Dutch collaborative government ('Vichy-Netherlands')

[unmerged(112615)]

I was scouring Wikipedia and I came across this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_government_in_exile

It mentions that then Dutch PM De Geer was willing to collaborate with the Germans and set up a Vichy-like puppet government in the Netherlands. Queen Wilhelmina was against that and so she fired De Geer and put in a pro-Allied PM.

Now I don't know what kind of events are still in HOI3 but I suggest that if De Geer is still PM when the Netherlands are invaded in 1940 there'd be an option to set up a puppet regime in the Netherlands with De Geer as either head of state or head of government. Japan would get the Dutch East Indies just like they get Indochina. In this case instead of telling Wilhelmina of the plans like in RL, he just went and formed the puppet on him self. The rest of the government would consist of other known collaborators (NSB members, etc.).

Part of the army/airforce/navy would defect to 'Vichy-Netherlands'.

Wilhelmina would be like the Gaulle was for France and lead the Netherlands (of which only Suriname and the Antilles remain) together with Gerbrandy as PM.

 

[Kikaider]

OOO, I like that idea, would add more alt-hist flavor to the game, and wouldn't be that hard to mod in (just copy and mod the vichy france event/decision)

as an added depth, Dutch-vichy could also be given beligum as an administrative region (as a choice from the ger player/ai of course), with the logic that BENELUX once existed as a single country a little better than 100 yrs before

 

[Lauri]

Well, things could turn out to be almost to easy for Japan, 'till the USN comes anyways, but I wouldn't mind if there was a slight chance of it happening, but I wouldn't give in to it, if I were the Dutch

 

[unmerged(123225)]

I don't think Germany was ever considering a puppet Dutch government. It would sort of be like Ukraine puppet or German protectorate of Israel.

 

[Kikaider]

I don't think Germany was ever considering a puppet Dutch government. It would sort of be like Ukraine puppet or German protectorate of Israel.

No, but if I'M germany I might

 

[PIT_AMERO]

If they create it, then there wont be any german forces in the country.
And if that isn't an invitation to the allies to land there and to have an open passage to the heart of Germany.

 

[unmerged(112615)]

I don't think Germany was ever considering a puppet Dutch government. It would sort of be like Ukraine puppet or German protectorate of Israel.

The key words are: the oil of the Dutch East Indies. It was the third largest oil producer in the world. Might've avoided war with USA (for a while) as the lack of oil was the biggest reason for Japan to attack the USA/Allies. Japan would be much stronger if it got its hands on that oil/territory a year earlier.
Even if the Dutch forces there rebelled against the annexation by Japan, in 1940 Japan would've just sent part of it's army/navy/airforce to decimate the three divisions that I usually see in Batavia by 1941.

'Vichy-Netherlands' is way more interesting and important than other puppet states such as Slovakia or Croatia.

 

[unmerged(123225)]

The key words are: the oil of the Dutch East Indies. It was the third largest oil producer in the world. Might've avoided war with USA (for a while) as the lack of oil was the biggest reason for Japan to attack the USA/Allies. Japan would be much stronger if it got its hands on that oil/territory a year earlier.
Even if the Dutch forces there rebelled against the annexation by Japan, in 1940 Japan would've just sent part of it's army/navy/airforce to decimate the three divisions that I usually see in Batavia by 1941.

'Vichy-Netherlands' is way more interesting and important than other puppet states such as Slovakia or Croatia.

But there already is puppet option for peace. And wouldn't Dutch Indies be the first to defect to the Allies? Even if they don't defect I'm sure the British would have taken control of it pretty quickly.

 

[unmerged(112615)]

If they create it, then there wont be any german forces in the country.
And if that isn't an invitation to the allies to land there and to have an open passage to the heart of Germany.

No the discussion between Wilhelmina and De Geer was in London. The government was already in exile. The plan of De Geer was too RETURN to the Netherlands and set up a puppet regime. So there'd be a troops there. It would happen after Vichy as that's where De Geer got the idea from.

 

[Kikaider]

If they create it, then there wont be any german forces in the country.
And if that isn't an invitation to the allies to land there and to have an open passage to the heart of Germany.

There would be if it would be a puppet with nominal autocracy (like slovakia), as opposed to a neutral psuedo-state like V.France. I would assume it would more likely end up as puppet than anything else

 

[unmerged(131221)]

When we talk about it why dont we also add Danemark - it was quite independent (with own government) and Norway (under Quisling).
Some will argue that Quisling wasnt accepted by majority of Norwegians but was Vichy accepted by all French people?
I think that all countries that had 'semi-independent' government or administration should be in.

