. During the years until the Westphalian Peace all non-Catholics were harshly subjugate. Catholics were given strong preferences in all areas and they also got local self-governance. Many Calvinist left for South Africa and South-East Asia. At the Westphalian Peace in 1648 the world at last acknowledged our rightful rule in the Netherlands.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Cool, thanks. Saves me a fair amount of work.

I was going to make it "Ces Gueux", as that's proper French. Does "the Gueses" make sense? All the English accounts I've read use either the French term (Gueux) or just "beggars".

More later.

 

[unmerged(11202)]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Cool, thanks. Saves me a fair amount of work.

I was going to make it "Ces Gueux", as that's proper French. Does "the Gueses" make sense? All the English accounts I've read use either the French term (Gueux) or just "beggars".

More later.

The Gueses makes little sense I think, should be the Geuses imo, but using the term beggars is perhaps possible for the Watergeuzen, aka Seabeggars. Ces Gueux is a good alternative as well. But the whole topic on what term to use is not that important .

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Next version

I've added some stuff and am currently testing. I'd like feedback if at all possible.

Changes I'm working on
-Adding Ironfoundersson's text (Thanks)
-Changing the trigger for 'Dutch Nobles Demand General Estates' to allow 0 decentralized protestants to avoid it. (I checked my savefile and there are a decent number of AI protestants at 0. Couldn't put the threshold any higher without impeding the revolts)
-Force Dutch minors to cede provinces to the Netherlands that are not their capital
-Change the event that ceded Holland to the Netherlands so that only U10 (County of Holland in EEP and AGC) is excluded. (basically a placeholder for later). I want the Amsterdam COT for the revolters, so they need to get Holland province.
-Creation of the Dutch Republic (HOL event) trigger and event to inherit U10 in addition to FRI, GEL, HAU and FLA
-Change trigger for creation of the Dutch Republic (HOL event) now requires that the event ceding Holland has happened, OR Holland is owned, OR U10 exisits. Also to ensure that they get the COT
-Added troops to Creation of Dutch Republic as per Alkars plan. Would probably be a seperate event for the EEP.
-Added one single core province per country if the Dutch revolts are sucessfully put down
-Closed a hole whereby Austria can give up it's core on Franche Comte in the abdication of Charles V and keep cores on the Netherlands. (This actually happened in a test of some other changes, and I had all sorts of trouble figuring out why the events had not fired. )

 

[Chengar Qordath]

The changes sound good to me.

 

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Ironfoundersson

It turns out that last text was too long to fit in the file, and I prefer not to mess with text.csv. So I'm using:

During the first decades of the 17th century the Thirty Years War started and the Catholics took up the offensive in the Netherlands. Victory after victory was won. The Dutch again opened the dykes to flood the enemy, but it backfired and they lost over 10000 elite troops. In 1625 Breda capitulated, and in 1627 Nijmegen fell, while a German army moved into Geldern and threatened Utrecht. But the best was yet to come. After winning a night time sea battle the Catholic navy landed 12000 men in Zeeland, and within a year control was regained over the quarrelsome subjects. Until the Peace of Westphalia all non-Catholics were subpressed. Catholics were given preferment and local self-governance. Many Calvinist left the Netherlands. In 1648 the world at last acknowledged our rightful rule in the Netherlands.

I even fixed some of the English! (nightly fighting means fighting every night, it's the dykes that were opened to flood invaders)

I still need text for the Repatriation of the Netherlands if the Dutch suceed (this is a problem for Paradox too, right now you get the above text even if you achieve the historical result!).

Testing continues.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Test observations

I had a test where the Netherlands declared independence in Holland. Zeeland was ceded by England, Gelre by Sweden, and Friesland was then inherited by the Netherlands. So far so good. As Austria I then conquer the entire country and take all the provinces bar Holland. This immediately triggers the 'Dutch Independence' event for Friesland (Friesland couldn't get it as they are exempt). I cede Friesland to the Dutch which they get for free twice.

So I've added a trigger to the cession events requiring the the appropriate inherit event did not happen.

You'll still have to cede the province if the Netherlands revolts with Friesland (say) as an initial province and you reconquer it. I'm not sure what to do about that problem. The cession events for Friesland Gelre and Zeeland could be triggered by event 3900 (Creation of the Dutch Republic) but the event for Holland really can't be as we want Holland to be ceded BEFORE the COT opens there and the capital moves there. I don't have a good idea on how to prevent this from happening. (It happens in the current set up too, so it isn't a problem that I've introduced. Still I'd like to fix it.)

