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Ebusitanus

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Re: Drake

Originally posted by Pwyll
1572- captured nombre de dios
destroyed portobelo
returned with much spanish gold and silver
1573-76 assisted in quelling Irish rebellion
1577-sailed round south american tip, plundered Valparasio and other spanish ports caturing a few ship on the way.
1580-arrives back in England by way of circum-navigating the globe
I think he was second to do this. Ship full of silks and spanish plunder.
1581-elected mayor of Plymouth.
1584-85 served as a member of parliment.
1585-sailed back to west indies, raided many spanish colonies including Saint Augustine in Florida, picked up unsuccessful colonists at roanoke and and may have been first to introduce tobacco to England.
1587-Destroyed most of Spanish Fleet anchored at Cadiz.
1588-Is now a Vice-Admiral at time of the Armada.
1589-Unsuccessful in attempt to destroy remaining Spanish fleet.
Returns to parliment.
1595-heads west again to attack Spanish colonies...dies at sea.

Drake was a lot more than a meer Pirate.


Way too much generosity has been given to this criminal individual. So lets set a bit the record straight using Spanish documents instead of the acostumed English.

"1572- captured nombre de dios destroyed portobelo returned with much spanish gold and silver"

Not much is known about his first independent trip to the Indies after his colosal disater (One of the lost ships was a Royal Navy Galeon which had supposedly nothing to do in such a piratical enterprise) with Hawkins at Veracruz, where Drake just took off with one of the Pirate fleet's ship, the Judith, leaving poor Hawkins by himself with two badly damaged ships (One of which sunk later on its way home). He took off keeping the expedition's spoils stored on the Judith for himself (You can inmagine how pissed Hawkins was for that). Anyways...so, not much is known from the first indpendent expedition. On his second one by 1572 he attacked Nombre de Dios but without any success, same thing with Cruces. After that he unloaded near the Isthums and, together with some french pirates he met and some 200 renegade spanish black slaves, managed to ambush and assault a convoy of 80 mules loaded with silver. The silver was divided among the robbers and on their way back some stragglers got captured by the Spaniards. With motive of this action, more propper of vulgar roadside robbers, Drake began making outlandish claims back home about having seen the Pacific from the top of a tree and having plundered Nombre de Dios and even Veracruz (this last one, it seems came from a small indian village on the mule track under the name Venta Cruz the pirates passed).

"1577-sailed round south american tip, plundered Valparasio and other spanish ports caturing a few ship on the way.
1580-arrives back in England by way of circum-navigating the globe
I think he was second to do this. Ship full of silks and spanish plunder."


Drake plans another forray with aims to the Pacific Ocean. Another financial society is set together with the Queen adding 1000 crowns of her own. 6 ships.
They capture a portuguese ship around Cabo Verde loaded with wine, renam it "Mary" and force the portuguese pilot to work for them. They have to dismantel three ships before the Strait of Magallanhes and a fourth one takes off back to England, angry about Drake hanging one of the Captains for mutiny. Crossing the strait, two more ships sink and only the Pelikan (renamed Golden Hind to raise morale in prosepect for the comming plunder) remains. The whole Pacific coast is completely defenseless and so they manage to plunder Valparaiso, being refused with the death of one pirate by the now warned population at La Serena and Copiapo. He managed to attack Callao, Santa Trujillo and Payta burning specially the churches. A little later he captures Nuestra Senora de Juan Anton, ship with 400.000 pesos. He also manages to capture a small ship who has two pilots aboard from the famous Nao of Acapulco, which gives him the idea to cross the Pacific instead of going back South where everybody was looking for him. He reaches Mexico where he plunders Huatrilvo, not attacking Acapulco because he belives her to be fortified. He keep north till California where he readies himself to cross the Pacific, which he does getting home after 3 years with much plunder. Keep in m ind that Spain is not at war with England and uselessly the Spanish embassador protests in front of the Queen with a complete list of Drake's misdoings to which the Queen went to the dock and knighted Drake in reward.

1585-sailed back to west indies, raided many spanish colonies including Saint Augustine in Florida, picked up unsuccessful colonists at roanoke and and may have been first to introduce tobacco to England.

