Ducal Prussia

[zdlugasz]

The proposal in page 3 is for human "only". Don't forget a player can't be inherited and a player can do much better than AI in conquests. In this case, the goal for a player is to avoid inheritance before event fires and keep going on plausible track to the Kingdom of Prussia... or not.

For sure conquest are not a problem for human. I suppose that we could do similar trick as with Aragon and Castille.

Prussia accepts Hohenzollerns, later inherit Brandenburg and changes back into Brandenburg with capital in Berlin, IMO no problemo and no need to inven silly and unplausible event chains. In 1618 Prussia gains Hohenzollern as monarch and he just decides that his Prussian part is more important.

What the heck, if he "owns" both Brandenburg and Prussia he might to decide to break with Emperor completely becoming for now still Ducal Prussia and later changing into Kingdom of Prussia. Theoretically he is Polish vassal, so would gain Polish support and would not be alone in fight against Emperor. Later human/AI breaks vassalge with Poland when it is convinient (we could script it, e.g. in event creating Kingdom of Prussia (we would probably need to copy some Brandenburg events for such Prussia anyway) or leave it to human/engine)

And since it will be non-ai specific event chain human can take care for himself

Don't forget PRU tag is used for Ducal Prussia and Kingdom of Prussia and Ducal Prussia won't be inherited if involved countries are no more... A player avoiding inheritance will receive good monarchs of the Kingdom without becoming the kingdom.... Not wanted.

That's why alternative was proposed for a player to form the Kingdom of Prussia in some circumstancies. For AI, there is no real problem with this alternative, country will be inherited at 99,99% chance.

If Brandenburg is no more and Ducal Prussia gets Hohenzollern dynasty they may make claims to Brandenburg, and human will reconquer it. (IIRC Castille-Aragon-Spain event also have version when one country is missing, the gein cores and culture and is fine)


The problem IMO is what to do for AI. Because if AI led Spain can reconquer Aragon, I do not see AI of Ducal Prussia reconquering Berlin. And it leaves small ducal Prussia with leaders, events and monarchs of Kingdom of Prussia. So we need new TAG, but it was already proposed to reuse TAG of teutonic order. IMO the most probable/historically plausible solution is incorporation of Prussia into Poland, or we can play with alternative monarchs basing on other sons in law of Albrecht:
1) inherited by Courland and no problem
2) change tag to Teutonic Order and make new dynasty based on descendatns of Margrave of Brandenburg-Bayreuth

And lack of Poland is no problem. Human Prussia can get event giving him "inheritance" of Brandenburg anyway (and he does need to ask Poland for permission). And i options B we can still change country to Teutonic Order with Bayeruth dynasty.


Summary:
- for human no problem: Prussia inherits Brandenburg or get claims if Brandenburg is missing (in B and C options other alternatives like becoming Courland or changing into LAT)
- if Poland has something against Hohenzollerns in Prussia (option B), Poland will get cores etc and maybe Prussia starts war
- for AI Prussia: Poland should decide fate of Prussia
- if Brandenburg does not exist or refused treaty in 1618 Ducal Prussia is inherited by A) Poland, B) Courland C) changes into Teutonic Order with new dynasty

 

[Bordic]

Don't forget PRU tag is used for Ducal Prussia and Kingdom of Prussia and Ducal Prussia won't be inherited if involved countries are no more... A player avoiding inheritance will receive good monarchs and events of the Kingdom without becoming the kingdom.... Not wanted.

I don't know it it was already suggested or at most possible...
why not to use GER tag for the Kingdom of Prussia? I think that if a human becomes GER the alternative of a Kingdom of Prussia is unplausible, isn't it?

 

[zdlugasz]

I don't know it it was already suggested or at most possible...
why not to use GER tag for the Kingdom of Prussia? I think that if a human becomes GER the alternative of a Kingdom of Prussia is unplausible, isn't it?