Spain got the event removing all her cores even though she never had any in one of my tests. So I've added core triggers onto the event that removes the cores.

I'm thinking about the Repatriation of the Netherlands (Dutch Sucessful) events. As of right now I adhere to the Paradox approach - the revolts last until 1648 regardless. However, they've done this because there is only one event to turn off the revolts, and obviously you shouldn't get the goodies from suppressing the revolts unless you've fought them for a while.

I could stop the revolts when the Dutch become independent. This will obviously hurt the newly independent state as their opressors won't be distracted by revolts in the Southern Netherlands. But it makes a certain amount of sense - and in reality there wasn't unrest in the Southern Netherlands after the Union of Arras, and certainly not after the Twelve Year's Truce.

Possibly the Repatriation of the Netherlands (Dutch Sucessful) could go off any time after 1609, if the Dutch exist. The Repatriation of the Netherlands (Revolt Supressed) will only go off in 1648 regardless. This is the one that converts Flanders and grants a core.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Re: Test observations

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
You'll still have to cede the province if the Netherlands revolts with Friesland (say) as an initial province and you reconquer it. I'm not sure what to do about that problem. The cession events for Friesland Gelre and Zeeland could be triggered by event 3900 (Creation of the Dutch Republic) but the event for Holland really can't be as we want Holland to be ceded BEFORE the COT opens there and the capital moves there. I don't have a good idea on how to prevent this from happening. (It happens in the current set up too, so it isn't a problem that I've introduced. Still I'd like to fix it.)

What about this idea: There is an event for each province that the Netherlands can form out of, with the triggers being that the given province is owned by the Netherlands and that none of the events that would have forced another state to cede the province to the Netherlands would have occurred. This should ensure that the event(s) would only happen if the province was among the initial provinces that formed the Netherlands. Then, each event that does occur would sleep all of the possible succession events, so that they don't occur if the province is recaptured by someone else. The event wouldn't actually do anything for the Netherlands itself, but I think it would solve this problem (as long as I am understanding the problem correctly). Hopefully that makes sense.

The only problem I envision would be to ensure that these events don't trigger later if the Dutch gain provinces by war or annexation. Perhaps one of the later Dutch events could sleep them? Either way, I think some way could be found around it.

This wouldn't be the most elegant solution, but I think it might do the trick.

 

[unmerged(9404)]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Ironfoundersson

It turns out that last text was too long to fit in the file, and I prefer not to mess with text.csv. So I'm using:


I even fixed some of the English! (nightly fighting means fighting every night, it's the dykes that were opened to flood invaders)

I still need text for the Repatriation of the Netherlands if the Dutch suceed (this is a problem for Paradox too, right now you get the above text even if you achieve the historical result!).

Testing continues.

OK

The text on the repatriation of the netherlands when the dutch are succesfull could have the same setup, description of some crucial battles, the treaty of Westphalen. I will try to do something in the weekend.

What is the maximum character length of the event text?

I'm thinking about the Repatriation of the Netherlands (Dutch Sucessful) events. As of right now I adhere to the Paradox approach - the revolts last until 1648 regardless. However, they've done this because there is only one event to turn off the revolts, and obviously you shouldn't get the goodies from suppressing the revolts unless you've fought them for a while.

Maybe it is a good idea to have this event fire when the dutch revolt is succesfull but with a very large off set so it is likely that the southern provinces will rebel for a bit longer.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Originally posted by Ironfoundersson

The text on the repatriation of the netherlands when the dutch are succesfull could have the same setup, description of some crucial battles, the treaty of Westphalen. I will try to do something in the weekend.

Only the real battles, not the fictitious ones in the text!

Maybe it is a good idea to have this event fire when the dutch revolt is succesfull but with a very large off set so it is likely that the southern provinces will rebel for a bit longer.

This is a good idea, but I try not to use long offsets, for the simple reason they they will all fire on a reload. I dislike that.

I'm thinking of working through JC's suggestion. I'll have the events drop the population, so that there is some realistic effect.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

What about increasing the forts when the Dutch take over? Just a thought - certainly not much historical justification, but it will help the Dutch make it. (Ref: idea originally Fate's, but I (sort of) came up with it independently)

I'm also considering changing the revolt file:

HOL = {
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1559 }
expirydate = { day = 31 month = december year = 1820 }
minimum = { 337 339 338 340 }
extra = { 377 379 378 380 }
capital = 339
group = latin
ai = "Holland.ai"
}

Basically adding the rest of the Netherlands for a 'pacification of Ghent' type government. I don't see why the southern provinces couldn't have been part of the Netherlands. What does anyone think?

