Ducal Prussia

unmerged(16323) · Sep 18, 2004

Lately while playing with Poland I got fed up with teh determinism of the Ducal Prussia events.

It's obvious that the first thing a human playing Poland would try to destroy the TO. Historically speaking that's exactly what Kazimierz IV would if he had won a total victory over TO in 13 years war.

Fine, but what about the consequences? Let's say Poland annexes TO (by either force annexion or force vassalization+diplo annexion) And what now? A chain of events

- Livonian Order gets cores on Memel and Prussia.
- Brandenburg gets CB on Poland
- The Emperor gets CB on Poland or even worse. Maybe some sort of a crusade against Poland?

Ok so Poland manages to keep Ducal Prussia (as from now we will call it like that). Here comes 1524. An event titled "Protestant influence in Prussia" with a good story of Albrecht the converted livonian knight

This event should have 2 choices:
1. "Create Prussia": release Prussia, +200 with Brandenburg, centralization +1, innovativeness +1, (possible a refinery in Danzig)
2. "Keep it": 3x revolt in Prussia and Memel, -100 with Brandenburg, revoltrisk +5 for 2 years (Poland was a tolerant state)

Yes I know this event looks weird and is not historically justified at all but it's here just to make the game back on historical track. Note that it gives an alternative and the current events don't give any :/

If we release them we have the historical Treaty of Krakow in which it's clearly stated that only males in the Prussian Hohenzollern line were allowed to inherit the Duchy. If there was no heir than polish king was allowed to incorporate Prussia into Corona.

On 5 XI 1611 Seym decided to allow the Hohenzollern-Brandenburg line to inherit the duchy after the end of Hohenzollern-Prussia line (http://alatusmortis.w.interia.pl/index_58.htm, although its in polish :/). This was caused by the polish involvement in dimitryada (spelled it correctly?) and that Zygmunt III was hoping to have Brandenburg as an ally in his war with Sweden, or at least keep them out of that war.

So an event that would trigger with atwar = yes would have the following options:
1. "Allow Hohenzollern-Brandenburg to inherit", +300 Brandenburg, Dynastic Brandenburg, +200 Emperor, some troops, triggers event 1 for Brandenburg)
2. "Incorporate into Corona", -200 Brandenburg, -100 Emperor, some desertions (to make it more painful), +3 RR for 3 years (it was szlachtas decision), -300 ducats (to buy off Hohenzollern suppporters ) -2 stability, trigger event 2 for Brandenburg, setflag Incorporate Prussia

Now an event triggered by IncorporatePrussia flag should annex Prussia and give Poland cores on Prussia and Memel (as this would be according to the Treaty of Krakow, justified annexion) and also -1 Land (more baltic-oriented), Naval +750, -300 ducats (the cost of incorporation).

The first event for Brandenburg (when they are allowed to inherit) should set a flag PrussiaYes.

The second one gives 3 options:
1. "It's Hohenzollern lands! It's ours!" It gives cores on Prussia and Memel and some troops (about 20k) + also some gold (300 ducats?) to simulate the sponsoring of a country with whom Poland is at war. Sets PrussiaNo.
2. "We have claims" Sets PrussiaNo. (shoudl it give cores?)
3. "We care not for the east!". Relations with Poland +300.

This way we don't force the player to release Prussia all the time and give the option to get cores on it but with a certain price.
Also Brandenburg would be able to become Prussia without owning it. They would still have the claim on the title Duke of Prussia. Of course becoming Prussia should be easier with PrussiaYes.

What do you think? It's only a proposal and yes I know that these events are mostly fiction and that they may be historically inaccurate but somethign should be done about the Prussia events.

unmerged(6159) · Sep 20, 2004

Seems like a good idea.

Mad King James · Sep 20, 2004

Originally the AGC had an event a lot like this actually, for the same reasons. I know this cause I made it myself

unmerged(16323) · Sep 21, 2004

Mayby someone's got any ideas, proposals... Mayby something regarding how the Brandenburg2Prussia events should look like?

MKJ could you find the event's you've written? They would be somethings we could build upon.

If we agree upon the way these events should be handled, I can script them, but really need suggestions because I'm not an expert in Brandenburg-Prussia history. anyone?

unmerged(16323) · Oct 1, 2004

I've decided to code some events. Especially the ones dealing with Teutonic Order's independence. These don't trigger for Poland and Livonian Order, since both of them have their own specific events dealing with TO indepepndence.

