Dutch coat of arms

[Aemilius XXIII]

Also in the FtG game is the coat of arms of the Dutch republic incorrect presented. Its not a red lion that is placed on an yellow shield but a yellow lion placed on a red shield. The correct colours are indeed reverse of the coat of arms of the province Holland.

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Republic

Is it possible to create a mod to correct this?

 

[Birger]

Also in the FtG game is the coat of arms of the Dutch republic incorrect presented. Its not a red lion that is placed on an yellow shield but a yellow lion placed on a red shield. The correct colours are indeed reverse of the coat of arms of the province Holland.

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Republic

Is it possible to create a mod to correct this?

It is based on the information provided by Rolf Hartemink who runs the site, www.ngw.nl

"During the Spanish occupation, the provinces of the Netherlands (which then included present Belgium) formed a parliament, the Staten-Generaal. A total of 17 provinces was represented. As many of the provinces had a lion in their arms, the symbol of the Staten-Generaal became a lion. A sword was added as a symbol of power and 17 arrows as a symbol of unity.

In 1579 the northern provinces united in the Union of Utrecht and formed their own Republic of the Seven United Netherlands. At the same time a similar union was formed in the South, basically dividing the Netherlands and Belgium. The Republic, which became officially independent in 1648, but was practically independent since 1579, took the arms of the 17 provinces, but changed the number of arrows to 7. As colours, the colours of Holland, the most important of the newly united provinces, were taken. The arms of Holland are or, a lion rampant gules, tongue and nails azure. These arms, sometimes with modifications, were used until the French occupation in 1795."

So according to his research it wouldn't be until after 1795 that coat of arms were used. But we'll of course double check that.

 

[Bizon]

Clicking further into "Coat of Arms" subject there is an informative photo that hints at differences in colours and what do they mean:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gouda_Arms_of_Dutch_republic_County_Holland_Kingdom_The_Netherlands.JPG (see "description" field in the table below the image)

Of course some second, reliable source, would be better

 

[Toio]

Clicking further into "Coat of Arms" subject there is an informative photo that hints at differences in colours and what do they mean:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gouda_Arms_of_Dutch_republic_County_Holland_Kingdom_The_Netherlands.JPG (see "description" field in the table below the image)

Of course some second, reliable source, would be better

-The red banner represents the Republic of Holland
-The Yellow represent the county of Holland ( it belongs to counts of the region of Holland)
- The blue one represents the Kingdom of netherlands

so, IIRC... from commencement to 1648 it should be the yrllow
from 1648 ( first recognition by others of a state named Holland ) it becomes red
from 1813 it becomes blue as it became a kingdom

 

[Bizon]

so, IIRC... from commencement to 1648 it should be the yrllow
from 1648 ( first recognition by others of a state named Holland ) it becomes red
from 1813 it becomes blue as it became a kingdom

My understanding is that red lion on yellow background refers to Holland, one of the provinces united later into Netherlands, which could be available as a single-province revolter state (is it?). Dutch Republic (=United Provinces) should already start in 1580s (the very beginning) with yellow lion on red background and I think year 1648 (final recognition) didn't have an effect on their national symbols. I'd say the difference lies in the size of the country (one province vs. united seven provinces) rather than being simply timeline-related.

EDIT: OK, at last sight, I read something that may point to this inversion (and make my information above invalid):

After the completion of its forming in 1584 the Republic of the Seven United Provinces used as its arms: Or a crowned lion Gules armed and langued Azure, holding in his dexter paw a sword and in the sinister paw seven arrows tight together Azure. The colours of this version where derived from the most important of the seven provinces, the county of Holland (its arms are still in use since being adopted by the counts of Holland in ca 1198) After ca 1668 the colours where reversed and the arms became Gules a crowned lion Or armed and langued Azure holding in his dexter paw a sword Argent hilted Or and in the sinister paw seven arrows Argent pointed and tight together Or.

I find it really hard to decipher those heraldic colours but it seems to refer just to that case. Again, Wikipedia.

 

[Birger]

Gules - Red
Or - Yellow (Gold)
Azure - Blue
Argent - White (Silver)

 

[Toio]

My understanding is that red lion on yellow background refers to Holland, one of the provinces united later into Netherlands, which could be available as a single-province revolter state (is it?). Dutch Republic (=United Provinces) should already start in 1580s (the very beginning) with yellow lion on red background and I think year 1648 (final recognition) didn't have an effect on their national symbols. I'd say the difference lies in the size of the country (one province vs. united seven provinces) rather than being simply timeline-related.