 

[Chengar Qordath]

Sounds like a good idea to me.

 

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Here's how it looks now

So the Friesland event is:

[COLOR=skyblue]
#Freisen
event = {
	id = 186001
	trigger = {
		owned = { province = 337 data = HOL } #Freisen - if they ever own 
#Friesen they never will have it ceded to them
		}
	random = no
	country = HOL
	name = "Wartime devastation of Freisland"
	desc = "The Dutch revolts involved many sieges, all of which 
were devastating to the urban populace of the Low Countries."
	style = 2

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1559 }
	offset = 5
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1648 }

	action_a = { # Alas
		name = "Alas"
		command = { type = population   which = 337 value = -1000 }
		command = { type = sleepevent   which = 337044 }
	}
}
[/COLOR]

The others are the same but with bigger population losses for Holland and Zeeland. The secede event is now

[COLOR=skyblue]
#The Dutch Revolt is successful!# Friesland version
event = {
	id = 337044
	trigger = {
		NOT = {
			AND = {
				NOT = {
					OR = {
						core = { province = 387 data = -1 } #Franche Comte-not 
#exempt FRA, SPA, BUR and HAB#
						core = { province = 371 data = -1 } #Tyrol, 
plugs a hole for HAB
						}
					}
				core = { province = 337 data = -1 } # exempt FRI#
				}
			}
		exists = HOL
		flag = DutGenEst
		NOT = { event = 3808 } # Freisland joins the Netherlands
		NOT = { event = 186001 }#Freisland was owned by the Netherlands
	}
	random = no
	province = 337 #Friesen
	name = "EVENTNAME3814" #need to change text
	desc = "EVENTHIST3814"
	style = 2

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1555 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1648 }

     action_a = { # Curses!
         name = "ACTIONNAME3814A"
         command = { type = secedeprovince which = HOL value = 337 }
	        command = { type = casusbelli   which = HOL value = 24 }
         }
}
[/COLOR]

All the others are the same (obviously the event numbers are different), with the exception that Holland has a looser trigger.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Any opinions on...?

Things that are unresolved right now
-I should produce some back up events to ensure the revolts can't be avoided by losing provinces.
-Is it OK that everyone get 300d from the Dutch Nobles Demand General Estates whether they own one province or 8? This is how Paradox does it. (I think yes)
-I need country neutral text for the Repatriation of the Netherlands (Dutch sucessful) version
-Is it OK to allow protestant/reformed countries to avoid the revolts by being at centralization 0? (I think yes)
-Should the revolts in the rest of the Netherlands be ended early if HOL forms? (RR in Dutch provinces will be reset even if they are reconquered.) Upon Dutch independence? With a long offset? In 1609? (I'm inclined to 1609)
-Should forts be increased when the Dutch first get a province? (I'm totally on the fence about this one)
-Should the Netherlands form with (rebel held) Artois, Brabant, Flanders, and Luxembourg? I know they could in EUI, anyone know why this might have been changed? (I believe that this makes sense.)

 

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-Is it OK to allow protestant/reformed countries to avoid the revolts by being at centralization 0? (I think yes)

Yes the revolts were against the centralization efforts of the Spanish and the religious suppression. With the latter taking the overhand in the later stages of the revolt. Maybe the centralization requirment could be a bit higher (I don't know what the general level of centralization is of the surrounding neighbours)

-Should the revolts in the rest of the Netherlands be ended early if HOL forms? (RR in Dutch provinces will be reset even if they are reconquered.) Upon Dutch independence? With a long offset? In 1609? (I'm inclined to 1609)

I think after 1609 with a medium offset, I don't think it is logical if the RR immediatly resides when HOL has revolted.

-Should forts be increased when the Dutch first get a province? (I'm totally on the fence about this one)

As the provinces are probably taken by rebels and retaken by the proper owners a few times I think it is save to assume that the forts are down to minimal. So an increase will give HOL a better chance of survival.

-Should the Netherlands form with (rebel held) Artois, Brabant, Flanders, and Luxembourg? I know they could in EUI, anyone know why this might have been changed? (I believe that this makes sense.)

Artois and Luxemburg definately not (they weren't really into the revolts) Flanders should (thats where the first major revolts started), Brabant I don't know, I think yes.

-I need country neutral text for the Repatriation of the Netherlands (Dutch sucessful) version

Will work on that


Are you using the remove cot command to remove the flanders cot for the Holland cot?