Drowning vs Dehydration - Axis attrition

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Tomnoddy

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Hi guys,

In SP I'm still struggling to find a strategy for the Axis that doesn't involve excess cheese.

That means no Dutch gambit.

Prioritising the Kriegsmarine over the Heer , performing Sealion immediately after the fall of France to defeat the Allied faction in 1940 works as well.

However, if you play a more historical path and prioritise the army, other members of your faction invariably start collapsing before you can even defeat USSR.

A lot of attention is focused on the attrition Italy suffers in the Sahara, which may explain why their division count drops and drops throughout the war until they start crumbling. But, I think there's an even bigger issue, that has nothing to do with low infra provinces.

As we all know, the AI loves to shuffle divisions. The problem is, when you have an African theatre, it will choose to do so across the Med. Against the combined might of the French and British navies, the Regia Marina gets wiped out within a few months.

I've tried going after Yugoslavia and Turkey before Poland, to allow a land route to Suez. I quickly took the canal and established a land link to the Italians in Libya. This reduced, but did not eliminate Italian naval redeployments through the water and most of the divisions they sent that way got sunk.

You can't close off the med until 1941 because Spain is reluctant to join the Axis, and even if you attack the Falangists all this does is prevent the Allies sending new ships. Because of the way Naval combat works - large fleet meeting small fleet means small fleet loses several or all ships, large fleet only gets minor damage to one or two vessels that is easily repaired - the Italian Navy will never recover.

Establishing Naval supremacy means taking all of North Africa, Greece and the Levant, Cyprus, Crete and Malta and putting your own battle group in there. Even then, you never quite get rid of the submarines predating on Axis merchantmen and need a decent ASW unit in each sea zone.

In that game, I conquered Iran, Iraq and the British Raj, establishing a land route to the Far Eastern axis. However, it turns out joining the war with Nationalist China was a mistake, because Italy then tried to send troops to this front. Naturally it thought going through the Red Sea, past Djibouti, Aden, Columbo, Singapore and Hong Kong was much quicker than overland across the rail links i built.

The only way i could stop the carnage was to focus all my efforts on taking out Nationalist China ASAP.

So in conclusion then, given the state of the AI, it seems you really need to build an ahistorically strong Navy to stop the other Axis nations getting slaughtered at sea. This results in a much weaker army, but with micro and human advantage, you should still be able to conquer Europe.

You could probably make a success of things as Italy and Germany. However as Japan, the Axis are inevitably defeated in Europe by 1941, despite my hard slog through China, India, the East Indies and Siberia.
 

Praetori

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As production, efficiency and resources works at the moment Italy is totally dependent on German resources. If Germany goes closed economy then Italy will starve to death as it can't get the needed materials elsewhere in large enough quantities. The AI seems oblivious to this and it's one of the reasons why Italy performs poorly. The same can be said of Germany post Barbarossa. Without sufficient influx of resources the AI German production quickly goes into negatives and divisions begin to starve in terms of equipment and then it's a pushover for the USSR.
 

mursolini

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You need to grab Malta on day 1 of war, then deploy your CAS to Mediterranean, especially after battle of France. After a month or so, go for Gibraltar(if you really respect Spanish neutrality, get marines) and close Suez. This should force any allied fleet to go for repairs outside of Mediterranean. Deploy Radar and a few modern DDs to kill subs.

That should take care of Mediterranean with pretty minimal diversion of resources. Then just take out Soviets and go further into middle east.

It is always good to have naval air or at least CAS naval striking on coasts where enemy navy can show up to send them back for repairs.
 

Meglok

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You need to grab Malta on day 1 of war, then deploy your CAS to Mediterranean, especially after battle of France. After a month or so, go for Gibraltar(if you really respect Spanish neutrality, get marines) and close Suez. This should force any allied fleet to go for repairs outside of Mediterranean. Deploy Radar and a few modern DDs to kill subs.

That should take care of Mediterranean with pretty minimal diversion of resources. Then just take out Soviets and go further into middle east.

It is always good to have naval air or at least CAS naval striking on coasts where enemy navy can show up to send them back for repairs.

Until PDS addresses the axis imbalance caused by the new resource production features, the African safari issue, and the Axis inability to discern that sailing unescorted convoys into sea zones with Allied naval superiority is a BAD idea ai Axis nations will continue to collapse like a wet paper sack.

Ai Italian naval production is usually shut down now by lack of oil and or steel, resulting in an even faster naval collapse. Until Suez is captured nothing prevents ai Italy or Germany from sailing troops into the Channel abbatoir trying to reach Italian East Africa, and even then the RN will likely be sitting in the Red Sea waiting.
 

Wizard12

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A simple fix would be to make it require naval superiority to transport troops during wartime. This might cause some annoying micro at points but it seems more realistic and would stop the Italian army suiciding itself into the allies and the odd "garrison order in the Netherlands suicides troops into the channel" issue.

Italy also should consider avoiding fighting naval battles until France falls - really Italy shouldn't join the war until the 40s - in order to preserve its fleet.

