[Dumb Question no. 2] Do the effects of great works stack?

[Palbulchul]

Say, I build multiple Royal Palaces. Lots of them.

Each Royal Palace grants 750 retinue cap + 20% Retinue cap at lvl 4, right?

Then the question:

For the hypothetical purposes, I built 20 Royal Palaces.

1. Do the bonuses stack?
2. If they do, how do they stack? i.e. the flat cap increase has to be additive. (In our case, that would be 15k extra) However, how does the percentage increase work here? Are they additive as well? Or are they multiplicative?
3. How do these bonuses work with Military Organization tech? (You know, the one that gives you 1200% retinue cap increase?)

Thanks a lot in advance.

 

[jonjowett]

Hypothetically speaking, the bonuses should stack additively. (IE: 20 palaces gives 15k extra base and +400% to the multiplier.)

The relevant wiki entry is not entirely clear about how all of these will interact with each other. However, in general, I suggest you temper your expectations - the actual situation is probably quite similar to the most conservative possibility you can think of.

 

[Palbulchul]

Hypothetically speaking, the bonuses should stack additively. (IE: 20 palaces gives 15k extra base and +400% to the multiplier.)

The relevant wiki entry is not entirely clear about how all of these will interact with each other. However, in general, I suggest you temper your expectations - the actual situation is probably quite similar to the most conservative possibility you can think of.

Yes. The wiki is not entirely clear about it - which is why I had to ask.

I do see this item "Building Bonus" in the retinue cap formula, so my "assumption" is that, the retinue cap percentage modifier should work there. Even at that, with conservative 400% increase, things look pretty devastating:

Say, I have a modest 20-county kingdom, where all the counties have Royal palaces. All the counties have a modest 3 to 4 holdings. That will put my holding count at around 70. I am a king, so my base modifier is 4 -> That puts the first part of the retinue at 280.

Now, with 20 Royal Palaces at level 4, I have 15k with additional 400% bonus, which caps my retinue at 75k. (1 + 4 = 5)
Then, at Mil Org Tech 8, I get 1200% bonus, which puts my retinue at whopping 975k. This number doesn't reflect the initial 280 count or the Training Upgrade retinue cap either, so probably we're talking a healthy 1M retinue. And this is a conservative cap limit. Am I right so far here? Just curious.

 

[jonjowett]

Actually, I think the most likely possibility (which is also the most conservative) is that your hypothetical +400% from palaces stacks with the +1200% from mil org, for a total of +1600%. This would still be nice, but hardly devastating. (Reworking your example: (280 + (20 * 750)) * (1 + 1200% + (20 * 20%)) = 260k.)

In general, Paradox does not allow multiplicative buffs to stack with each other, which is why the germanic bonus is called out as a notable exception on the wiki.

Also, note that actually building 20 royal palaces (without cheats) would be stupid expensive - great work cost increases massively for duplicates (+120% for each additional royal palace). This escalating cost is probably a good enough balance for the benefit.

EDIT: Just booted up a game to check and my guess above is correct: (EDIT2: Actually, it's not quite correct, see below.)

Spoiler

The "Winter Palace" is a stage 4 royal palace.

 

[Palbulchul]

Actually, I think the most likely possibility (which is also the most conservative) is that your hypothetical +400% from palaces stacks with the +1200% from mil org, for a total of +1600%. This would still be nice, but hardly devastating. (Reworking your example: (280 + (20 * 750)) * (1 + 1200% + (20 * 20%)) = 260k.)

In general, Paradox does not allow multiplicative buffs to stack with each other, which is why the germanic bonus is called out as a notable exception on the wiki.

Also, note that actually building 20 royal palaces (without cheats) would be stupid expensive - great work cost increases massively for duplicates (+120% for each additional royal palace). This escalating cost is probably a good enough balance for the benefit.

EDIT: Just booted up a game to check and my guess above is correct:

Spoiler

The "Winter Palace" is a stage 4 royal palace.

View attachment 771809

Thanks for the example and explanation. So you have 1220% tagged at the end, is that correct?

 

[jonjowett]

Thanks for the example and explanation. So you have 1220% tagged at the end, is that correct?

Huh, you know what, it looks like it is applied separately.

Spoiler

Maybe you can keep your dreams of stacking that % modifier to the exponential heavens...