The now "Sir" Francis Drake, planned his new campaign with two Royal Navy Galeons and more ships with a total of 2500 pirates aboard. Some fightings to no result in Galicia/Spain with some cows being stolen. He sails down to Canary Islands where he tries to land on several islands being thrown back every time, most notoriously in Santa Cruz de la Palma were he looses some men while trying to land. From there he crosses the Atlantic and manages to plunder Santo Domingo, burning the city down almost completely since the dwellers couldn't pay his demanded ransom of 400.000 ducats. He leaves with 25.000 instead for Cartagena de Indias where after some serious fighting he takes the city (which had previously hidden all valuables) and asks again for 400.000 ransom. They settle the deal for 107.000 after some destruction. He sails to Cuba where troops where already waiting for him (to the point that the nervous Spanish capture two diferent French pirate convoys who had the bad fortune to be there at the worst time with the result of everybody hanged except a little boy). Drake decides against trying anything and just keeps proving the Cuban coast where the inhabitants kill as many pirates who decide to land to get water. He then sails to St. Augustine where there is nothing to loot but he nevertheless burns the city down. On his way back he picks the colonists in Roanoke up and reaches home with less winnings than the last time and more people to share it.
The Spanish Ambassador wrote that he arrived with 18 damaged ships and 1000 pirates less, mostly dead due to sickness. He brought leather and sugar but only 200.000 ducats which created riots among the tripuation who though itself cheated.

1587-Destroyed most of Spanish Fleet anchored at Cadiz.

One wonders if after all such provocations, Spain had no right to try to attack England in return for so many agravations. From the same henious prosecution of catholics in England (which had nothing to envy to Spain's hunting down of Luterans) to the shamesly thivery of the Spanish gold destined for the fighting troops in Flandes in 1568 when the spanish money convoy had to stop in England due to some bad weather, to next year's opening of English ports to the begining of the Dutch navy, to the outright sending of an English expeditionary force under Robert Dudley to fight alongside the Dutch rebels, which under any circumstance and any time would have been enough of a "casus belli". Not to mention the shamless preparation in England of pirate ventures, as if business it would be, against Spanish ports and shipping with the effective aid in money and military ships provided by the Queen herself. In 1587, still officialy in peace, a fleet under Drake attacked by surprise like a Perl Harbor, Cadiz, burning some and capturing vessels of a totally surprised Spanish goverment.
After the disaster with the Great Armada in 1588, Drake attacked again the Galician and Portuguese coasts, not making much headway, being thrown back at La Coruna and Lisbon with the loss of a third of his force of 120 ships and 8000 men in the process

1595-heads west again to attack Spanish colonies...dies at sea.

The biggest expedition was organized in 1595 by England's greatest captains; Hawkins and Drake who disliked each other since the Judith incident so many years ago. They made peace together as they showed the Queen their plan of taking Panama and creating there an English colony plus the ransacking of all principal Spanish ports in the Caribean. Hawkins was also eager to avenge his son who was rotting away in a prison cell in Lima afer his last unsuccesul attack there.
A total of 28 ships and 4500 men for this expedition. This expedition got delayed by the freak attack by some entrepeurial Spanish garrison of the Breton city of Blavet who decided to attack English coast line with much success and plunder, burning down three towns in the process. After making sure there was no full blown invasion they began their trip.
First stop the Canary Islands, where after much boasting from the marines commander Baskerville of taking the island of Las Palmas in 4 hours, they left for the Indies after loosing alomst a hunderd men with no gain whatsoever.
In Puerto Rico they hope to catch a damaged Spanish Galeon with 2 million pesos for Spain. The already alerted spaniards offer such a resistance to several landing attempts that Drake gives up after loosing more than 400 pirates, having Hawkins already died before in their staging area around Guadalupe.
On his way to Panama, he stops at Rio del Hacha where the population without fortifications has already left with all valuables. Drake asks for ransom but gets zippo and leaves after burning some dwelings. Same thing at Santa Marta where Drake leaves afer burning a Hacienda. Drake reaches the Isthmus and finds a deserted Nombre de Dios. Shortly after he marches inland towards Panama in two columns, one by land under Baskerville and one with rowboats under himself. The land expedition assaults repeated times a small fort which manages to beat all attacks back with heavy loss in live for the pirates. A Spanish relief column of about 50 man makes noise with drums and flutes like they are many more. The pirates break and in their rout get attacked by some ferocious blacks who kill everybody they get their hands on. Both columns retreat with the loss of about 500 pirates. On their way back and trying to get some water 30 more pirates get lynched by the local population. Same thing with some more who try to get some foodstuff. On their way to Portobello Drake dies of sickness and is buried in a small island that has his name therafter.
Baskerville takes over only to encounter in Cuba a Spanish relief fleet sent to hunt them down. The pirates loose 300 more in prisoners who are sent to work at the fortifications at Habana while the rest of the fleet flees across the Ocean arriving in Plymouth only 8 of the original 28 vessels.
 