EDIT: OK, at last sight, I read something that may point to this inversion (and make my information above invalid):

After the completion of its forming in 1584 the Republic of the Seven United Provinces used as its arms: Or a crowned lion Gules armed and langued Azure, holding in his dexter paw a sword and in the sinister paw seven arrows tight together Azure. The colours of this version where derived from the most important of the seven provinces, the county of Holland (its arms are still in use since being adopted by the counts of Holland in ca 1198) After ca 1668 the colours where reversed and the arms became Gules a crowned lion Or armed and langued Azure holding in his dexter paw a sword Argent hilted Or and in the sinister paw seven arrows Argent pointed and tight together Or.

I find it really hard to decipher those heraldic colours but it seems to refer just to that case. Again, Wikipedia.

as i said
commencement to 1648 was yellow flag, with red lion

1648 to 1813 it became red flag with gold lion

1813 to present it became blue flag with gold lion

you say that in 1668 a reversal of colours red flag with gold lion

only difference we have is 1648 ( peace of westphalia) or 1668

 

[Aemilius XXIII]

My understanding is that red lion on yellow background refers to Holland, one of the provinces united later into Netherlands, which could be available as a single-province revolter state (is it?).

Uhm... no not really. The first hostilities in the Dutch Revolt, in the Netherlands common known as the "Eighty Years War" started already in 1566 (not in 1568) in south-west Flanders. It began with the so named "Hagenpreken" (Calvinistic worships in the open air) followed by the so named "Beeldenstorm" (iconoclastic fury). In reaction the Spanish king send his fearsome army commander the Duke of Avila (Alva or Alba) with an army of 10,000 men to the Southern Netherlands to restore the order.

At first, William of Orange (nicknamed the Silent) didn't support the revolt against his overlord Philip II, he was untill 1568 loyal to the Spanish King. William of Orange was count of Antwerp when the Battle of Oosterweel (located where is now the Antwerp harbour district) took place on March 3, 1567, he prohibited the Protestants of Antwerp to support the rebel-army led by Jan de Marnix of Aldegonde. This battle is officially recognized as the begin of the Dutch Revolt instead of the battle of Heiligerlee in 1568 that took place in the far north (Groningen) The Battle of Heiligerlee (May 23, 1568) was the third battle against the Spanish army, the first one that ended as a small victory for the rebels. Just a month before Heiligerlee a rebel-army under supreme command of William of Orange was defeated by the Spanish in the Battle of Dalheim (a city district of the German city Mönchengladbach) after an unsuccessfull attempt to invade Upper Gelre.

EDIT: OK, at last sight, I read something that may point to this inversion (and make my information above invalid):

After the completion of its forming in 1584 the Republic of the Seven United Provinces used as its arms: Or a crowned lion Gules armed and langued Azure, holding in his dexter paw a sword and in the sinister paw seven arrows tight together Azure. The colours of this version where derived from the most important of the seven provinces, the county of Holland (its arms are still in use since being adopted by the counts of Holland in ca 1198) After ca 1668 the colours where reversed and the arms became Gules a crowned lion Or armed and langued Azure holding in his dexter paw a sword Argent hilted Or and in the sinister paw seven arrows Argent pointed and tight together Or.

I find it really hard to decipher those heraldic colours but it seems to refer just to that case. Again, Wikipedia.

I have studied this case too, you are right. I didn't know before but as the Dutch flag changed from orange-white-blue into red-white-blue also the coat of arms changed. This fact is studied with help of paintings of the De Ruyters Flagship "De Zeven Provinciën". See also pictures placed in the in Dutch written site http://www.hubert-herald.nl/Zevenprovincien.htm

The colours of the coat of arms were reversed during a remarkable period in the interior history of the Dutch republic, the so named First Stadtholderless Period". The precise date is not known, but many sources report this was done (almost) at the same time as the end of the Second Anglo-Dutch War or one year later in 1668.

My conclusion is, the coat of arms of the Dutch Republic was a red lion on a yellow field during the first century of the republic, then it was changed into reverse colours until the Netherlands lost its sovereignty during the years of the Napoleon era. (1795-1813) After that the Kingdom of the Netherlands was created and the coat of arms was changed again into the current one.