I am not following Germany discussion but
- I guess taht formation of GER is impossible for AI, so we could reuse it, but there are some problems


1) Kingdom of Prussia was heavily concentrated on eastern matters, in 1800 about 50% of its population was Polish, it interacted heavily with Russia and rivaled with Habsburgs and Saxony (Silesia, Erz) - Kingdom of Prussia grabbed over half of Saxony after wars, but it was not really expanding west before mid of XiX century

2) Germany (as I imagine) should concentrate on Central Germany and try to stop French expansion on lower Rhein


3) do you have any tags for Napoleonic "Germany" (Confederation of the Rhine)? Or you just expand existing minors?

IMO Confederation of Rhine deserves GER tag better, and Ducal Prussia can be reverted to LAT tag.


Edit: about plausability: I guess that you are more or less correct, however in XIX century it was Prussian (from Ducal Prussia and Pomerania) aristocracy which dominated Kingdom of Prussia; but it were Brandenburg rulers who centralized and modernized country

From the game perspective if Ducal Prussia is not led by Human it should not create kingdom of Prussia, so GER could be reused
- but it would suck, because imagine that after imperial reforms you get country called Kingdom of Prussia :rofl: and vice versa Kingdom of Prussia should not be called Germany because it wa kingdom of Prussia

 

[unmerged(40707)]

Ok, if Brandenburg exists => just two events to script for human:
1) inherit Brandenburg
2) become Brandenburg, gain core on Brandenburg territory and set flag ClaimonPrussia

If Brandenburg doesn't exist, why not becoming "Brandenburg" immediatly, gain core on Brandenburg territory and set flag ClaimOnPrussia?

In both cases, last needed event of the sequence: when Brandenburg (312) is owned, move capital to Berlin

In all cases, we need modification to this event:

#(1701-1760) The Kingdom of Prussia
#changed by Neuro - modified by YodaMaster and SirCentipede
event = {
	id = 3524
	trigger = {
		OR = {
			owned = { province = 290 data = -1 } #Prussia
			flag = ClaimOnPrussia
		}
		[COLOR=Yellow]owned = { province = 312 data = -1 } #Brandenburg[/COLOR]
	}
	random = no
	country = BRA
	name = "EVENTNAME3524" #The Kingdom of Prussia
	desc = "EVENTHIST3524"
	#-#

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1701 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1760 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME3524A" #The Kingdom of Prussia is born!
		command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 8000 }
		command = { type = treasury value = 100 }
		command = { type = treasury value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -40 }
		command = { type = diplomats value = 3 }
		command = { type = flagname which = "" }
		command = { type = country which = PRU }
		command = { type = provinceculture which = 290 value = german } #Prussia
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME3524B" #Stay Elector-Prince!
		command = { type = stability value = 2 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = 40 }
		command = { type = removecore which = 289 } #Memel
		command = { type = removecore which = 290 } #Prussia
	}
}

And we have the solution for AI too (in order of preference):
1) inheritance by Brandenburg
or, if not possible:
2) inheritance by Poland
or, if not possible:
3) inheritance by Courland (why not)
or, if not possible:
4) inheritance by Germany (could be achieved by human)
or, if not possible:
5) becoming "Brandenburg" (same as human)

 

[zdlugasz]

Ok I will check what is needed and write it.

However human should also have choice. I propose to use two or three sons in law
A) inherit/became Brandenburg -> Prussia
B) inherit Courland and became Courland (Polish vassal and also small so not really attractive, unless we we
C) give Ducal title to young Vasa prince and, why not, after 1632 election in Poland became Poland!
D) ? die hard independence with Bayeruth dynasty ?

So first event fires for human Prussia in 1618, if it did not fire Brandenburg ask Poland to gain Prussia, Poland agrees but the actual inheritance IMO should be after 1655 (treaty was in 1657).

 

[unmerged(40707)]

IMHO, A choice is the most attractive for good monarchs, leaders and events but others could be fine. Be careful with cultures. In B and C, German culture should be lost.