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Quite informative.

But the discussion was not whether Drake was right or wrong or a pirate or privateer or whatever but that he should be included in the game. The fact that he did so much (regardless of whether you like him or not or whether he was always successful) would indicate to me that he should be included.:)
 

unmerged(6159)

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I like the analogy to Pearl Harbour, which is pretty apt. Cadiz was a pre-emptive strike which did delay the attack on England that Spain was preparing.

And Drake was certainly not the second to cross the Pacific, as there were annual convoys from Acupulco to the Phillipines at the time.

But even with your spin on it he did pretty well. He wasn't in charge at Vera Cruz, Hawkins made the big mistakes there. You might be able to convince me that he doesn't deserve 5-5-6, but several of the attacks you described required a fair amount of skill. Cartagena and Cadiz just for starters. He ought to be a leader, and he ought to be a pretty good one.
 

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Originally posted by Isaac Brock
And Drake was certainly not the second to cross the Pacific, as there were annual convoys from Acupulco to the Phillipines at the time.

But he did circumnavigate the globe at least, as the second expedition.
 

Owl

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Even if you accept every word of the Spanish version of events - which would be a bit like getting the Argentines to give an impartial view of Mrs Thatcher - you would still have to admit that Drake was a very important figure who got around a fair bit, had some notable skills and successes and did in fact lead parts of the English fleet.
Clearly he must be included in the game.
 

Ebusitanus

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Originally posted by Owl
Even if you accept every word of the Spanish version of events - which would be a bit like getting the Argentines to give an impartial view of Mrs Thatcher - you would still have to admit that Drake was a very important figure who got around a fair bit, had some notable skills and successes and did in fact lead parts of the English fleet.
Clearly he must be included in the game.

Well, thats a good one..lol...This has like nothing to do with the Falklands/Malvinas. This is all recorded in the Archivo de Indias, a pretty objective set of documents concerning the administration of the Indies. Rather a oficial govermental set of information then some propaganda yellow press. There is no need whasover for the spanish documentarist to lie regarding what ships their lost and when and how many people died in such and such pirate attack. I hope you will agree that the police doesn't make up their own reports about how criminals robbed a bank. This arcihive is being used worlwide as a well reknown source of reilable info, begining with the treasure hunters. Now, who has more interest in making up stories, the spanish archivists or some self centered thieves who try to justify/glorify their exploits in front of their own accionists/populance? Give me any point you put in doubt here and I shall answer it asap. You still have the notion I believe of the romantic Errol Flyn type of pirate duelling the evil Spaniard on some desert caribean beach under the light of the moon. Thieves are thieves, now and back then.
Amazing...
 

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Originally posted by BiB
Doomie is on the case now. Another success for DAFT! Well, another, just the one but it just happens to be our main objective! And there was much rejoicing! :D

Hurrah! Three cheers for DAFT! :D
 

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Originally posted by Ebusitanus


Well, thats a good one..lol...This has like nothing to do with the Falklands/Malvinas. This is all recorded in the Archivo de Indias, a pretty objective set of documents concerning the administration of the Indies. Rather a oficial govermental set of information then some propaganda yellow press. There is no need whasover for the spanish documentarist to lie regarding what ships their lost and when and how many people died in such and such pirate attack. I hope you will agree that the police doesn't make up their own reports about how criminals robbed a bank. This arcihive is being used worlwide as a well reknown source of reilable info, begining with the treasure hunters. Now, who has more interest in making up stories, the spanish archivists or some self centered thieves who try to justify/glorify their exploits in front of their own accionists/populance? Give me any point you put in doubt here and I shall answer it asap. You still have the notion I believe of the romantic Errol Flyn type of pirate duelling the evil Spaniard on some desert caribean beach under the light of the moon. Thieves are thieves, now and back then.
Amazing...

