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Mohobbit

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I have vip3 installed and would like to play as the D.E.I. but the problem is that the only national culture is Dutch???:wacko: That makes no sense since
the nation is mostly Javan and Malay, in fact by 1880 the amount of dutch
in the nation does not even register in the population.This makes it impossible
to build any factories or capitalists.:eek: I think this nation has the potential to be #1 since I was able to reach #11 even with no factories and having to build all of the railroads myself. Did I give up too soon or is this something that needs to be fixed?:confused:
 

OHgamer

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I have vip3 installed and would like to play as the D.E.I. but the problem is that the only national culture is Dutch???:wacko: That makes no sense since
the nation is mostly Javan and Malay, in fact by 1880 the amount of dutch
in the nation does not even register in the population.This makes it impossible
to build any factories or capitalists.:eek: I think this nation has the potential to be #1 since I was able to reach #11 even with no factories and having to build all of the railroads myself. Did I give up too soon or is this something that needs to be fixed?:confused:

that is exactly why it has Dutch only, DEI is meant to replicate the colonial experience. Colonies were NOT expected to become industrial centers, they were there to provide efficiently produced raw materials for the home economy and serve as a market for their production, not competitors.

Players of DEI or British India at this point are expected to play the good colonial ruler ensuring orderly production, expansion of sphere of influence, and providing aid in case mother country gets into trouble militarily. At some point we might include ahistorical paths that include expansion of the colonial pact to fully include colonial populations as equal citizens, but for right now the mod models the historical reality, which is that colonial POPs had almost no say in the administration and development of their homelands for the vast majority of the period of the game.
 

Mohobbit

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:DThanks for the answer. I guess I will revisit this country if you decide in the future to add the ahistorical paths, it sounds like to boring of a game to just play the loyal colonist.:eek:o
 

Talquin

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you can also just add the cultures to your save file....cheap but it will do what you want.

or get a full citizenship party in power, or edit a party to have full citizenship.
 

JoeGiavani

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Very easy to mod it in yourself. Just find the culture line in your save game and add Javan and Malay to it.
Obviously this would be completely unhistorical but, you know.
 

rjf101

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Maybe there could be an event, that either the Netherlands or the Dutch E. Indies would get, that would add some Dutch POPs to some of the less crowded parts of Indonesia. It could be called "Dutch Immigration to the Colonies" and have two options: "Encourage Dutch immigration to the East Indies", and "There's no need for it". The most likely AI option would be the latter choice. I suppose it would make sense because the Netherlands is a crowded place so I'm kind of wondering why more Dutch didn't move to the East Indies in real life :wacko:. Maybe the same could apply for other colonies (I've always wanted to have a small amount of my culture in my colonies, to make them feel more like they're really "mine"). Also, it would never be more than a couple of POPs per state, because it shouldn't be enough to industrialise the colonies or anything.
 

Waffen9999

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I continue to strive to find an even close approximation of the Dutch colonial population in Java during the time frame since I have a hard time trying to believe it was as low as portrayed. Though obviously I could be wrong.
 

Khalep

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I can assure you it was indeed very, very low.

You see, up until the time of the Cultuurstelsel (sometime in the latter half of the 19th century if I recall correctly) we Dutchmen left virtually everything in the hands of the native nobility. As long as they didn't actively oppose us and agreed to trade their goods only with us they were pretty much free to do as they pleased within their own domains.
The reasoning was that any sizeable colonial administration would only cost us a lot of money, as we'd be forced to institute both a proper bureaucracy and maintain a significant military presence. It was simply cheaper to just let the natives deal with native matters to to say. All we ever wanted was a cheap monopoly on trade, mainly in spices at the time, produced in the area.

Only with the Cultuurstelsel did we start some sort of active rule over the locals as we demanded them to produce specific amounts of goods which sold for high prices in Europe (such as coffee) and sell them to us at a (very low) fixed price. That did demand some more administrators, but the vast majority of matters were still left to the largely autonomous local rulers, so even then the percentage of Dutchmen (or rather, Europeans) in the Dutch East Indies remained very low.