 

[zdlugasz]

And we have the solution for AI too (in order of preference):
...
3)
4) inheritance by Germany (could be achieved by human)
or, if not possible:
5) becoming "Brandenburg" (same as human)

Hohenzollerns, ruler of Courland (also Saxony and Margrave of Bayeruth) were sons in law of last duke. Poland was suzerain. What kind legitimacy has Germany? (which I guess is centralized Holy Roman Empire of German Nation?). If Germany is not HRE it does not have legitimacy.
Teutonic Order recognized Emperor as ultimate suzerain, however after lost wars against Poland renounced its ties and any arbitration of Emperor and HRE. And later TO was secularized and became first ever protestant dukedom in Europe and thus in the world.
I have to assure you that this was neither supported by the Papacy nor by the Emperor. Secularization meant severing all ties with Empire.
And from the game perspective I do not think that human player who created Germany does need any more goodies (like extra cores and inheritance of Prussia).

 

[zdlugasz]

IMHO, A choice is the most attractive for good monarchs, leaders and events but others could be fine. Be careful with cultures. In B and C, German culture should be lost.

In C for sure, but why in B? Courland is succesor of another Order, similar population with germanized nobility. Courland loses ugric culture but keeps german and is one-province minor. IMO german could be kept and maybe event ugric restored - so bigger Courland can try to reconquer lands of Livonian Order.

And I think I will drop option D because the only possible free tags are that of two Orders (LAT, LIV) and it would look really strange to have protestant Order on the map of Europe in XVIII century .
There is also LIT (Lithuania), which normally should not exist in XVII century, but it also would be weird.

 

[unmerged(40707)]

In AGCEEP, alternative Kingdom of Germany is formed by Emperor of HRE. I don't see Brandenburg able to reborn since formely part of this kingdom. That's all.

Ok for Courland and German culture. I forgot Livonian Order has German culture from start and becomes Courland by event with same cultures.

Ok, no D.

 

[zdlugasz]

In AGCEEP, alternative Kingdom of Germany is formed by Emperor of HRE. I don't see Brandenburg able to reborn since formely part of this kingdom. That's all.

The possible "D" could be Saxony, but I do not think it would be worth effort. There is better Brandenburg choice.

Regarding Germany: OK, no Brandenburg, but IMO it leaves two choices: inheritance by Poland or (inheritance and) forming Courland.

Courland alternative would work and is plausible even if POL, KUR, BRA etc do not exist: just change tag and add cores and ugric culture so we have expansionistic Courland.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

In 1648 scenario Brandenburg elector should be _PARTIALLY_ vassal of Poland, because of Ducal Prussia - area which was left after unlamented Teutonic Order.
Poland agreed that Hohenzollerns may inherit Prussia, but still remianed overlord/suzerain of Prussia. Elector did not like it and during time some Polish Kings allowed to limit their rights regarding Prussia.
In 1641 Polish king Wladyslaw received the last vassal homage from Elector. Because he needed money or something he agreed that Elector does not need to humilitate himself personally and his envoy did it.
It was in fact in 1657, when Poland freed Elector from his oath in order to "bribe" him to switch sides see here when Elector betrayed his suzerain and attacked Poland together with Sweden.
That event which allows Brandenburgia inherit Prussia in 1618 was in fact only PERSONAL UNION, meaning that ruler of two countries was the same. In one country he was Elector of HRE and in other he was duke of Prussia and vassal of Polish king.
The most historically accurate thing would be to put Prussia into 1648 scenario back as vassal of poland but in alliance with Brandenburg and script event breaking vassalage if Poland is in any war and script inheritance by Brandenburg.
Waiting for opinions

My opinion, partly based on the book "Geschichte Preussens" (History of Prussia?) by Hannsjoachim W. Koch is this:
Prussia began as a vassal of Poland. 1648 this vassalage was already more a formality than a political reality. That can be seen, e.g. by the cease fire of Stuhmdorf that Brandenburg 24.07.1641 entered with Sweden intended to last 2 years - the fear that Poland now would suffer the full swedish force was the leverage Friedrich Wilhelm used to be acknowledged as ruler of Prussia by Wladislaw and the only condition the polish ruler could still demand was FW´s personal presence for the ceremony on 7.10.1641.
However also formally Brandenburg is a vassal of the emperor. Yet in the game there is no vassalage of any german state to the emperor modelled that would cost that german state anything.