Code:

# Teutonic Order restoration events (1419-1510)
event = {
	id = 209000
	name = "The Lands of Teutonic Order"
	desc = "The Teutonic Order's presence in the baltic region dates back to 1225 when Duke Conrad of Massovia asked the Teutonic knights to come and aid him against the Prussian pagans' raids. Having the backing of the Pope, the Holy Roman Emperor and the minor german states, the Teutonic Order rose up to become a major power in the southern baltic coast. Now their lands are ours. Shall we give them back to the order or keep them for ourselves?"
	random = no
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1510 }
	province = 290 # Prussia
	trigger = {
		NOT = {
			core = { province = 302 data = -1 }
			exists = PRU
			exists = LAT
			OR = {
				 owned = { province = 290 data = POL } # Prussia
				 owned = { province = 290 data = LIV } # Prussia
			}
		}	
		OR = {
			religion = catholic
			religion = counterreform
			religion = protestant
			religion = reformed
		}	
	}
	style = 1
	action_a = {
		name = "Let's restore them"
		command = { type = independence which = LAT }
		command = { type = badboy value = -3 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = 100 } #All other Catholics nations.
		command = { type = relation which = BRA value = 100 } #All other Catholics nations.
		command = { type = relation which = POL value = -50 } #All other Catholics nations.
		command = { type = relation which = LIT value = -50 } #All other Catholics nations.
		command = { type = relation which = STT value = 100 } #All other Catholics nations
		command = { type = relation which = POM value = -50 } 
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = LAT value = 289 } # Memel
		command = {type = VP value = 50 } 
	}

	action_b = {
		name = "We will keep Prussia!"
		command = { type = badboy value = 3 } 
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 290 } # Prussia
		command = { type = revolt which = 290 } # Prussia 
		command = { type = revolt which = 289 } # Memel
		command = { type = revolt which = 289 } # Memel		
	}
}

# Teutonic Order restoration events (1510-1523)
event = {
	id = 209001
	name = "The Lands of Teutonic Order"
	desc = "The Teutonic Order's presence in the baltic region dates back to 1225 when Duke Conrad of Massovia asked the Teutonic knights to come and aid him against the Prussian pagans' raids. Having the backing of the Pope, the Holy Roman Emperor and the minor german states, the Teutonic Order rose up to become a major power in the southern baltic coast. Now their lands are ours. Shall we give them back to the order or keep them for ourselves?"
	random = no
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1510 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1523 }
	province = 290 # Prussia
	trigger = {
		NOT = {
			core = { province = 302 data = -1 }
			exists = PRU
			exists = LAT
			OR = {
				 owned = { province = 290 data = POL } # Prussia
				 owned = { province = 290 data = LIV } # Prussia
			}
		}	
		OR = {
			religion = catholic
			religion = counterreform
			religion = protestant
			religion = reformed
		}	
	}
	style = 1
	action_a = {
		name = "Let's restore them"
		command = { type = independence which = LAT }
		command = { type = badboy value = -3 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = 100 } #All other Catholics nations.
		command = { type = relation which = BRA value = 100 } #All other Catholics nations.
		command = { type = relation which = POL value = -50 } #All other Catholics nations.
		command = { type = relation which = LIT value = -50 } #All other Catholics nations.
		command = { type = relation which = STT value = 100 } #All other Catholics nations.
		command = { type = relation which = POM value = -50 }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = LAT value = 289 } # Memel
		command = {type = VP value = 50 } 
	}

	action_b = {
		name = "We will keep Prussia!"
		command = { type = badboy value = 3 } 
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 290 } # Prussia
		command = { type = revolt which = 290 } # Prussia
		command = { type = revolt which = 289 } # Memel
		command = { type = revolt which = 289 } # Memel
		
	}
}

What do you think?

unmerged(16323) · Oct 1, 2004

Apart from these Teutonic Order independence events I've created the Ducal Prussia creation event sequence:

Livonian Order:

Code:

## Livonan Order reacts to Poland owning Prussia
# Covers both Ducal Prussia and Teutonic Order
event = {
	id = 381000
	trigger = {
		owned = { province = 290 data = POL } # Prussia
		NOT = { exists = LAT }
		NOT = { exists = PRU }
	}
	random = no
	country = LIV
	name = "Poland owns Prussia"
	desc = "The Teutonic Order was a always the main enemy of Poland. In 1410 at Tannenberg Wladislaw Jagiello won a tremendous victory over the knights but failed to drive them out of Prussia. However, his successors have managed to accomplish that and Prussia is now in polish hands. What shall we do?"
	style = 2
	