There also needs to be an operation Catapult event to delete most of the French fleet upon capitulation, it's historically wrong and oddly balanced to have Vichy and/or Free France with a large fleet left over after the fall of France.
 

mursolini

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Until PDS addresses the axis imbalance caused by the new resource production features, the African safari issue, and the Axis inability to discern that sailing unescorted convoys into sea zones with Allied naval superiority is a BAD idea ai Axis nations will continue to collapse like a wet paper sack.

Ai Italian naval production is usually shut down now by lack of oil and or steel, resulting in an even faster naval collapse. Until Suez is captured nothing prevents ai Italy or Germany from sailing troops into the Channel abbatoir trying to reach Italian East Africa, and even then the RN will likely be sitting in the Red Sea waiting.
Yes, but if you`re Germany, you can clean up a lot of naval routes. You also can be the source of Axis oil and Rubber, if you invest in synthetics and take European, middle-east and Russian oil. If you close economy as Germany, well, it is your own fault, usually you get far more factories from axis allies than you have to put to purchsing from your allies to cover resources shortages that you have due to putting 25% of your resources on the market.

Which was the point of my post, Axis tends to sail poorly, but player can make a huge difference by strategically denying Allies ports and forcing their fleets to be at dock without huge naval investment.
 

davej

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So in conclusion then, given the state of the AI, it seems you really need to build an ahistorically strong Navy to stop the other Axis nations getting slaughtered at sea. This results in a much weaker army, but with micro and human advantage, you should still be able to conquer Europe.

You want the real ahistorical secret? Don't invite anyone to your faction, do it solo.

You have a nice barrier from the iberian peninsula and the meditterraian that the allies can't penetrate. Now you can easily secure France, lowlands, and Denmark.
 

Tomnoddy

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Just tried building a 4 Carrier battlegroup and relocating it to the Med before the war starts.

The Italian , French , and British navies all get more or less wiped out within a month or two. I had a few close calls but managed not to loose any Carriers. They were stuck there till I could get Spain into Axis , which delayed Sealion a bit. Not much sign of Italy rebuilding its fleet but their Army is doing better , nearly 200 divisions, I gave them some LL and by 1942 they are threatening SA. Spain's modest fleet remained intact, at least until America joined the war, and Japan is doing good too. THey're usually moribund, I'm not sure what the difference is - maybe because i helped them conquer China with my volunteers, they have enough resources to run their dockyards? The RN having it's best SAGs in the Med probably helped.

Another thing that delayed Sealion was sticking to my previous Land strategy of Yugoslavia (annexed peacefully via NF) Turkey, Iraq, Iran, then the Raj. I still think it's a good idea to open a land route to Africa (my attack on Turkey is what started WWII) but Iraq and Iran weren't really needed, I was managing to make do with the oil I had. Had I done Sealion quicker, the Allied faction may have surrendered on Sealion and there would have been no need to go after the Raj.

I also took the national focuses to befriend Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Netherlands, Norway and Sweden. The Czechs eventually joined the Axis. The Dutch got DoW'ed by Japan and joined the Allies unexpectedly. I didn't have any forces in place to quickly crush them, and they soon reinforced and became a surprisingly tough nut to crack. Out of the blue, a Fascist uprising took place which enabled me to defeat the Netherlands, now their territory is controlled by a loyal fascist state so no partisans to worry about.

Against AI France , I've come to the conclusion going around the Maginot line is unnecessary. DOWing the Benelux deprives you of neutral states that can sell you large quantities of rubber and oil. Instead just support Italy's push through southern France, though TBH Italy will defeat France all by itself given time.
 

golruul

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For my experience, In all my games as Germany (Veteran/historical/max sliders for all except me), Italy always did decently without me contributing any ships other than subs to the Mediterranean. I always wait until France is gone before calling them into the war and always have 100-200 fighters on air superiority (+ optional 100 heavy fighters on intercept if I feel like playing whack-a-mole) over each Mediterranean sea zone. I run limited exports and Italy always imports a bunch of stuff from me.

They've always survived and usually dominated Africa.

I don't call them or anyone else into war with USSR if possible.

I also don't "cheese" and actually wait until 1940 to go to war so I can politically annex Yugoslavia and puppet Greece.

EDIT: Whoops, wrong forum. I'm playing BlackICE mod and thought this was a a topic on that mod. Ignore the post
 
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Praetori

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Yes, but if you`re Germany, you can clean up a lot of naval routes. You also can be the source of Axis oil and Rubber, if you invest in synthetics and take European, middle-east and Russian oil. If you close economy as Germany, well, it is your own fault, usually you get far more factories from axis allies than you have to put to purchsing from your allies to cover resources shortages that you have due to putting 25% of your resources on the market.

Which was the point of my post, Axis tends to sail poorly, but player can make a huge difference by strategically denying Allies ports and forcing their fleets to be at dock without huge naval investment.

Yes, not that i play a lot of SP (MP is the way to go tbh) but unless you have a human Germany it all goes sideways quite quickly because Germany more often than not goes down into Closed Economy and the other Axis forces starve, fail and then Germany starts sending more troops to those areas and fail as well.
There's been some improvements as in AI Germany not suiciding into France, Poland and Scandinavia at the same and it's actually managing quite well up to the invasion of USSR but after that it goes sideways for both the Axis satellites as well as Germany.