Having Prussia be a vassal to Poland will mean that Poland get´s half the tax of Prussia - and Brandenburg will get no financial gains while being the actual ruler of Prussia.

I would suggest to simulate the formal vassalage by a few events in which Brandenburg-Prussia has to pay a few ducats to Prussia until 1657. Then Brandenburg will have full control of Prussia and Poland will still receive some benefits from being the formal overlord of Prussia.

 

[zdlugasz]

Having Prussia be a vassal to Poland will mean that Poland get´s half the tax of Prussia - and Brandenburg will get no financial gains while being the actual ruler of Prussia.

That is true.

I sould suggest to simulate the formal vassalage by a few events in which Brandenburg-Prussia has to pay a few ducats to Prussia until 1657. Then Brandenburg will have full control of Prussia and Poland will still receive some benefits from being the formal overlord of Prussia.

I would suggest to give only option A in such events. One of reasons would be higher income from Prussia than is due.

Even if we come to the agreement for 1648 scenario, I would like to discuss date of actual "inheritance". I have biography of Wladyslaw and some books about Polish Vasas and e.g. in 1620-ties and 30-ties Poland had significant control over Prussia.
In Prussia Elector was not hereditary ruler and had substatial opposition of cities and nobility, which preferred non-centralized Poland and liberties offered in Poland, than hard hand of Elector.
The truth is that Polish king was guarant of treaties which guaranteed that Elector e.g. can not rise taxes in Prussia without agreement of local Parliament/Diet. So local nobility an cities could always use Polish king as lever in their struggles against Elector encroaching their liberties.

E.g. war between Sweden and Poland 1626-1629 was fought on the area of Prussia and Pomerania (province Danzig). Swedes took over some Prussian cities and 6 year armistice in 1629 left e.g. Memel in Swedish hands (as recompensation Elector got for a few years some Polish cities). In 1626 Polish king also demanded that Prussian troops and fleet had to support him against Sweden.
In 1634/1635 when Wladyslaw was preparing for another round of war with Sweden he just entered Prussia, put his garrisons in cities, nominated his own governor over the whole province and was even collecting taxes (since Elector was supposed to support him again).
So e.g. in 1635 Elector had exactly NULL control over Prussia.

IIRC it was in the second half of 1630-ties (1637, 1638?) when Wladyslaw resigned his privilige to judge Poles or matters concerning Poland in Prussia. So inheritance as in game is completely ahistorical in 1618.

Edit:
Regarding vassalization: it is true for HRE, however (alost) all other vassalizations are modelled in game as vassalizations. It is all matter of control. While after 1650 Polish control might be not significant, it was substantial before.
If it was nothing, George would not pay homage in 1641; he would just say "f*ck off" and wait for Polish response in alliance with Sweden.

 

[zdlugasz]

Elector also did not have right to keep mercenary or Brandenburg troops on the area of Duchy (without permission). Only local troops could be stationed there.
This guaranteed that Elector had no lever against opposing Prusians, as local troops were led by local nobility.

 

[zdlugasz]

I think I have found another bug in existing chain.

If event A sleeps event C, I assume that later event B can not trigger this event C.
Am I right?

 

[zdlugasz]

Question: if Prussia has chosen to be vassal of Poland in 1526 (human probably will not agree so the situation is purely theoretical, but if he agrees he should face consequences) then Poland can chose "stick with treaty" and expect to inherit Prussia.