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
	offset = 60
	#deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1520 }
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1660 } # Extendend to claiming of Ducal Prussia
	action_a = {
		name = "We must regain these lands!"
		command = { type = relation which = POL value = -200 }
		command = { type = relation which = BRA value = 100 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = 100 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 289 } # Memel
		command = { type = addcore which = 290 } # Prussia
		command = { type = casusbelli which = POL value = 60 }
		command = { type = INF which = -2 value = 5000 } # Help from Germany
		command = { type = CAV which = -2 value = 5000 } # Help from Germany
		command = { type = treasury value = 200 } # Help from Germany
	}
	action_b = {
		name = "We have no interest in it"
		command = { type = relation which = POL value = 300 }
		command = { type = relation which = BRA value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -50 }
		command = { type = casusbelli which = POL value = 60 }
		command = { type = treasury value = 100 } # Help from Germany
	}	
}

## Albert Hohenzollern Secularizes Prussia
event = {
	id = 381001
	trigger = {
		owned = { province = 290 data = -1 } # Prussia
		exists = POL
	}
	random = no
	country = LIV
	name = "Secularization of Prussia"
	desc = "Through the secularization (1525) of the domain of the Teutonic Order by the Grand Master Albert of Brandenburg, the domain became a hereditary duchy under Polish suzerainty, ruled by a branch of the Hohenzollern dynasty of Brandenburg"
	style = 2
	
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1524 }
	offset = 60
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1540 }
	
	action_a = {
		name = "We can't stop him"
		command = { type = independence  which = PRU }
		command = { type = relation which = PRU value = -200 }
		command = { type = removecore which = 289 } # Memel
		command = { type = removecore which = 290 } # Prussia
		command = { type = casusbelli which = PRU value = 60 }
	}
}

Teutonic Order (in addition to the Teutonic Order restoration events):

Code:

# The Fate of the Teutonic Order
# Previous version: Raudex-EEP

event = {
	id = 209002
	trigger = {		
		NOT = {	exists = PRU }
		exists = POL
	}
	random = no
	country = LAT
	name = "The Fate of the Teutonic Order"
	desc = "The last Grandmaster of the Teutonic Order, Albrecht von Brandenburg, decided to secularize the Order in 1525 and created Duchy of Prussia as a Polish vassal. The Brandenburg branch of Hohenzollerns became the rulers of the Duchy"
	style = 2

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1524 }

	action_a ={
		name = "Become the Duchy of Prussia"
		command = { type = independence which = MIN } # Masovia
		command = { type = independence which = LIV } # Livonian Order
		command = { type = religion which = protestant }
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = POL value = 301 } # Danzig
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = POL value = 303 } # Poznan
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = POL value = 300 } # Wielkopolska
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = POL value = 292 } # Podlasia
		# In 1.08 changing religion doesn't break vassalage
		command = { type = breakvassal  which = DEN }
		command = { type = breakvassal  which = SWE }
		command = { type = breakvassal  which = LIT }
		command = { type = breakvassal  which = MEI }
		command = { type = breakvassal  which = LIV }
		command = { type = breakvassal  which = BRA }
		command = { type = country which = PRU }
		command = { type = treasury value = 500 }
		command = { type = stability value = 6 }
	}
	action_b ={
		name = "Continue as the Order"
		command = { type = stability value = -3 }
		command = { type = treasury value = -200 }
		command = { type = religion which = catholic }
		command = { type = domestic which = ARISTOCRACY value = 3 }
		command = { type = domestic which = INNOVATIVE value = -3 }
		command = { type = domestic which = SERFDOM value = 3 }
	}
}

Ducal Prussia. Does some cleaning (returning land to Poland, releasing countries). Don't know if they should keep Danzig.

Code:

#Hohenzollern Prussia become Polish Duchy#
event = {

	id = 263020
	trigger = {
		exists = POL  
		AND = { OR = {
				religion = protestant
				religion = reformed
			}
		}
	}
	random = no
	country = PRU
	name = "EVENTNAME3516"
	desc = "EVENTHIST3516"
	style = 2

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1524 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1540 }

	action_a ={				#Secularize as Polish vassal#
		name = "ACTIONNAME3516A"
		command = { type = breakvassal  which = DEN }
		command = { type = breakvassal  which = SWE }
		command = { type = breakvassal  which = LIT }
		command = { type = breakvassal  which = MEI }
		command = { type = breakvassal  which = LIV }
		command = { type = breakvassal  which = BRA }
		command = { type = stability value = 2 }
		
		command = { type = relation which = LIV value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = POL value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = BRA value = 150 }
		command = { type = dynastic which = BRA }
		
		command = { type = trigger which = 258231 } # POL258231: Treaty of Cracov
		
	}

	action_b ={				#Secularize as independent country#
		name = "ACTIONNAME3516B"
		command = { type = breakvassal  which = DEN }
		command = { type = breakvassal  which = SWE }
		command = { type = breakvassal  which = LIT }
		command = { type = breakvassal  which = MEI }
		command = { type = breakvassal  which = LIV }
		command = { type = breakvassal  which = BRA }
		command = { type = breakvassal  which = POL }
		
		command = { type = relation which = LIV value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = POL value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = BRA value = 150 }
		command = { type = dynastic which = BRA }
	}
}

Poland.

