Dr. Third Rome and how it killed the good idea

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Mortheim

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Mostly, this post is a rant - you can go to tl:dr part and see the point.

It all started not that long ago - 9 years ago. I was young, full of hopes and big fan of strategies. At this time my friend showed me Europa Universalis 3 and, oh boi, i was overwhelmed. It was completely new game for me and, well, it was really hard. Then i heard about Victoria 2. OH BOI! I think it is still the title i love the most - even with all its flaws and GLOBAL MARKET. Then Crusader Kings 2 came out and i understood - Paradox is the game studio i was dreaming about.
Or so i thought.

I never mind CK2 dlcs, cause i wasn't buying that many games. Occasionally i found something interesting and play it, but, often, it was baught during Steam sales or cause i loved the concept. Then EU4 came around and i felt "Boi, how GREAT this game will be with DLCs". Time proved me both right and wrong. You see, even during that time some of my friends, to whom i advertised CK2, were saying "How much should i pay? So, for this money i won't get full experience?", but changing their mind about it was pretty easy by just talking about sheer number of possibilities without DLCs (and that they could play with me or another friend of mine who also owned most of dlcs). And, well, i felt that EU4 will be close to that. So, started it all good and i really liked how the game developed and, well, paying more money wasn't the problem either - felt like good ol' mmorpg subscription days. I, often, felt bad about some features which were behind paywall, cause they felt like they should be part of base experience, but who am i to judge?

It was going pretty well for me until i noticed, that a lot of people starting to talk negatively about DLC policy and, after some time, i also joined that camp cause, hell, they have a point. DLC were really getting out of hand. Changing them wasn't good decision because it will take what people paid for, but, in the end, will be weaker than what will come later (example - Merchant Republic factions and Estates), or closing aspect of patch behind DLC paywall (like it happened with insitutions and development), or strange static modifiers that will appear even if country who should get it disappears (yeah, ages mechanic is how ideas should be, but this is imho), or now when we came to nearly pay2win DLC type (yap, Third Rome). And, well, with new type of DLC and sneaky price increase, i feel like PDX is going bad way. Yap, they said that they are sorry, but price increase just before sales? Meh, who would believe that it was coincidence.

This new type of dlcs, called "Immersion pack", should have enhanced experience while playing specific country. I was blinded that it was made about Russia and Muscovy - at last we will see how peasants became serfs, how economy would stagnate, how balance of power will be maintained within the realm. Choosing between orthodox church or going heretical cause it will benefit state. But, welp, what we got is duchy rank for ~80 years, full dip slots at start, new system that helps you to summon people from air (TAKE THAT MERCENARY CLONING FACILITIES) and, well, which doesn't offer nor different gameplay, neither good experience. You want to play diplomacy? HAHAHAHA NO WAY NO SLOTS SOISOISOISOISOI! Oh, you get PU with another russian principality? GET PUNISHED! Ah, you don't have manpower and cash? SUMMON ARMY FROM ANOTHER DIMENSION! You want to expand and get better regions? HAH NOOB DUCHY FOR SEVENTY YEARS WITHOUT FREE ESTATES SOISOISOISOISOI. And i could go on, and on, and on, and on...

The whole thing isn't immersive. Maybe i would be banned for it, but is it immersive to use another type of some strange magical energy (aka mana) to summon spirits, deal with rebels and lower autonomy? I expected something like deeper estate system (trying to balance between nobles and clergy OR rely on common men and develop cities while getting some penalties), or patriarch/metropolit to affect state of affairs in country, or working with foreigners and trying to deal with clergy who hates them for heretical believes. To feel what happened to state, to get IMMERSION. Not just periodically click button to get free army. Event system tries to do it, but, often, takes it away, cause choice is obvious - quality is always better, you need monarch power etc. Another "immersive" thing is not the one that i totally agree with, but Kakatua (the guy whom i respect) thinks is strange that your troops unlearn how to fight when you create Russia and how your bearocracy (pun intended) becomes less efficient (you lose 10% shock, 0.25 AT and 10% tax). Yes, Russian ideas give you A LOT of bonuses which are, frankly, useless until, at least, 16th tech. BUT the game FORCES you - if you won't become Russia, you will have less diplomats, less states and will be capped as duchy just...because "immersion". Immersion block you from different approach, immersion makes you bureaucracy and army less efficient, immersion gives you ability to push buttons (YAY).

Another point is - Immersion Pack rises power level of country it is focused on and, frankly speaking, PDX isn't known for balance and/or historical accuracy (depends on country). So, buffing something weak is good , but imagine, just for a second, Ottoman-focused or France-focused immersion pack. And, well, i would be honest that Muscovy even with immersion pack is still weaker than Ottos.
And, heck, even reviews are MOSTLY NEGATIVE. It could be something good, but selling just buffs is bad practice.