Since human can not be inherited, I think some recompensation for Poland is due. Polish king can be bribed etc.
But because human Prussia (probably) has already taken a few Polish provinces than DoW from Poland may be just easy way for Prussia to gain cheaply (BB wise) a few more provinces.
I propose that recompensation could be cash, return of Masovia, Wielkopolska, Podlasia, Lithuania (maybe also Poznan and Byelorussia) and troops for Poland. (Notice that I do not propose return of Danzig )
If human player has already destroyed Poland he is free to do what he wants

 

[ConjurerDragon]

Question: if Prussia has chosen to be vassal of Poland in 1526 (human probably will not agree so the situation is purely theoretical, but if he agrees he should face consequences) then Poland can chose "stick with treaty" and expect to inherit Prussia.
Since human can not be inherited, I think some recompensation for Poland is due. Polish king can be bribed etc.
But because human Prussia (probably) has already taken a few Polish provinces than DoW from Poland may be just easy way for Prussia to gain cheaply (BB wise) a few more provinces.
I propose that recompensation could be cash, return of Masovia, Wielkopolska, Podlasia, Lithuania (maybe also Poznan and Byelorussia) and troops for Poland. (Notice that I do not propose return of Danzig )
If human player has already destroyed Poland he is free to do what he wants

Can a human never be inherited and there are events in which a human player can choose to be inherited abusing that he can´t be?

Why then are some events marked with "possible END GAME" as warning?

 

[zdlugasz]

Can a human never be inherited and there are events in which a human player can choose to be inherited abusing that he can´t be?

Why then are some events marked with "possible END GAME" as warning?

Frankly speaking I have never though of selecting such option myself so I am just taking Yoda's word.

I guess that these "END GAME" are for players to avoid it (since nobody wants to give up) and avoid possible crash (if it is what happens).
And if game does not crash and allows to play /abuse (I guess that keeping independence might be connected with stab hits etc) we can not do anything about it.

 

[unmerged(40707)]

About slept event: a slept event can't fire at all (ie. not even be triggered by another event).

About "possible End Game" and "End Game":
"possible End Game" means chosen action can end with inheritance of the country but not sure according to choices not made by the country itself
"End Game" means immediate inheritance

And yes, this is a warning for players to not make this choice. Remember, when military annexed, you go directly to end game statistics but this is not the case with inheritance by event and game keeps going... You shouldn't be able to play after that. Otherwise, events could have strange behaviour, assuming country was inherited.

 

[zdlugasz]

Question: I have just found that Courland has events playing marriage of daughter of the last Prussian duke and prince of Courland.
There is 5% chance that Courland will abandon marriage and 5% chance that Prussia will not agree. If marriage plans fail inheritance of/by Courland would look stupid. And it causes problem for the AI chain (also human who would like to became Courland).

Inheritance by Brandenburg is most probable, if BRA does not exist and Poland vassalized Prussia then Poland can inherit. But if Poland did not vassalize and BRA did not inherit then I just wanted to dump Prussia and Courland together.

Should I "forget" about possible failure of marriage between Prussia and Courland? The only fallback position is to form Brandenburg, but if GER exists it would be strange and inplausible (or we would have to decide what to do with Ducal Prussia if GER exists, BRA does not, POL could not inherit, Courland prince did not marry daugther of Albrecht and script another events).
For the sake of simplicity I will assume (at leat for now) that this marriage happened. - but thinking more about it - ANY succesor of Prussia (Brandenburg, Courland) should get cores and inherit Cleve (Poland probably would not care)


BTW. Courland file includes also Polish and Prussian events

 

[unmerged(40707)]

BTW. Courland file includes also Polish and Prussian events

Not anymore in 1.43 "beta". See Compiling 1.43 thread post #1.

Even if marriage wasn't, why Courland couldn't "inherit" Prussia after 1618 if there is no other choice for the Duchy? IMHO, it is still plausible. It could be a pure annexation in this case.