Code:

## Lands of Teutonic Order
event = {
	id = 258230
	trigger = {
		owned = { province = 290 data = POL } # Prussia
		NOT = { exists = LAT }

	}
	random = no
	country = POL
	name = "The Lands of Teutonic Order"
	desc = "The Teutonic Order was a always the main enemy of Poland. In 1410 at Tannenberg Wladislaw Jagiello won a tremendous victory over the knights but failed to drive them out of Prussia. However, now we have managed to accomplish that and Prussia is now in our hands. Unfortunatly, since the Teutons had the status of a christian order and were closely related to the Holy Roman Empire, both the Emperor and the Pope aren't happy. What shall we do?"
	style = 2
	
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
	offset = 60
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1523 }
	
	action_a = {
		name = "Let's restore them."
		command = { type = independence  which = LAT }
		command = { type = relation which = LAT value = 300 }
		command = { type = relation which = BRA value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = PAP value = 150 }
		command = { type = stability value = -1 } # unpopular in Poland
		command = { type = treasury value = 200 } 
		command = { type = badboy value = -5 }
	}	

	

	action_b = {
		name = "We will keep Prussia!"
		command = { type = relation which = BRA value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -100 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -100 }
		command = { type = badboy value = 4 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 290 } # Prussia
		command = { type = revolt which = 290 } # Prussia
		command = { type = revolt which = 289 } # Memel
		command = { type = revolt which = 289 } # Memel
		command = { type = treasury value = -200 } # diplomatical effort
		command = { type = trigger which = 381001 } # LIV381001: Poland owns Prussia
	}

}

# Treaty of Cracov#
event = {

	id = 258231			#Triggered by PRU209002 #
	random = no
	country = POL
	name = "Treaty of Cracov"
	desc = "EVENTHIST3474"
	style = 2

	action_a ={			#Accept the New Vassal#
		name = "ACTIONNAME3474A"
		command = { type = vassal which = PRU }
		command = { type = relation which = LIV value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = PRU value = 50 }
		command = { type = relation which = BRA value = 100 }
		command = { type = setflag which = PrussiaVassalized }
		command = { type = provincetax which = 301 value = 2 } # Danzig becomes the main port
	}

	action_b ={			#Claim Ownership#
		name = "ACTIONNAME3474B"
		command = { type = casusbelli which = PRU value = 240 }
		command = { type = relation which = LIV value = -150 }
		command = { type = relation which = PRU value = -200 }
		command = { type = relation which = BRA value = -200 }
		command = { type = treasury value = -250 }
		command = { type = badboy value = 5 }
		command = { type = setflag which = PrussiaClaimed }
		command = { type = trigger which = 132020 } # BRA132020: Poland claims Ducal Prussia
	}
}


# Lands of Prussia #
# Poland went with "Claim Ownership" and controls Prussia
event = {

	id = 258232
	trigger = {
		owned = { province = 290 data = POL } # Prussia
		NOT = { exists = PRU }
		flag = PrussiaClaimed

	}	
	random = no
	country = POL
	name = "Lands of Prussia"
	desc = "Soon after king Zygmunt refused to sign the Treaty of Cracov and claimed ownership over the lands of Prussia a war broke out. After years of heavy fighting we finally managed to annex them. We can proclaim ourselves the rightfull owners of these lands, but surely both the Hohenzollerns in Brandenburg and the Emperor won't like it."
	style = 2

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1524 }
	offset = 60
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1660 }

	action_a ={			
		name = "These are our lands!"
		command = { type = relation which = BRA value = -200 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = -100 }
		command = { type = relation which = LIV value = -100 }
		command = { type = relation which = SWE value = -100 }
		command = { type = relation which = DEN value = -100 }
		command = { type = provincetax which = 301 value = -2 } # Danzig less significant
		command = { type = provincetax which = 290 value = 2 } # Konigsberg becomes more important
		command = { type = addcore which = 289 } # Memel
		command = { type = addcore which = 290 } # Prussia
		command = { type = treasury value = -250 }
		command = { type = stability value = -2 } 
		command = { type = badboy value = 7 }
	}

	action_b ={			
		name = "Restore the Duchy"
		command = { type = independence  which = PRU }
		command = { type = relation which = PRU value = 300 }
		command = { type = relation which = BRA value = 200 }
		command = { type = relation which = HAB value = 150 }
		command = { type = relation which = LIV value = 150 }
		command = { type = stability value = -1 } # unpopular in Poland
		
		command = { type = treasury value = 250 }
		command = { type = badboy value = -5 }
		command = { type = setflag which = PrussiaVassalized }
		command = { type = clrflag which = PrussiaClaimed }
	}
}