TL;DR: There is no immersion in immersion pack - just buffs for which you pay. Considering sneaky price increase before sales it feels like they are looking for some new ways of milking us. It is bad when bastion of grand strategy fans becomes "efficient company".


Soon (i hope) i will write about Russian events and ideas and other stuff from Third Rome with information about what is missing, what is not necessary and how it could be better.
 
Last edited:

Me_

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While most of this wall of text is little more than a rant, I do agree that this "immersion" pack does not feel immersive at all. It's just a set of buttons that load over time. No real involvement from the player being necessary. One press of one of the buttons and then wait until your bar recharges or frontier colony finishes, then press again.
 

Mortheim

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While most of this wall of text is little more than a rant, I do agree that this "immersion" pack does not feel immersive at all. It's just a set of buttons that load over time. No real involvement from the player being necessary. One press of one of the buttons and then wait until your bar recharges or frontier colony finishes, then press again.

Should clarify that in my post, i think.

Yeah. This is not how immersion works and how does design should be approached. You should FEEL Muscovy and Russia, face rulers problems and find solution to them, not just gather %mana_type_name% -> press button.
 

Me_

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Drachenfels

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Ever heard about constructive critic? I would be nice if you could propose something better. I personally didn't buy 3rd Rome as yet, but I plan to, probably next time I am going to play Muscovy.

Rants about people materialising from thin air are not helpful as well. Because local autonomy of 75% in some provinces means that this thin air might be that 75% of population that normally does not count. You see? Going 'realistic' with games is not very sound idea.

PS
On that note of "thin air" units, Polish king did that. He ordered every 20 villages to deploy one fully armed infantryman. It was a way to get standing army of 10k (if memory serves) bypassing laws that forbid king of Poland to tax properties belonging to noblemen (high local autonomy?)
 

Me_

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Ever heard about constructive critic? I would be nice if you could propose something better. I personally didn't buy 3rd Rome as yet, but I plan to, probably next time I am going to play Muscovy.

Rants about people materialising from thin air are not helpful as well. Because local autonomy of 75% in some provinces means that this thin air might be that 75% of population that normally does not count. You see? Going 'realistic' with games is not very sound idea.

PS
On that note of "thin air" units, Polish king did that. He ordered every 20 villages to deploy one fully armed infantryman. It was a way to get standing army of 10k (if memory serves) bypassing laws that forbid king of Poland to tax properties belonging to noblemen (high local autonomy?)
The famous Piechota Wybraniecka. Never really numbered more than 2000-3000. Was also of almost no value as the equipment was to be paid by the peasants. Only used in about 3 real battles.
 

Mortheim

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Ever heard about constructive critic? I would be nice if you could propose something better. I personally didn't buy 3rd Rome as yet, but I plan to, probably next time I am going to play Muscovy.

Rants about people materialising from thin air are not helpful as well. Because local autonomy of 75% in some provinces means that this thin air might be that 75% of population that normally does not count. You see? Going 'realistic' with games is not very sound idea.


I recommend you to read my thread that, maybe, created the idea of this abomination. It is in my signature ;)


Okay.
First, streltsy is just unit that was gathered from "best of the best" - upgrading your units would make more sense or, at least, taking manpower and/or cash to smaller degree than training them from scratch.
Second, "realistic" is not the best idea with the GSG, i wholeheartedly agree. But as i said earlier, Streltsy were gathered from Pishalniki (militia with guns, basically) and only the best were taken. Later you should have really good skills to join and there was a lot of training (it is represented by 10% fire damage and one event). There should be some cost to them.
They could take percent from your other regiments. They could take part of manpower and cash smaller than regiment. They could have some "training" time. They cost nothing, they give you free manpower (it is full regiments), they have small bonus, they costed no dosh. Maybe there number could depend on your fortresses or require some buildings.



The famous Piechota Wybraniecka. Never really numbered more than 2000-3000.

We better leave other examples for later. There is a lot of strange ideas and what they give. At least they went somewhat right direction with new ideas for Muscovy/Russia.
 

Me_

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We better leave other examples for later. There is a lot of strange ideas and what they give. At least they went somewhat right direction with new ideas for Muscovy/Russia.
I refer specifically to the concept that an army could be recruited "from thin air". It will always be an army of laughable quality or terrible quantity.
 

Mortheim

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I refer specifically to the concept that an army could be recruited "from thin air". It will always be an army of laughable quality or terrible quantity.

Ah, sorry, thought you related to historically wrong bonus of that Polish idea.
 