EDIT: Actually, maybe what's going on here is the +20% from the royal palace is being added to the "germanic" multiplicative modifier (as described on the wiki). In that case, having N stage 4 royal palaces will grant a blanket modifier of (1+N*0.2) to your retinue cap. (If you were germanic then it would be 1+0.5+N*0.2,)

 

[Palbulchul]

Huh, you know what, it looks like it is applied separately.

View attachment 771812

Maybe you can keep your dreams of stacking that % modifier to the exponential heavens...

EDIT: Actually, maybe what's going on here is the +20% from the royal palace is being added to the "germanic" multiplicative modifier (as described on the wiki). In that case, having N stage 4 royal palaces will grant a blanket modifier of (1+N*0.2) to your retinue cap. (If you were germanic then it would be 1+0.5+N*0.2,)

I wasn't talking about anything exponential, but this is indeed a huge discovery.

From your last post, I assumed the 20% bonus would get added to the 1200% Mil Org bonus - just, the math didn't work out. With the 20% tagged at 1200% bonus, I came away with 150282, not 177606. So I decided to put up the post. Looks like things are even better than I thought.

This means the Royal Palace bonus is applied to all the retinue cap from holdings and buildings entirely, right?

 

[jonjowett]

This means the Royal Palace bonus is applied to all the retinue cap from holdings and buildings entirely, right?

Yes, that's how it's working in my game. Which is a bit unexpected. Which is why I speculated that the Royal Palace bonus is being added to the UnreformedGermanicBonus in the formula on the wiki:

Retinue cap = (Rank * RealmHoldings + BuildingBonus) * (1 + 1.5 * MilitaryOrganizationTech) * (1 + UnreformedGermanicBonus)

---

EDIT: Confirmed, by converting to unreformed Germanic and checking the calc. The formula including Royal Palace is:

Retinue cap = (Rank * RealmHoldings + BuildingBonus) * (1 + 1.5 * MilitaryOrganizationTech) * (1 + UnreformedGermanicBonus + RoyalPalaceBonus)

Spoiler

---

EDIT2: Updated the wiki, linking to this post.

 

[Andrew0Red]

Pardon me for butting in, but if large retinues are your thing, you'll want to look into Tribals, NorthKorea style.

Due to poor planning on my part, I currently only have a retinue of 150k HI + 3k A as well as 15k LC + 30k LI. :/

 

[Palbulchul]

Dumb Question 2.1

@jonjowett //

In the Royal Palace, you get these attachments in form of "features" - one of which is the Watchtower Network. ( Levy + 10%)

Do you have any idea whether the 'Watchtower network' bonus is global? The tooltip in ck2 wiki doesn't mention whether it is global or local, so i wouldn't know.

 

[Whizzer]

It applies to all holdings in the province.

 

[Palbulchul]

It applies to all holdings in the province.

The bonus is limited to the county, not beyond. Is that correct?

 

[Whizzer]

Correct. Players often think provinces and counties are interchangeable terms, and the game doesn't help to distinguish the two, but for modders, they are two very different things, hence my previous answer.

 

[Palbulchul]

Dumb Question 2.2.

Now, now, now...

Great Library has added features.

6 features that add 10% Tech spread respectively (Culture/Mil/Econ) and Scribe room (25% tech)

1. Are they additive? (So - having 7 of these, does that equate to 45% tech spread bonus?)
2. Are they additive? (So - having 10 of these grand library. Does that equate to 450% tech spread bonus?)
3. How does this work with University tech spread bonus? (Are THEY additive as well?)

Heck, how does this tech spread thing work to begin with? So many unclear features. It feels like I'm walking in the dark.

 

[jonjowett]

Dumb Question 2.2.

Now, now, now...

Great Library has added features.

6 features that add 10% Tech spread respectively (Culture/Mil/Econ) and Scribe room (25% tech)

1. Are they additive? (So - having 7 of these, does that equate to 45% tech spread bonus?)
2. Are they additive? (So - having 10 of these grand library. Does that equate to 450% tech spread bonus?)
3. How does this work with University tech spread bonus? (Are THEY additive as well?)

Heck, how does this tech spread thing work to begin with? So many unclear features. It feels like I'm walking in the dark.

Tech spread from Great Works is like tech spread from universities: it only applies to the county containing the university/greatwork.

Basically, tech spread from great works is almost completely useless. It's not really worth the effort to try to understand it in any great detail.

 

[Palbulchul]

Tech spread from Great Works is like tech spread from universities: it only applies to the county containing the university/greatwork.

Basically, tech spread from great works is almost completely useless. It's not really worth the effort to try to understand it in any great detail.