Brandenburg:

Code:

# Poland claims Ducal Prussia
event = {

	id = 132020			#Triggered by POL258231B #
	random = no
	country = BRA
	name = "Poland claims Hohenzollern Prussia"
	desc = "In 1525 during the religious turmoil of the Reformation one of the early converters to the new religion was the Teutonic Orders' Grandmaster from Brandenburg, Albrecht of Hohenzollern. Inspired by Luther he also decides to secularize the land areas under his control, Prussia, into a protestant duchy. However, knowing that this would earn him the eternal enmity of his former Order he had to go for help with its greatest enemy, Poland-Lithuania. However Poland-Lithuania decided to claim his lands instead. Shall we help our family member?"
	style = 2

	action_a ={		
		name = "Help Albert!"
		command = { type = vassal which = PRU }
		command = { type = alliance which = PRU }
		command = { type = relation which = LIV value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = PRU value = 300 }
		command = { type = relation which = POL value = -200 }
		command = { type = treasury value = 250 }  # Help from other german states
		command = { type = INF which = -2 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = CAV which = -2 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = setflag which = ClaimOnPrussia }
		command = { type = casusbelli which = POL value = 240 }
	}

	action_b ={			
		name = "We can't help them now"
		command = { type = casusbelli which = POL value = 240 }
		command = { type = relation which = LIV value = 100 }
		command = { type = relation which = PRU value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = POL value = 100 }

	}
}

The real changes (apart form rescripting them and using the AGCEPP country ids) are the Teutonic Order independence events and the 2 way Treaty of Cracov event (formal "Hohenzollern Prussia Becomes a Polish Duchy").

If the TO never turned into Ducal Prussia the Hohenzollern would never had had any justified claim to the lands of Prussia. Therefore there would have been no chance of Kingdom of Prussia to emerge.

As for the 2nd choice in the Treaty of Cracov event. It gives the Hohenzollerns in Brandenburg the claim on Prussia (flag ClaimOnPrussia), thus making future proclamation (based on that claim) of Kingdom of Prussia possible. I will write events regarding that when I find some time. Also it allows Poland to gain cores on Prussia but for a huge price. Still worth for a human player.

What do you think?

Jester · Oct 2, 2004

I am liking how this looks...keep it up

Late,
JEster

unmerged(16323) · Oct 2, 2004

I've encountered a real problem regarding Prussia's monarch files

It uses the same ids as the Brabant (HAU) monarchs thus crashing the game when two of them exist at the same time.

Also I think that the PRU monarch file should be extended to include all of the rulers starting from Albert Hohenzollern. Currently it only contains monarchs from the Kingdom of Prussia period.

Anyone could give me a hand with these? I'd like to know which id range should it use (because AFAIK the one given in the monarhc id thread is too short for a joint Duchy and Kingdom file). Should it include the Regents or just Albert Freidrich?

Sikker · Oct 2, 2004

Good to see these events rethought. However I have some issues with the following:

event 209002: Why does TO have to give up all lands they have taken to become Prussia? It seems odd to give up LIV when they were a part of the same order, and it's just as weird to give back lands to their greatest enemy thrugh time: Poland (and therefore also Masovia). I disagree with this. Prussia should hold unto their gains.

event 258230: I can see why others might be dissatisfied with the annexation of TO. But this is included in the annexation costs. But BB -and relationswise. It is not fair to incur extra BB on Poland for defeating it's worst enemy. And I certainly cannot see why on earth they should let go of them. And certainly not for a measly 5 BB reduction - it's cost (at least) 2BB to Dow, 6BB for 4 provinces taken (one is core) and 6BB for annexation. All in all 16BB ... and now they get 5 back. Yay. This entire events is not good.
Poland should be rewarded for defeating her enemy - not punished.

event 258231: again the 55 BB is not needed. Poland gets 8 for taking the final province. Especially since event 258232 gives another mad 7 BBs. Poland gets 6 BB for annexing EVEN with the core. Please rethink this.

event 209000: Again I don't like that you get BB for keeping something you've already paid for. Reduce relations instead.

unmerged(16323) · Oct 2, 2004

Sikker said:
Good to see these events rethought. However I have some issues with the following:

event 209002: Why does TO have to give up all lands they have taken to become Prussia? It seems odd to give up LIV when they were a part of the same order, and it's just as weird to give back lands to their greatest enemy thrugh time: Poland (and therefore also Masovia). I disagree with this. Prussia should hold unto their gains.