Tacticus101

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Firstly, the idea of a paywall has been discussed ad nauseam. There is nothing in Eu4 that has been taken away from the base game, every single feature that you have to pay for is one ADDED to the game well after its release, nothing is taken away. There are issues with overlapping mechanics, like Development and buildings or religions, but that has nothing to do with a paywall of any sort.

Secondly, the concept of pay to win is irrelevant to a single player, non-competitive game. Every single patch has buffed certain nations and nerfed others; some nations have oscillated between borderline unplayable and god tier over the course of the games development. A DLC that buffs several nations, including Muscovy, is neither unusual nor a cause for concern. Hungary was massively buffed in a patch, as were the Hordes, Manchu, Colonial powers, Denmark, Austria, Sweden and really everyone at different points, usually for free). The biggest effect is that Muscovy will do slightly better under AI control and be a more viable nation in multiplayer, that's it. Pay to win is a term limited to games like Archage and APB, or accusations against other games like League of Legends, where paying money can give you a tangible advantage vs other players, you can literally pay your way to victory.

Thirdly, the pricing change was rolled back ages ago, along with a very open explanation and apology from Paradox. They even offered compensation for those effected. The issue really doesn't need to be brought up any more except in Paradox's favour.


This new type of dlcs, called "Immersion pack", should have enhanced experience while playing specific country. I was blinded that it was made about Russia and Muscovy - at last we will see how peasants became serfs, how economy would stagnate, how balance of power will be maintained within the realm. Choosing between orthodox church or going heretical cause it will benefit state.

You cant expect an entire CK2 level game for the price of £7. This is Eu4, it was always going to involve Eu4 mechanics and add things in the same way as Eu4 has done previously. Your expectations were just wildly off.

Also, immersion packs were something asked for by the community, Paradox didn't suddenly pluck the idea out of the blue; they are testing to see if it is a viable concept.
 

Mortheim

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There is not a lot of examples, but putting institutions as free feature and tying it to paid feature is not paywall?



Well, SP is easy. MP is more interesting. But by buying this expansion you have much easier time in SP and some good buffs for MP.
Truly, i could be exaggerating this. But it made my experience as Muscovy/Russia worse.



Yay, they do something stealthy, then got angry comeback. Obviously, points to them for apologizing, but it is still strange.
And staying honest is good for any company, so its TA will be pleased.


You cant expect an entire CK2 level game for the price of £7.

Firstly, 10£, irrc. Secondly, it could be slider with events. Or triangle. Or something like that. But, for 10£ (price of the half of big expansions) you get some events, new government type and streltsy. Ah, and metropolitans and iconography, but this is feature for all orthodox nations iirc.
You are paying for experience, so it will differ, so it will be interesting, different from other experiences. Mandate of Haven, for me, is good example - playing in Asia feels different. Maybe creating something like that but with GH for some time would be more immersive. LIke, at start there is Throne of Khan icon in low right corner near HRE. It is, currently, Great Horde, but it can be taken through war or other mean by nearby horde. Lithuania and Russian principalities are tributaries at start to it. So, if all hordes are conquered this icon disappeares and who controls most of those territories gets some buff. You can improve relation to get some bonuses (legitimacy, army, etc) or claims on territories.

And i have some questions to ask: have you bought it? How immersive it was? Have you felt that gameplay differs? Didn't you feel restricted by starting conditions?


content packs were something asked for by the community

You mean "immersion" packs?
 

hashinshin

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The thing I don't like about Third Rome is it DOES do balance for Russia and make it the tier 1 power it deserves to be... if you have the DLC. You can literally just disable it and keep ironman to make the game easier like ???
 

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The thing I don't like about Third Rome is it DOES do balance for Russia and make it the tier 1 power it deserves to be... if you have the DLC. You can literally just disable it and keep ironman to make the game easier like ???

Features of DLC include Orthodox mechanics. And i, while having some questions, love them.
 

YuriiH

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nothing is taken away.
Buying DLC, say Hi! and wave your hand to:
  • westernization, or
  • ability to self-reform as Natives Americans, or
  • two unique USA government bonuses, or
  • initial Noble Republics having royal marriages, or
  • terrain penalties, or
  • ability to assault forts without breaches, or
  • original building/fort system, or
  • basetax instead of development, or
  • non-capped attrition, or
  • remaining religion bonuses after conversion, or
  • multivassal nations without LDs, or
  • even direct control of Americas, or
  • valid start as Foix and Orleanes :)
(and the list is not complete)
 
Last edited:

Tacticus101

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There is not a lot of examples, but putting institutions as free feature and tying it to paid feature is not paywall?

