Dutch collaborative government ('Vichy-Netherlands')

[Linx MP]

Talking about alternative histories. I remember someone made a event series that created a greater the Netherlands that combined the Netherlands and Vlaanderen for HoI2. That was pretty fun as well and meant the German invasion could be defeated quite easily.

Anyway I agree with most comments here about the likelihood of a Vichy style the Netherlands as de Geer envisioned it but mainland the Netherlands was in fact a puppet. It had civilian rule for most of the occupation and most Dutch civil servants remained at their pre-war posts. German authority was not absolute and most historians agree that it was only because of Dutch willingness to cooperate that Germany gained as much influence as they did in the Dutch governing apparatus. A willingness born out of a number of factors including Dutch participative governing style and a fear of letting things get even worse if there was an active resistance to German wishes rather than a kindred of spirit between Dutch civil servants and German occupiers.

De Geer's mistake was the same one most of the Dutch civil service as well as much of the NSB leadership made. The mistaken belief that the Germans could be reasoned and bargained with. In fact there was no room to manoeuvre. The Germans had to get it their way. However the Germans could be resisted for very long. The Danish example showed how much could be done if one simply said no. Although the positions cannot be compared one for one resistance even in an official capacity was the better road to travel. Not that I'm judging anyone here, it was a horribly difficult position to be in and judging the people in it from the outside is unfair and unproductive.

As for a build in possibility for an a-historical Dutch Vichy government, well I think we should leave that to some modders.

 

[Carroarmato-P40]

Rexist movement in Belgium? Belgium is a non-national state, it's creation was based on religion and political situations si NO in a Right winged world Belgium would not exist...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rexism

 

[Gen.Schuermann]

I don't think Germany was ever considering a puppet Dutch government. It would sort of be like Ukraine puppet or German protectorate of Israel.

Not necessarily. Hitler had next to no interest in the west. I guess i could see a West Frisia to Germany scenario, but i am unsure if the rest has necessarily be incorporated into the Reich. Maybe a status like Bohemia-Moravia.

 

[cdcdrr]

Dutch people have Germanic roots. The Frisian and Batavian tribes were Germanic. So where the Franks who overan the lowlands and France during the collapse of the Roman Empire. Flanders is the only questionable case, since they have a strong French influence from times when France was more Latin than Germanic. But in the 19th and 20th century Flemish people identified themselves as Dutch, therefore as Germanic people.

Since Hitler's intent was to unite all Germanic people in his Third Reich he would not have passed up the chance to annex Belgium and the Netherlands. If victorious, he would have ethnically cleansed Belgium and Luxemburg of French people. This was already happening during the war in Luxemburg.

 

[unmerged(37697)]

If Paradox doesn't want to add a whole bunch of alternate events I REALLY hope they'll do an expansion pack of purely ahistorical (but plausible) event paths. That's what HOI needs more than anything. For a game that's so open it just stinks how historically limited the choices are.

This is unlikely; various mods fitting this description aren't, however.

If/when P'dox do an expansion pack, it will likely be some sort of new version of HoI2's Doomsday, or perhaps... I hope... I beg... a WWI expansion.

 

[unmerged(123225)]

Not necessarily. Hitler had next to no interest in the west. I guess i could see a West Frisia to Germany scenario, but i am unsure if the rest has necessarily be incorporated into the Reich. Maybe a status like Bohemia-Moravia.

Not exactly accurate, but you get the idea:

 

[unmerged(131989)]

This would be a great inclusion!

 

[Marcus]

Am I the only one that releases as many puppets as possible in HOI2 (and planning to do so in HOI3), to get 'volunteer' divisions from my *cough cough* Axis Partners to fight in the Crusade against the Red Hordes in the East?

IIRC, you can squeeze about 50+ divisions out of Vichy France, Hungary, Rumania, Bulgaria, the Baltics, the Balkans, Slovakia and Finland. Ideal defense troops which free up my guys for offensive operations.... kinda reminds me of Stalingrad.

 

[unmerged(112615)]

? Germany wanted a piece of Italy? New to me.

 

[unmerged(131989)]

? Germany wanted a piece of Italy? New to me.

The part that used to belong to Austria until the end of WW1 when it was given to Italy. This area still contained large German populations during WW2.

 

[Kikaider]

? Germany wanted a piece of Italy? New to me.

Mediterranian port maybe? For primarily strategic purposes?

 

[GLENN]

Interesting, but I agree the Dutch East Indies would never go to Japan.
they would remain a puppet of Germany and then revolt.

 

[Kikaider]

Interesting, but I agree the Dutch East Indies would never go to Japan.
they would remain a puppet of Germany and then revolt.

+1 on Dutch East Indies resisting Japan

if anything the D.E.I. would become a protectrate of Brit (and possibly under the nominal theater of ANZAC defense) or USA

 

[Cardus]

The part that used to belong to Austria until the end of WW1 when it was given to Italy. This area still contained large German populations during WW2.

No. Just the Sudtirol contained a large proportion of Germans...

 

[Cardus]

Dutch people have Germanic roots. The Frisian and Batavian tribes were Germanic. So where the Franks who overan the lowlands and France during the collapse of the Roman Empire. Flanders is the only questionable case, since they have a strong French influence from times when France was more Latin than Germanic. But in the 19th and 20th century Flemish people identified themselves as Dutch, therefore as Germanic people.

Since Hitler's intent was to unite all Germanic people in his Third Reich he would not have passed up the chance to annex Belgium and the Netherlands. If victorious, he would have ethnically cleansed Belgium and Luxemburg of French people. This was already happening during the war in Luxemburg.

English have Germans root as well...

PS
Moreover the current royal family is from Germany if I'm not wrong...

 

[unmerged(131342)]

Moreover the current royal family is from Germany if I'm not wrong...

As with all royal families in EUrope they're from everywhere. Nothing as inbred as european royal families; they all trace heritage to each other in some way or the other. The queen of The Netherlands for example traces back to 92nd or so in line of the British throne. So if by some freak accident the 91 people in front of her die, we'd have some sort of weird Dutch-British commonwealth... :/

 

[unmerged(37697)]

Moreover the current royal family is from Germany if I'm not wrong...

Well, they haven't been German since George II, or arguably George III (though by the time of his death no one would ever have suggested he was German), although both Victoria and George V married Germans.

 

[Cardus]

As with all royal families in EUrope they're from everywhere. Nothing as inbred as european royal families; they all trace heritage to each other in some way or the other. The queen of The Netherlands for example traces back to 92nd or so in line of the British throne. So if by some freak accident the 91 people in front of her die, we'd have some sort of weird Dutch-British commonwealth... :/

So you confirm that the British royal family is from Germany and as a royal family in Europe may be from everywhere the British royal family, maybe, has some Albanian root as well.

 

[unmerged(131342)]

Haha, I wouldn't even be surprised!

 

[unmerged(123225)]

Well, getting back to the topic, I think Hitler made an exception to France and Britain to maintain their national sovereignity. Only thing I would change on the map I posted above is Switzerland. Hitler planned to partition it with Italy.