I can't agree with you on this one. Historicaly the secularization of Teutonic Order and formation of Prussia was possible only due to the fact that TO was losing a war with Poland. Yes, you could say "why not script a war then".. but I wanted to avoid the actual in-game war at all cost, seeing what a scripted war causes to historical plausibility (for example the Hussite wars).

As for the Livonian Order question... it's again historicaly correct. The Teutonic Order and the Livonian Knights were actually one, however the LO had some sort of autonomy. Therefore when Albrecht decided to secularize Prussia, he only got the TO's lands becasue he hadn't had that much of influence on the LO lands.

IMHO.. if we were to stick with history, then the player choosing to become Prussia should only get Prussia. If he want's to keep his previosu gains, he would still be the TO.

event 258230: I can see why others might be dissatisfied with the annexation of TO. But this is included in the annexation costs. But BB -and relationswise. It is not fair to incur extra BB on Poland for defeating it's worst enemy. And I certainly cannot see why on earth they should let go of them. And certainly not for a measly 5 BB reduction - it's cost (at least) 2BB to Dow, 6BB for 4 provinces taken (one is core) and 6BB for annexation. All in all 16BB ... and now they get 5 back. Yay. This entire events is not good.
Poland should be rewarded for defeating her enemy - not punished.

As for rewarding instead of punishing... I don't agree. Just look what happend by the end of the 13 years war. There was much diplomatic and political pressure on Poland to let TO be. Not to mention the military support To got from the HRE states. So it's historicaly correct to punish Poland for keeping Prussia (since it was officialy papal territory, and the Knights were under protection fo the Emperor).

In the first version fo this event I had "Let's keep Prussia" as option A. But decided that the AI should ratehr release the TO to get back on the historical track.

As for the BB numbers, yes.. I agree. They should eb tweaked.

event 258231: again the 55 BB is not needed. Poland gets 8 for taking the final province. Especially since event 258232 gives another mad 7 BBs. Poland gets 6 BB for annexing EVEN with the core. Please rethink this.

event 209000: Again I don't like that you get BB for keeping something you've already paid for. Reduce relations instead.

Just as with teh events allowing Poland to keep TO's lands. TO wasn't a minor state somewhere in the Balkans (like Wallachia). They had huge support all over Europe. The BB is here to simulate it.

Old Joe · Oct 2, 2004

good idea, but 5bb is too much and core on konigsberg should be removed later in game for sure

unmerged(16323) · Oct 2, 2004

Old Joe said:
good idea, but 5bb is too much and core on konigsberg should be removed later in game for sure

Why should they be removed?

If Poland claims Prussia, beats the Hohenzollern alliance (notice the Brandenburg's event which sets up an alliance), annexes Prussia without a core (giving much BB), choosing A in the event to pay more BB (7, but it should be debated) and becoms the BadBoy No1 in Europe just for 2 cores, then I don't think it would be fair to take them away.

Notice the "ClaimOnPrussia" flag in the Brandenburg "Help Albert" choice. Brandenburg doesn't need to own Prussia to become Kingdom of Prussia anymore. To let the Kingdom of Prussia event trigger, Brandenburg either needs the "ClaimOnPrussia" flag or Prussia itself.

I never thought that these evens would become so controversial

As far as I see, the main disagreement lies in the badboy points. Well, the'yre mostly for the human player, to think twice before claiming Prussia

Sikker · Oct 2, 2004

Good thing that we agree on lowereing the BB.

If the argument is that TO is losing to Poland then it makes even less sense that the provinces should be given up. If TO has parts of Poland and/or LIV they must be winning. Then they should not become vassals.
I agree that TO must become Prussia, and I can see your point that IF they were loosing they should give up provinces. Perhaps if TO is winning and doing well, the wishes of Albert would be to give his domains to Brandenburg immediately (vassals of Brandenburg). Certainly not to give all his lands to a defeated foe.

About punishing Poland, as I said there is plenty of punishment in the game already for annexing. If you feel there should be more I'd say that bad relations would be a lot better than BB. Perhaps a CB against Poland ... or an event-chain where Papal States would declare crusade on Poland (IF Papal States were really that upset). BB is a bad solution IMHO.

unmerged(16323) · Oct 2, 2004

Sikker said:
If the argument is that TO is losing to Poland then it makes even less sense that the provinces should be given up. If TO has parts of Poland and/or LIV they must be winning. Then they should not become vassals.
I agree that TO must become Prussia, and I can see your point that IF they were loosing they should give up provinces. Perhaps if TO is winning and doing well, the wishes of Albert would be to give his domains to Brandenburg immediately (vassals of Brandenburg). Certainly not to give all his lands to a defeated foe.