Not really. Institutions are free feature added years after the game was released, even if the entire mechanic was part of the DLC it would still not be a paywall for that reason alone. The fact that if you purchased the DLC you get a bit more flexibility when it comes to spreading institutions makes it as much of a paywall as say edicts (MoH), which give you more flexibility in your use of states (a free feature).

Generally, a paywall would be something like what some MMOs and particularly mobile games do, where 90% of the game is unavailable unless you pay. Eu4 doesn't fit, both because it is a completely different model, with one upfront game and then DLC rather than free to play or subscription, and because the base game that you paid for is still there, you have lost nothing. If Paradox announced some new system where you needed a £5 a month subscription to play multiplayer on their games (after buying them), then that would be a paywall. In the current form Eu4 only has a paywall if you regard the DLC model as a "paywall", but then the term becomes functionally irrelevant.


Well, SP is easy. MP is more interesting. But by buying this expansion you have much easier time in SP and some good buffs for MP.
Truly, i could be exaggerating this. But it made my experience as Muscovy/Russia worse.

Most of the buffs Muscovy received are part of the free patch, not the DLC. The extra development, new provinces, new government types and ideas are all free. They were, I assume, added because for a long time there has been a lot of discussion on the forums about Muscovy underperforming compared to historically. Most of the DLC features are immersion features, designed to make the nation more interesting rather than just buff the nation.

Even if it was all part of the DLC, which also somehow supercharged Muscovy to Ottoman proportions; it would still not be pay to win because there is no competition. Adding a new race to Warhammer Total war that is a bit stronger than the others or a new Character to Borderlands that is a little over turned would not be pay to win, so neither is Eu4. It is a singleplayer game and even in multiplayer, everyone has the same advantage. Pay to win is the domain of Multiplayer games where those who spend money have better weapons, armour, classes etc than those who have not paid, which gives them a massive competitive advantage. I simply don't think the concept is applicable to a singleplayer sandbox grand strategy game.

Yay, they do something stealthy, then got angry comeback. Obviously, points to them for apologizing, but it is still strange.
And staying honest is good for any company, so its TA will be pleased.

Eh, they didn't hide it, they just were not clear with explaining their reasons for it or discussing things with the community. It was a fairly legitimate price equalisation based on the massive changes in currency strength and purchasing power since the game was released. They then, after talking with the community extensively, they apologised for the poor communication (which was already way beyond most companies) and rolled back the prices along with offering compensation by way of an apology for those effected. (note, prices are still probably going to go up).

Its a bit odd to continue with the whole "conspiracy theory" idea that it was a sneaky attempt to increase prices before the sale when their statements and actions indicate the opposite.

Firstly, 10£, irrc.

Its £6.99 on steam.


Secondly, it could be slider with events. Or triangle. Or something like that. But, for 10£ (price of the half of big expansions) you get some events, new government type and streltsy. Ah, and metropolitans and iconography, but this is feature for all orthodox nations iirc.
You are paying for experience, so it will differ, so it will be interesting, different from other experiences. Mandate of Haven, for me, is good example - playing in Asia feels different. Maybe creating something like that but with GH for some time would be more immersive. LIke, at start there is Throne of Khan icon in low right corner near HRE. It is, currently, Great Horde, but it can be taken through war or other mean by nearby horde. Lithuania and Russian principalities are tributaries at start to it. So, if all hordes are conquered this icon disappeares and who controls most of those territories gets some buff. You can improve relation to get some bonuses (legitimacy, army, etc) or claims on territories.

Mandate of heaven is a full DLC, costing more than twice as much. The point of the immersion pack is to be much less and more focussed. There have also already been patches for the Hordes, Hungary, Sweden and the other countries: we really don't need an entire mechanic to represent a very rarely played horde nation that died out very quickly.

It honestly sounds like you are less against the concept of an immersion pack or Paradox's policies, more that you just didn't enjoy the changes to Russia. That's fair enough, but I don't think the rant is very helpful at constructively analysing the changes and the effects they have.

And i have some questions to ask: have you bought it? How immersive it was? Have you felt that gameplay differs? Didn't you feel restricted by starting conditions?

Yes, I own it.
It makes the whole Russian region, Lithuania and Orthodox countries more much interesting to play.
Its an Immersion pack not an overhaul of a core mechanic, why would gameplay change?
Every starting location has restrictions, that's part of the game.
 

Tacticus101

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Say Hi! to westernization, or ability to self-reform as Natives Americans, or two unique USA government bonuses, or initial Noble Republics having royal marriages, or terrain penalties, or original building/fort system, or basetax instead of development, or non-capped attrition, or remaining religion bonuses after conversion, or multivassal nations without LDs, or even direct control of Americas, or valid start as Foix and Orleanes :)
(and the list is not complete)

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...patch-level-of-europa-universalis-iv.1009270/