 

[warchlak]

Vichy was not accepted by all French people but actually the vichy governement was a reality. It will add fun in the game if what happened in France could happened to every european country... because in this them nothing was white or black, so potentially some people were thinking collabore could be a good thing to have peace, and other dissaprove and fight again the occupation...

 

[cdcdrr]

Rather unlikely scenario for a few reasons:

1. De Geer would be instantly a traitor by law. Wilhelmina had wartime rule covered well enough by making London the new Dutch capitol and as sovereign ruler still holds more legitamacy than a turncoat similar to Petain and his lackeys. De Facto, de Geer could be President if the Nazi turned the country into a republic, but there were enough legal caveats to prevent it from being recognised.

2. The country still held on to Indonesia and after Japan took that, Suriname and the Antilles. Loyalty of the governors in these colonies was too strong for them to accept de Geer if he was a traitor. Dutch Indonesia simply continued on without the homeland and bought American weapons for the inevitable Japanese attack. It had become autonomous unexpectedly and unwillingly, but didn't even consider following the capitulation of the homeland after Hitler already controlled it.

3. There were more suitable choices than De Geer. Although de Geer was a more legal choice, ultimately he was not a fascist so that was one strike against him. Anton Mussert, leader of the Dutch National Socialist Movement (NSB) sacredly believed Hitler was a messiah who would make the Netherlands a strong ally of Germany and that he was in the best position to lead it, having already subscribed to fascism before the country would (which it didn't). Mussert ended up as being an enormous tool for the occupation force. Lesser party members of the NSB who were more radical in their anti-semitism, racism and Greater Germany idealism, such as Henk Feldmijer or Meinoud Rost van Tonningen also hoped to be the leader of the Netherlands and were considered by the SS above Mussert himself, but not persued for one obvious reason.
There is also an urban legend that Prince Bernhard, a native German married to the crown princess, had send Hitler a letter offering to be Stadholder of the Netherlands and allying with Germany. Bernhard, himself known for being a bit too eager to fight the nazis, was so confident that was a myth that he issued a million guilder reward for the supposed letter.

4. The real reason why a puppet regime even under a fascist was never considered was Hitler's Greater Germany vision. He wanted all Germanic people inside German borders, and that would include the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, Norway, Denmark and eventually, Switzerland and Sweden to. Arthur Seyss Inquart who had already handed Hitler Austria on a golden platter was made the leader of the occupation and instructed to Nazify the Netherlands. Although Seyss Inquart initially promised Dutch law and independence would be respected, like all Nazi promises it was a blatant lie, as the SS and Gestapo began putting tabs on Jews and unionists before too long. The NSB to was used to bolster radical National Socialists in its ranks over the more tolerant Fascist members like Mussert (who had Jewish and Freemasons as friends and party members).

So De Geer is an unlikely choice for a Fascist puppet, and the colonies would not have folded in this case like they did with the (legal) French government. As Hitler would not puppet what he considered German territory. A militarist Germany might make De Geer prime minister as a Paternal Autocrat in case the Hitler Assassination happens. Or Wilhelmina would be reinstated under Wilhelm II(I) in case of a monarchist Germany (which Wilhelmina might have accepted, because of a dislike for politicians). But I think even if a German player so chooses to release a dutch puppet regime, it would be Musser's NSB.

 

[unmerged(56754)]

ABout the Dutch East Indies to Japan, I would bet money the Dutch government in exile would rather fight the Japs for them, instead of retreating to the Carribean, that or Britain moving their own troops in to prevent Japans occupation.

Whilist Indo-China was resourcefully weak, and not really worth risking war, I cannot see how either the Netherlands government, Britain (And Australia) or even the US just allowing this.

The US embargoed Japan due to Indo-China, no chance are they going to let Japan have the most resourceful regions in Asia

 

[unmerged(134131)]

Some will argue that Quisling wasnt accepted by majority of Norwegians but was Vichy accepted by all French people?

Vichy government was accepted by a majority of french in 1940. French population did'nt want war, WW1 memory...
in 1940 80% was Petainiste (not for Petain, but for the end of the war), in 44 80% was Gaulliste...