On the matter mentioned by rjf101, the Dutch population was actually rather low at the time, even if centered in the cities and therefore urbanized. There was actually very little population growth in my country from say 1600 to 1800, only after that did it grow from about 2.000.000 to the 16.300.000 there are today.

I hope that helps explain a few things?

EDIT (an extra thought): Translating this to game-terms, I would very much agree to setting only Dutch culture as accepted for the DEI as there simply never was any sort of direct control over the locals in those colonies.
 
Last edited:

Kagernaut

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I can assure you it was indeed very, very low.

You see, up until the time of the Cultuurstelsel (sometime in the latter half of the 19th century if I recall correctly) we Dutchmen left virtually everything in the hands of the native nobility. As long as they didn't actively oppose us and agreed to trade their goods only with us they were pretty much free to do as they pleased within their own domains.
The reasoning was that any sizeable colonial administration would only cost us a lot of money, as we'd be forced to institute both a proper bureaucracy and maintain a significant military presence. It was simply cheaper to just let the natives deal with native matters to to say. All we ever wanted was a cheap monopoly on trade, mainly in spices at the time, produced in the area.

Only with the Cultuurstelsel did we start some sort of active rule over the locals as we demanded them to produce specific amounts of goods which sold for high prices in Europe (such as coffee) and sell them to us at a (very low) fixed price. That did demand some more administrators, but the vast majority of matters were still left to the largely autonomous local rulers, so even then the percentage of Dutchmen (or rather, Europeans) in the Dutch East Indies remained very low.

On the matter mentioned by rjf101, the Dutch population was actually rather low at the time, even if centered in the cities and therefore urbanized. There was actually very little population growth in my country from say 1600 to 1800, only after that did it grow from about 2.000.000 to the 16.300.000 there are today.

I hope that helps explain a few things?

Thats actually a very, very interesting clarification.

Thanks:)
 

Underhand

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Seems like the tastiest target for the Dutch East Indies to acquire is ... Dutchland itself. Take it, and you have all the Dutchies in the world to do with as you wish. You could try to make them move to Java to assimilate the natives, or you could leave them where they are and industrialise Dutchland. I suspect this sort of action is not what was intended though ;)
 

jamhaw

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Seems like the tastiest target for the Dutch East Indies to acquire is ... Dutchland itself. Take it, and you have all the Dutchies in the world to do with as you wish. You could try to make them move to Java to assimilate the natives, or you could leave them where they are and industrialise Dutchland. I suspect this sort of action is not what was intended though ;)

But wouldn't "Dutchland" just annex you like Britain does British India?
 

LodovicoAriosto

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Only with the Cultuurstelsel did we start some sort of active rule over the locals as we demanded them to produce specific amounts of goods which sold for high prices in Europe (such as coffee) and sell them to us at a (very low) fixed price.

I have read that the Cultuurstelsel was enacted sometimes in the mid-19th century to get Holland from the edge of bankrupcy which threatened after the separation of Belgium.

The Dutch forced the Javanese to grow sugar or indigo instead of rice which later led to massive famines and epidemics on the island. They also issues floods of new coins to pay for imports and thus extracted a huge inflation tax from the Javanese.

I guess that the bonds between Netherlands and Indonesia are strong until present day since the only Dutch product I personally use here in CZE is "Javaanse Jongens Tembacco" - 40g pack of tobacco :D

JavaJongTembaco_medium.jpg
 
Last edited:

unmerged(31044)

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I guess that the bonds between Netherlands and Indonesia are strong until present day since the only Dutch product I personally use here in CZE is "Javaanse Jongens Tembacco" - 40g pack of tobacco :D

JavaJongTembaco_medium.jpg


They are not,the Dutch look back on nowadays Indonesia with romance while the Indonesians look back at 450 years of slavery and occupation they dont realy want anything to do with us,after the wars they even tossed out the mixed people...people who looked like indonesians but where considered Dutch; majority of wich now live in The Hague the city is also called the widdow of the indie's.
 