Well, of course the Spanish have a motivation to lie. They would want to do anything to portray Drake as a thieving murderous criminal, and one that failed as often as he succeeded. Now, I'm not saying that Drake wasn't, but one should no more rely on the Spanish view of him as being objective as one would rely on the English view of him. Yes, Drake was a thief and a pirate, but he was also an explorer and an admiral. He won several important victories, of which Cadiz was one of the most important. England was the underdog in the late 1500s, and had to resort to unconventional warfare to defeat Spain, its mortal enemy and rival. Look at the Spanish Armada: the English won by avoiding a general fleet action. History does tend to be written by the victor, and the English were, in the long term, the victors.

Nevertheless, whatever one may think of Drake's actions and the morality of them, he was important and effective, and as such deserves to be in the game, to allow the English player to repeat some of Drake's successes in the Spanish Main!
 

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Originally posted by Ebusitanus


Well, thats a good one..lol...This has like nothing to do with the Falklands/Malvinas. This is all recorded in the Archivo de Indias, a pretty objective set of documents concerning the administration of the Indies. Rather a oficial govermental set of information then some propaganda yellow press. There is no need whasover for the spanish documentarist to lie regarding what ships their lost and when and how many people died in such and such pirate attack. I hope you will agree that the police doesn't make up their own reports about how criminals robbed a bank. This arcihive is being used worlwide as a well reknown source of reilable info, begining with the treasure hunters. Now, who has more interest in making up stories, the spanish archivists or some self centered thieves who try to justify/glorify their exploits in front of their own accionists/populance? Give me any point you put in doubt here and I shall answer it asap. You still have the notion I believe of the romantic Errol Flyn type of pirate duelling the evil Spaniard on some desert caribean beach under the light of the moon. Thieves are thieves, now and back then.
Amazing...

Let me assure you that I never thought Drake was like Errol Flynn (bloody Yank! :D ), and my reference to Mrs Thatcher was intended to be humorous.

As for the archivists - I don't think you're doing them any favours by comparing them to the police, who certainly DO have a vested interest in telling the story their way and who in many countries have been found to have falsified or suppressed evidence...

Let's say that I have no information to suggest that the archivists' record of the facts and dates was false - but that doesn't mean that they knew the man or understood his motives. Nor does it mean that everything Drake claimed could be discounted as boasting. (They too were writing with a particular audience in mind...)

As for thievery, Drake's main objective was to damage the enemy -though I dare say personal gain and fame were also motives.

And as for whether war had been declared - the Spanish were believed at the time, not without cause, to be plotting the overthrow of Elizabeth and/or an invasion of England. The Armada wasn't built overnight. Or is that all Hollywood propaganda too?
 

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Originally posted by Owl

As for thievery, Drake's main objective was to damage the enemy -though I dare say personal gain and fame were also motives.

I suspect it's rather the other way around. It's rather like saying that Da Gama went to India to try to break the Turks monopoly, or Magellan circumnaviagted the world to break the Portugese monopoly. They mostly did it for the cash. The English tried to trade in Spanish America and were denied - was Drake trying to break the monopoly of the Casa de Las Indias? Absolutely, but I suspect he was mostly in it for the money.
 

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Originally posted by BiB
Doomie is on the case now. Another success for DAFT! Well, another, just the one but it just happens to be our main objective! And there was much rejoicing! :D

BiB has led us to the promise land - huzzah!!:D
 

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the Spanish were believed at the time, not without cause, to be plotting the overthrow of Elizabeth and/or an invasion of England. The Armada wasn't built overnight. Or is that all Hollywood propaganda too?

I think you should read this again:

One wonders if after all such provocations, Spain had no right to try to attack England in return for so many agravations. From the same henious prosecution of catholics in England (which had nothing to envy to Spain's hunting down of Luterans) to the shamesly thivery of the Spanish gold destined for the fighting troops in Flandes in 1568 when the spanish money convoy had to stop in England due to some bad weather, to next year's opening of English ports to the begining of the Dutch navy, to the outright sending of an English expeditionary force under Robert Dudley to fight alongside the Dutch rebels, which under any circumstance and any time would have been enough of a "casus belli". Not to mention the shamless preparation in England of pirate ventures, as if business it would be, against Spanish ports and shipping with the effective aid in money and military ships provided by the Queen herself.

