Down side to Republics?

[oilers41]

What's the effect of having lower republican tradition?

There are some positive buffs that high tradition gives you, and possibly some negative modifiers if it is low (not sure on this since we cant really play long enough for the republic tradition to go very low with the time we are given). Most importantly though, I believe that it was said in one of the streams, possibly the OE stream but im not sure, if the republic tradition goes too low your country may turn into another government (I think it might be a Beurocratic Despotism, but again, not sure on this)

 

[Hive]

There are some positive buffs that high tradition gives you, and possibly some negative modifiers if it is low (not sure on this since we cant really play long enough for the republic tradition to go very low with the time we are given).

Rubbish, I did it with ease. I just kept selecting the same leader in elections and choose event options that took away tradition points, and BAM - Venice became a proud monarchy over night (and without even notifying me, actually - bug?).

You get significantly higher stability costs unless you keep the tradition REALLY high, though. So it's a rough road downhill.

 

[SomethingSharp]

90 might be pushing it just a bit, but they certainly did seem to value age when electing rulers.

Enrico Dandolo was blind and 93-ish when he led the Sack of Constantinople, but yeah probably most of them didn't quite get there. And the historical doge who you start with in 1492 was born in 1420, so if he lasted until nearly the end of the demo then he was pushing 100.

Is the point at which you revert to a monarchy set in stone or is it a random event once you get low enough? Because it still seems like optimum play is just to always reelect until you get too low, or you need to buy a stability boost.

One last idea - I wonder if it would be possible to mod in something similar to military tradition for each monarch point category - so certain actions would increase your focus on diplomacy or administration for instance. This would represent an investment by the state in that part of their bureaucracy, thus attracting more skilled people to that area. So if you focus on administration (by building a lot, or having admin advisors, etc.), your admin candidates improve. Of course we'd have to mod random rulers back in first - but since monarchs are still random, as long as it's not unscriptable it should be manageable.

 

[murlocmancer]

After each +1 stat you lose republic tradition. So if you keep that up your country will fall into civil war or go too a monarchy. And ofcourse no RM means no Pu and easy diplo points. You lost alot of stuff

 

[oilers41]

Rubbish, I did it with ease. I just kept selecting the same leader in elections and choose event options that took away tradition points, and BAM - Venice became a proud monarchy over night (and without even notifying me, actually - bug?).

Really? I played a whole Venice game and I think I only had two elections, and I never had a single event that changed republic tradtion. Nice to see how different things can be even over just 28 years

 

[unmerged(275616)]

I'm not sure what the means of determining monarch skills are; however, I am assuming the average combined king skill is a 9. If that is true, then a newly elected republican leader is on average worse than a king. You would need to reelect the same guy twice in order to catch up in point accumulation. That being said, republics obviously have a huge advantage in being able to focus monarch power in the areas in which it is critically needed. They are also much more consistent, so you don't have to worry about getting a terrible leader at an inconvenient time.

Novgorod has an idea to get +1 tradition per year. This means that they can recover 8 tradition between elections, giving them very powerful leaders.

 

[Hive]

I'm not sure what the means of determining monarch skills are; however, I am assuming the average combined king skill is a 9. If that is true, then a newly elected republican leader is on average worse than a king. You would need to reelect the same guy twice in order to catch up in point accumulation.

Perhaps 4/2/2, 2/4/2 and 2/2/4 leaders for the elections would be more fair, then.

Though I've noticed a great deal of really poor monarchs, so I'm not 100 % convinced that a combined 9 is indeed the average...

 

[underlordgc]

I hope with the Rev/CounterRev idea we'll have the option to install a monarchy or republic appropriately as part of a peace deal. In EU3 the casus belli only gave you the chance to take provinces and annex, but not actually change government types.

(I know that it won't)

Actually it does, at least the pop-up on Mali said I could, never bothered trying it because I was to busy annexing North Africa and Spain.

I believe that it was said in one of the streams, possibly the OE stream but im not sure, if the republic tradition goes too low your country may turn into another government (I think it might be a Beurocratic Despotism, but again, not sure on this)

As The Ottomans, rebels and 3 wars completely annihilated my nation and I turned into a Republic with 0 Tradition then a week or so later I changed back into a Despotic Monarchy.