 

[unmerged(112615)]

Rather unlikely scenario for a few reasons:

1. De Geer would be instantly a traitor by law. Wilhelmina had wartime rule covered well enough by making London the new Dutch capitol and as sovereign ruler still holds more legitamacy than a turncoat similar to Petain and his lackeys. De Facto, de Geer could be President if the Nazi turned the country into a republic, but there were enough legal caveats to prevent it from being recognised.

2. The country still held on to Indonesia and after Japan took that, Suriname and the Antilles. Loyalty of the governors in these colonies was too strong for them to accept de Geer if he was a traitor. Dutch Indonesia simply continued on without the homeland and bought American weapons for the inevitable Japanese attack. It had become autonomous unexpectedly and unwillingly, but didn't even consider following the capitulation of the homeland after Hitler already controlled it.

3. There were more suitable choices than De Geer. Although de Geer was a more legal choice, ultimately he was not a fascist so that was one strike against him. Anton Mussert, leader of the Dutch National Socialist Movement (NSB) sacredly believed Hitler was a messiah who would make the Netherlands a strong ally of Germany and that he was in the best position to lead it, having already subscribed to fascism before the country would (which it didn't). Mussert ended up as being an enormous tool for the occupation force. Lesser party members of the NSB who were more radical in their anti-semitism, racism and Greater Germany idealism, such as Henk Feldmijer or Meinoud Rost van Tonningen also hoped to be the leader of the Netherlands and were considered by the SS above Mussert himself, but not persued for one obvious reason.
There is also an urban legend that Prince Bernhard, a native German married to the crown princess, had send Hitler a letter offering to be Stadholder of the Netherlands and allying with Germany. Bernhard, himself known for being a bit too eager to fight the nazis, was so confident that was a myth that he issued a million guilder reward for the supposed letter.

4. The real reason why a puppet regime even under a fascist was never considered was Hitler's Greater Germany vision. He wanted all Germanic people inside German borders, and that would include the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, Norway, Denmark and eventually, Switzerland and Sweden to. Arthur Seyss Inquart who had already handed Hitler Austria on a golden platter was made the leader of the occupation and instructed to Nazify the Netherlands. Although Seyss Inquart initially promised Dutch law and independence would be respected, like all Nazi promises it was a blatant lie, as the SS and Gestapo began putting tabs on Jews and unionists before too long. The NSB to was used to bolster radical National Socialists in its ranks over the more tolerant Fascist members like Mussert (who had Jewish and Freemasons as friends and party members).

So De Geer is an unlikely choice for a Fascist puppet, and the colonies would not have folded in this case like they did with the (legal) French government. As Hitler would not puppet what he considered German territory. A militarist Germany might make De Geer prime minister as a Paternal Autocrat in case the Hitler Assassination happens. Or Wilhelmina would be reinstated under Wilhelm II(I) in case of a monarchist Germany (which Wilhelmina might have accepted, because of a dislike for politicians). But I think even if a German player so chooses to release a dutch puppet regime, it would be Musser's NSB.

All valid points. I was basing my thinking process on just the article. Should've factored in all these points mentioned.

At least I got more people to know about this obscure historical fact.

 

[Carroarmato-P40]

I don't think Germany was ever considering a puppet Dutch government. It would sort of be like Ukraine puppet or German protectorate of Israel.

I think if Germany retained Arnhem and Western Friesland, they'd probably be glad to oversee a Dutch puppet government.. This also brings to question, what about the Rexist movement in Belgium, that was also pro-axis???

 

[ROMANU]

Rexist movement in Belgium? Belgium is a non-national state, it's creation was based on religion and political situations si NO in a Right winged world Belgium would not exist...

in any case the dream of Greater Germany must have a very low chance of succes, and only if hitler and the SS are strong after Ger wins the war, if the army takes comand, probably Germany would stck to the german speaking regios plus some colonisation land and strategic positions

 

[unmerged(96668)]

Japan would get the Dutch East Indies just like they get Indochina.

Based on what I've read, this would not happen. The Dutch East Indies were run semi-autonomously and, with pressure from the US and UK, rebuffed any Japanese attempts to acquire any business rights in the territory (mining and oil extraction rights, basically).

I suppose a Dutch collaborationist government might consider it, but then, that itself is unlikely.

 

[Lazy_Boy]

That's definitely the kind of thing that should be an alternate history possibility. Should be so many more dynamic choices for various nations and situations.

If Paradox doesn't want to add a whole bunch of alternate events I REALLY hope they'll do an expansion pack of purely ahistorical (but plausible) event paths. That's what HOI needs more than anything. For a game that's so open it just stinks how historically limited the choices are.