Now you don't get my point (mayby becasue of my bad english

).
The main reason for the spread of Lutheranism (AFAIR, can't remember where I read that) was the decline of the Teutonic Order. The merchants and burghers wanted to oppose the catholic order's rule. Just look at the 13 years war. It started because of the "Prussian Confederation" (in polish "Zwiazek Pruski") of cities. By then the TO was weak, it's decline started at Tannenberg.

Do you really think that if the TO was richer and internally stronger, the knights would allow some heretic to secularize their holdings? Even if he was the Grandmaster? I really don't think so.

If the player chooses to become Prussia it means that he wants to be a weak little Duchy with the possibility to become great some time.

I included the secedeprovince and independence commands to tidy up what was left of the TO. It's highly unlikely for them to ever have any serious effect. I mean how often do you see a 2 province TO diplo-annex a 3 province LO

unmerged(16323) · Oct 2, 2004

I've changed the PRU monarch file. Added Albrecht Hohenzollern, Albrecht Friedrich (without the regents), and Johann Sigismund. Renumbered the rest of Kingdom of Prussia rulers to fit the AGCEEP id range (it was in conflict with Brabant's monarchs)

The full file:

Code:

# Ducal Prussia
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 11926 }
	startdate = { # Real date: February 10, 1525
		day = 1
		month = january
		year = 1524
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 20
		month = march
		year = 1568
	}
	name = "Albrecht"
	DIP = 7
	ADM = 6
	MIL = 4
}

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 11927 }
	
	startdate = {
		day = 21
		month = march
		year = 1568
	}
	deathdate = { 
		day = 1
		month = january
		year = 1618
	}
	name = "Albrecht Friedrich"
	DIP = 4
	ADM = 4
	MIL = 2
	remark = "Ill"
}

# Brandenburgian Union Phase

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 11928 }
	
	startdate = {
		day = 2
		month = january
		year = 1618
	}
	deathdate = { 
		day = 22
		month = december
		year = 1619
	}
	name = "Johann Sigismund"
	DIP = 5
	ADM = 6
	MIL = 5
	remark = "Elector of Brandenburg"
}


historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 11929 }
	startdate = {
		day = 23
		month = december
		year = 1619
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 1
		month = december
		year = 1640
	}
	name = "Georg Wilhelm"
	DIP = 8
	ADM = 8
	MIL = 6
	remark = "Elector of Brandenburg"
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 11930 }
	startdate = {
		day = 1
		month = december
		year = 1640
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 9
 		month = may
		year = 1688
	}
	name = "Friedrich Wilhelm "
	DIP = 8
	ADM = 7
	MIL = 8
	remark = "Elector"
}

# Kingdom of Prussia

historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 11931 }
	startdate = {
		day = 9
		month = may
		year = 1688
		}
	deathdate = {
		day = 25
		month = february
		year = 1713
		}
	name = "Friedrich I"
	DIP = 7
	ADM = 9
	MIL = 7
	remark = "King of Prussia"
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 11932 }
	startdate = {
		day = 25
		month = february
		year = 1713
		}
	deathdate = {
		day = 31
		month = may
		year = 1740
		}
	name = "Friedrich Wilhelm I"
	DIP = 7
	ADM = 7
	MIL = 8
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 11933 }
	startdate = {
		day = 31
		month = may
		year = 1740
		}
	deathdate = {
		day = 17
		month = august
		year = 1786
		}
	name = "Friedrich II der Große"
	DIP = 9
	ADM = 9
	MIL = 9
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 11934 }
	startdate = {
		day = 17
		month = august
		year = 1786
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 16
		month = november
		year = 1797
	}
	name = "Friedrich Wilhelm II"
	DIP = 7
	ADM = 4
	MIL = 5
}
historicalmonarch = {
	id = { type = 6 id = 11935 }
	startdate = {
		day = 16
		month = november
		year = 1797
	}
	deathdate = {
		day = 7
		month = june
		year = 1840
	}
	name = "Friedrich Wilhelm III"
	DIP = 8
	ADM = 3
	MIL = 5
}

anyone disagrees with the stats? Shall I post it into the submission thread or the bugfix thread?

Sikker · Oct 2, 2004

OK I see your point. TO should only become Prussia because if being a knightly order is a lost cause. And choosing option A means that TO chooses the 'We are defeated option'. Then if this is the case, why do they suffer a -3 stab hit and has to pay 200 gold? If they are doing well enough to survive as a knightly order, that is a sign of stability - and where does that 200 gold go?
Also was Albert a catholic? Since TO is forced into catholisicm ... I know it would be heresy if the knights converted to protestantism - but some did. Who knows perhaps they could have converted and become a protestant order ... although that is almost a contradiction in terms I guess.