 

[PabloB]

I'm not sure what the means of determining monarch skills are; however, I am assuming the average combined king skill is a 9. If that is true, then a newly elected republican leader is on average worse than a king. You would need to reelect the same guy twice in order to catch up in point accumulation. That being said, republics obviously have a huge advantage in being able to focus monarch power in the areas in which it is critically needed. They are also much more consistent, so you don't have to worry about getting a terrible leader at an inconvenient time.

Novgorod has an idea to get +1 tradition per year. This means that they can recover 8 tradition between elections, giving them very powerful leaders.

Well Kings can have 0's as well, so I assume the average would be 7.5 if it is linear, so only one re-election is needed to average it out.
But yeah, Novgorod looks like it could have really powerful leaders.

 

[Rabid]

A fresh republican ruler is distinctly below average, monarchies can influence their heir to a small degree from using him as a general and via some events, and losing republican tradition makes your stab cost go up a lot. I think it's a fair trade.

 

[BoleslavLev]

The average is 9.
0 ... 1 ... 2 ... 3 ... 4 ... 5 ... 6
................middle.................

 

[Hive]

The average is 9.
0 ... 1 ... 2 ... 3 ... 4 ... 5 ... 6
................middle.................

Middle value is not the same as the average of the distribution.

Paradox could, in theory, have made 80 % of the monarchs 0/0/0 and 20 % 6/6/6. Now while I'm a bit rusty in statistics, I'm preeetty sure the average of that combination is *not* 3/3/3.

 

[PabloB]

The average is 9.
0 ... 1 ... 2 ... 3 ... 4 ... 5 ... 6
................middle.................

Whoops, I suck at maths.
And yeah, its probably exponential or something for monarchs.

 

[BoleslavLev]

Well I am not familiar with their data. Value of 9 is average of all possible sums. As for the chance any sum would appear, it is clear that sums of 0 and 18 can be made only by one way whether others can be made by several ways. If you count that into regard, I don´t know by heart which number would have the most ways of being formed, but I still think it would be 9.

EDIT: I am not sure if this is right (since I start going to university I know nothing at all, that good is our education system). But I think it goes like this:
total sum; number of possible variantes which leads to that sum
0 and 18; 1
1 and 17; 3
2 and 16; 6
3 and 15; 10
4 and 14; 15 (to this point I counted it)
5 and 13; 21
6 and 12; 28
7 and 11; 36
8 and 10; 45
9; 55

Correct me if I estimated that badly. If I am correct, the sum of 9 is still the most common one. The probability you get a ruler with the sum of 9 (for monarchies, where it is at random) is 25%.

 

[Hive]

Well I am not familiar with their data. Value of 9 is average of all possible sums. As for the chance any sum would appear, it is clear that sums of 0 and 18 can be made only by one way whether others can be made by several ways. If you count that into regard, I don´t know by heart which number would have the most ways of being formed, but I still think it would be 9.

But your assumption relies on Paradox's monarch ratings being completely random. They are not, they are subjectively assigned - so you cannot expect the average value to follow the logic of a dice roll.

 

[BoleslavLev]

Damn, I am not even a programmer. Are we discussing the pros and cons of republics or some informal technology math. I don´t know hoe it works (one of my friends made some presentation on the similar topic when he was at grammar school. That the generator of the random numbers isn´t totally random - there are some cyclic issues). Other than that, I´ve never even came close to this sort of problems.

 

[ThatStrategyGuy]

I can't remember, but do all the republics get those bonuses to Tolerance? 'cos we all know that with Monarchs its just repressing people all the time and when you get glorious republican leaders like Oliver Cromwell all religions are treated equally

 

[Vox Imperatoris]

I can't remember, but do all the republics get those bonuses to Tolerance? 'cos we all know that with Monarchs its just repressing people all the time and when you get glorious republican leaders like Oliver Cromwell all religions are treated equally

Hah! Humanist Tolerance is one of the options under "Plutocratic Ideas", which is only available to Republics, but it's late-game and nothing says you have to pick it. You can run Unam Sanctam if you want.