The Armada was built because all this provocations.

Do you think Spain had any real interest in conquering the British Isles or having England as its mortal enemy and rival?
 

BiB

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From the latest betapatch :

historicalleader = {
category = explorer
id = { type = 6 id = 09346 }
name = "Francis Drake"
startdate = {
year = 1577
}
deathdate = {
year = 1596
month = january
day = 28
}
rank = 1
movement = 6
fire = 5
shock = 4
siege = 0
remark = "Could also be an admiral (and a privateer, of course.)"
}
 

Johnny Canuck

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Originally posted by Gorion


I think you should read this again:



The Armada was built because all this provocations.

Do you think Spain had any real interest in conquering the British Isles or having England as its mortal enemy and rival?

Just as it would be wrong to view England as righteous and compeltely justified opponents of an evil and tyrannical Spain, it is equally wrong to believe that Spain only responded to vile English provocations and was the victim of English aggression. The reality, as always, was in between. Spain did have an interest in conquering the British Isles, that was the whole point of the Armada of 1588. Defeat England, and at once you (a) secure the downfall of a colonial and naval rival; and (b) deal a possibly fatal blow to the Dutch insurrection. As for having England as Spain's "mortal enemy and rival," that was all but predestined from 1558 onwards. Once Philip II realized that he could not have England as a Catholic ally (as was the point of his marriage to Mary I), England naturally became a rival. England was Protestant, which made them the enemy regardless of whatever else England did. Spain funded Elizabeth's rivals in England, such as the efforts of Don Bernardino de Mendoza, Spanish ambassador in London, during the early 1580s. This meddling was the reason for the execution of Mary Queen of Scots.

We could quibble over the historical details forever, but the reality is that Spain was the dominant power, and England the rising challenger. Neither could ensure its ultimate aims, in Europe and overseas, without the defeat of the other. England, as the underdog, resorted to unconventional warfare to aid its efforts against Spain, like almost every other underdog in history (like the Americans in 1776, the Boers in 1899, the Irish in 1916, etc.). Neither had an inherently morally superior position; it was a case of great power rivalry. Yes, I suppose if England had been content to remain in their island and abandon any ambitions to be a great power, as well as abandon all Protestant and Dutch allies, there would have been no conflict. Such a view is unrealistic. England was growing in power, and for reasons of commerce, empire, and dynastic security, Spain had to be crushed. England did precisely that. Though it wasn't pretty, war rarely is.
 

Owl

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Originally posted by Gorion


I think you should read this again:



The Armada was built because all this provocations.

Do you think Spain had any real interest in conquering the British Isles or having England as its mortal enemy and rival?

Er... yes, I couldn't prove it before the European Court of Justice, but it seems to me that Spain meant to attack England and was preparing to do just that.
But that wasn't my point - I very carefully said that Spain was believed AT THE TIME to be intending to attack, and that the belief was not entirely without foundation.
Spain feared England, rightly; England feared Spain - again rightly. They were not yet openly at war, to use a phrase from Tolkien, but as my learned friend Mr Canuck has observed the conflict was already inevitable.
 

unmerged(598)

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Could the Wellington bashers please point me to a battle he lost?

As well as defeating the Marshals who defeated other European powers, he did manage to not only defeat, but completely wipe out the Emperor's army, despite being outnumbered for most of the day.

His Spanish campaigns are remarkable, outnumbered in almost every battle he completely dispelled the notion of French superiority, at a time when their armies swept everything else before them.

Wellington should be a 6-6-6-0, as his siege capabilities were not exceptional, he rushed the sieges of Badajoz and Ciudad Roderigo, and had a distinct distaste for night attacks.

If one only looked at his Indian campaigns he would go down as a great general, and for those of you who think he could only defend; at Assaye, against an organized, European-style army with a cannon advantage, he attacked and destroyed the enemy despite being outnumbered 8:1.

Wellington is more than Waterloo, and an even passing knowledge of his achievements would avoid one falling into the same trap as Napoleon and dismissing the Sepoy General as average.