Khalep

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I have read that the Cultuurstelsel was enacted sometimes in the mid-19th century to get Holland from the edge of bankrupcy which threatened after the separation of Belgium.

The Dutch forced the Javanese to grow sugar or indigo instead of rice which later led to massive famines and epidemics on the island. They also issues floods of new coins to pay for imports and thus extracted a huge inflation tax from the Javanese.

I guess that the bonds between Netherlands and Indonesia are strong until present day since the only Dutch product I personally use here in CZE is "Javaanse Jongens Tembacco" - 40g pack of tobacco :D

JavaJongTembaco_medium.jpg

I just looked it up, it was designed and empowered in 1830, the very year that Belgium seceded.
It was indeed instituted to help the Dutch economy and public welfare, one of the reforms of our first properly-Dutch monarch, Willem I (a true paternal autocrat). The economy had been weak since the crises of the Napoleonic times (though it wasn't very strong before then either, it had been stagnant for most of the 18th century) and given the loss of Ceylon, South-Africa and now Belgium there was probably a clear need to somehow gain more income and revenues. It did succeed in that respect, though at a terrible price for the Indonesians.

If you look at the Cultuurstelsel on paper it wasn't actually too bad. Local farmers and rulers had to from then on use 20% of their land to grow goods desired for sale on the European market. In addition to it, local rulers got paid the so-called 'cultuurprocenten' for their domain's products and, as a stimulus, they even got paid more if they somehow managed to produce more than the expected amount.
Of course this alone led to massive exploitation of the farmers, in this case by their own rulers. Couple this with increasing corruption, arrogance and a rabid desire to line their own pockets amongst the Dutch administration the Cultuurstelses was horribly abused. Farmers were often forced to devote for example 25 or 30 percent of their most fertile lands to this production, sometimes probably even more.

Of course most of this went unreported in the 'colonial wilds', but great famine must have certainly been the result.
In the 1860's public awareness on the issue in the Netherlands did grow though, as Multatuli (Eduard Douwes-Dekker) wrote his literary masterpiece on the issue, and it was eventually abolished in the 1870's.

Given all this it is obvious that EL n00biachi is quite right, relations between the Netherlands and Indonesia are still low. Especially as we parted with war, as we desperately tried to stop the decolonization with force (it's actually quite ironic how we actually mobilized and decided to go to war so shortly after being ourselves liberated from the Germans).
The one attempt to maintain some form of political-economic contact was abolished by Indonesia just a few years after it's institution.
Some issues still remain. For example, the issue of when Indonesia became a separate state (we said 1949, they said 1945) was only solved in 2005. Also, as EL n00biachi already pointed out, there are still pro-Dutch 'Indonesians' living in the Netherlands, who still desire at least regional autonomy for their islands and are opposed to the central government on Java (and Sumatra).

We were not very nice colonial rulers at all.

This is of course not quite what the topic was about though, when it was first created. I'm afraid we're going off-topic.
 

LodovicoAriosto

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I am glad we didn't have any colonies. Czechoslovakia had enormous prestige in the Third world during the decolonization and translated it into profit too. Alas, most of it is gone because our post-89 leaders oriented the foreign policies purely to the EU and the US. You know, almost "lackey" approach :(

On the topic: It seems quite sensible that the Dutch is only national culture, thus making Indonesia unable to industrialize. VIP has a strict historical character and I like it as it is. Definitely better than the melting pot of generic blobs we know from the latest Pdox releases...;)
 

Salim

Captain
22 Badges
May 30, 2006
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I created some new political parties and added some national cultures. I found it greatly interesting and funny, just with those changes that I made.
But my changes weren't to make it easier, just to make it more playable.
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