EDIT: The stats look fine to me.

unmerged(16323) · Oct 2, 2004

Sikker said:
OK I see your point. TO should only become Prussia because if being a knightly order is a lost cause. And choosing option A means that TO chooses the 'We are defeated option'. Then if this is the case, why do they suffer a -3 stab hit and has to pay 200 gold? If they are doing well enough to survive as a knightly order, that is a sign of stability - and where does that 200 gold go?

Teh 2nd choice means "We have to reform to still be a catholic Order"
Stability -3: The social cost of reforms
Treasury -200: The cost of reforms
religion - catholic: We return back to being a catholic order
The reforms are the domestic changes.

Although I think that the domestic changes should be a little less harsh, they are exactly the same as in vanilla's event.

I don't know but the idea of staying TO is quite nice

Mayby someone would script some events for an alternative-history chalange

Some "spanish model inquisition" or something? Mayby "let's crusade against the schizmatics in the east" events? Dunno.. I lack the imagination to do it

As for the badboy points. I followed Jesters Independence Events in which he uses BB points to simulate actions which would have been frowned upon by the major powers (like annexing provinces in HRE).
IMHO relations aren't too much. The AI would increase them regardless of what's stated in the events (even if they go down to -200), and the player wouldn't mind if some woudl hate him or not. By that time the human player is strong enought to withstand a major war. the BB points are to make a human think twice before going the alt.hist. path.

Sikker · Oct 2, 2004

OK fair enough (about the reforms). But if TO has to pay 200 for reforms ... then what are the results of the reforms? Any conversions? It seems odd that is costs that much just to become an extremely backwards country

... somehow something positive ought to come out of it too.

I still disagree about the BB, but if we (incl. Old Joe) are the only ones with an opinion on this BB thing, I guess a compromise is needed (though I really hope more will come to my aid and vote for removal of the BB

). As I said removing 5BB when it has taken about 16BB to get there is a bit silly. And getting 12 BB (5+7) on top of those 16 in order to keep it is simply crazy. Poland would go straight to BB wars if this happened.

unmerged(16323) · Oct 2, 2004

Sikker said:
OK fair enough (about the reforms). But if TO has to pay 200 for reforms ... then what are the results of the reforms? Any conversions? It seems odd that is costs that much just to become an extremely backwards country ... somehow something positive ought to come out of it too.

Feel free to propose something.

My goal was to make the Prussia chain more fun and allow Brandenburg to become Prussia even if they don't own the province. That's why I didn't care much about the choice B in the Teutonic Order becomes Prussia event and just copied it from the one that was already there. Seems like being lazy haven't payed off

I still disagree about the BB, but if we (incl. Old Joe) are the only ones with an opinion on this BB thing, I guess a compromise is needed (though I really hope more will come to my aid and vote for removal of the BB ). As I said removing 5BB when it has taken about 16BB to get there is a bit silly. And getting 12 BB (5+7) on top of those 16 in order to keep it is simply crazy. Poland would go straight to BB wars if this happened.

Alright I agree about increasing the removal of BB points from 5 to 16 (in both "The Lands of Teutonic Order" choice A and "Lands of Prussia" choice B).

However I'm still in favour of giving extra BB when Poland decides to keep the lands. a major war of Poland with the HRE could have been true if they decided to keep them. And isn't that something similar to a BB war?

Also I found an error in the revolt.txt. The Teutonic Order (LAT) is a revolter in Kruland and Livland. Thus the "Restoration of Teutonic Order" events didn't work. IMHO it should be changed not only because fo the events, but also because the TO was actually in Prussia not norht of it

Fix:

Code:

LAT = {
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
	expirydate = { day = 31 month = december year = 1530 }
	minimum = { 290 }
	extra = { 289 301 }
	capital = 290
	religion = catholic
	group = latin
	}

Do you agree to change the revolt.txt entry of the Teutonic Order?

Sikker · Oct 2, 2004

Well, I suggested a free conversion. I guess that's the only thing I can come up with right now.

A reduction of 16 BBs is perhaps a bit too much (man I'm hard to please :wacko: ). But it's better than 5 ... maybe 10-14 ... say 12?

And obviously my stand on reducing the extra BB stands. At least half it. Preferably 3 goes to 1. 5 goes to 2. 7 goes to 3.

The revolter is fine

Ducal Prussia

Captain

Field Marshal

Buzzkill Extraordinaire

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Captain

Captain

El Jeffe De La Verca Del Fuego

Captain

General

Captain

alter ego

Captain

General

Captain

Captain

General

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General

Captain

General