So - say, I hold Prague. I build Castle in the capital barony, one bishopric in one of the holdings. I fill them up with cities (x5). If I have max level universities in all 5, how does the tech spread work in that case? Are they worthless too? (I am getting a very strong feeling that maybe - just maybe - this tech thing is not worth my attention.)

 

[jonjowett]

So - say, I hold Prague. I build Castle in the capital barony, one bishopric in one of the holdings. I fill them up with cities (x5). If I have max level universities in all 5, how does the tech spread work in that case? Are they worthless too? (I am getting a very strong feeling that maybe - just maybe - this tech thing is not worth my attention.)

If you have excess gold, buying more universities etc is a good way to buff your demesne in the long term. (Because you want to be able to build all the fancy buildings in all your castles, but you can only build those buildings if the relevant tech is present in that particular county, so you want tech spread, and city universities do that.)

The problem with great libraries vs universities is that they are much more expensive and have much less impact. Max university in one town? +90%. Max great library? +40%. And that great library is at least 10x more expensive than a level 3 university. And, as you rightly pointed out, you can have 5 max level universities in a county, for a total tech spread modifier of +450%. Getting that modifier to +490% with a great library is certainly feasible, but it's not really a good use of cash IMO. (I'd much rather pump disease resistance in every county that's adjacent to my demesne. And then every county that's adjacent to those. And save up for those random super-expensive prosperity buffs. Etc etc.)

I usually get one great library, mostly for role-play reasons. ("Inspires learning" for better holy men can also be obtained from the great university; and I've literally never seen the random event that gives you a unique book.) I don't think there's any reason to get more than that, except if you have some really bizarre idea of role-play...

 

[Andrew0Red]

While we're on the subject: Does a university increase tech spread to the province or from the province? In either case, where-to/-from?

 

[jonjowett]

While we're on the subject: Does a university increase tech spread to the province or from the province? In either case, where-to/-from?

I believe that "tech spread" modifiers relate to the rate at which a province's technology improves due to tech transfer from neighbouring/demesne/spymaster provinces to the province. ("From" other provinces "to" the province with the university; a single tier 3 +90% university will make the province receive tech nearly twice as fast as if there was no university at all.)

If you ever move your capital and hover over the tech tooltip, you will see that there are 3 sources of tech spread: demesne (ie. other provinces that are owned directly by your character and that have more tech than your current capital, eg. your former capital); neighbours (ie. provinces neighbouring your capital that have higher tech); and spymaster studying tech (ie. special delivery tech transfer from Constantinople to your capital). I believe that tech spread occurs in the same way between all provinces, although it's near-impossible to verify this in-game. I also believe that "tech spread" modifiers affect the rate at which a province "catches up" to neighbouring/demesne provinces - there is some "natural" base rate of tech spread, but this can be improved if you invest in universities etc. This all seems to be borne out by my gameplay experience (eg. tech maps being bright white around my widely-dispersed demesne, light blue if adjacent, and dark blue everywhere else), but I've never examined it in great detail.

EDIT: Exhibit A - Can you spot my demesne?

 

[Palbulchul]

If you have excess gold, buying more universities etc is a good way to buff your demesne in the long term. (Because you want to be able to build all the fancy buildings in all your castles, but you can only build those buildings if the relevant tech is present in that particular county, so you want tech spread, and city universities do that.)

The problem with great libraries vs universities is that they are much more expensive and have much less impact. Max university in one town? +90%. Max great library? +40%. And that great library is at least 10x more expensive than a level 3 university. And, as you rightly pointed out, you can have 5 max level universities in a county, for a total tech spread modifier of +450%. Getting that modifier to +490% with a great library is certainly feasible, but it's not really a good use of cash IMO. (I'd much rather pump disease resistance in every county that's adjacent to my demesne. And then every county that's adjacent to those. And save up for those random super-expensive prosperity buffs. Etc etc.)

I usually get one great library, mostly for role-play reasons. ("Inspires learning" for better holy men can also be obtained from the great university; and I've literally never seen the random event that gives you a unique book.) I don't think there's any reason to get more than that, except if you have some really bizarre idea of role-play...

Okay. That explains quite a bit.

That said - this then branches off to other areas in the strategy...

Say, Baghdad has 7 holding slots, with 4 occupied initially. I was under the impression that somehow holding castles was a better idea for muslim rulers, but this throws monkey wrench at that very idea. Do you build cities as a muslim ruler? At all?