In my current game, after my throne on HRE was usurped, shouldn't my HRE vassals be passed to the new emperor?
I kept all of them under my character, king of Bavaria.
I kept all of them under my character, king of Bavaria.
Doubt about HRE usurped from me
- Thread starter Dotto1979
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Usurped how? If they actually used "Usurp title", then this is how it works, you get the title but not the vassals.. If he got the Empire by Conquest or Election, then you should have kept only the De-Jure vassals of Bavaria...
It's a known (and very agrivating) bug, they should indeed pass to the new emperor.
Is it known how to replicate it, so I can avoid? And does this happens on all empires?
Probably only elective, and maybe the ERE, where successions are very screwed up indeed.
it's not "technically" a bug, but a not well implemented design choice.
you see, while HRE AND King of Bavaria, the vassals are first below your intermediate next highest tier. more specifically, they are non de-jure vassals under your Bavarian kingdom instead of the more appropriate mix of ducal vassals under your imperial title and the de-jure dukes under the bavarian kingdom. This becomes a problem when the imperial title is lost, as the rest of the duke and count vassals were not counted as under the HRE but under the bavarian kingdom, ie. you.
you see, while HRE AND King of Bavaria, the vassals are first below your intermediate next highest tier. more specifically, they are non de-jure vassals under your Bavarian kingdom instead of the more appropriate mix of ducal vassals under your imperial title and the de-jure dukes under the bavarian kingdom. This becomes a problem when the imperial title is lost, as the rest of the duke and count vassals were not counted as under the HRE but under the bavarian kingdom, ie. you.
Which is, indeed, not the way things should be in many cases. As in, it's understandable that usurping a title is not really the same as usurping a realm. You wrest or steal the title away from someone and land it on top of your current titles but nothing more changes. This is some representation of rival emperors, anti-kings etc. But if you do usurp a kingdom, then obviously the former king shouldn't have all formerly immediate counts in the realm under his duchy.
Claimants who are landless get 1 county and the deposed ruler retains all other titles and vassals (at least below his tier, of coourse)--this is even more of a problem as it defeats the purpose of installing a claimant. Not to mention that the claimant doesn't have a truce with the defeated predecessor, meaning a war of reconquest can begin on day one and lead to very predictable reasons. This, in turn, makes more sense with usurpation. Again, usurping a title is different from installing a claimant.
To give you an example. If you as king of France intervene in the HRE and install a claimant, let's say, son of the previous Kaiser as emperor, overthrowing the new elect who turned bad, (or just because you're married to the claimant's sister), you go there, come there, and put a new emperor in the capital. On the other hand, if you have two multidukes at exactly 50% usurping a kingdom from each other, or a duchy of six counties split 3/3, usurpation means the title travels but the power does not. The guy stays in his capital and rules from there, after a while the other duchy or county becomes supreme in the realm. Kinda like high kingship circulating in Ireland or something.
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My understanding is: if you press a claim to a title and win, vassals under that title go to you. If you get most of the de jure territory and start calling yourself the new King, vassals stay where they are.
This happens only when a usurped ruler has the only Kingdom in an Empire.
I wonder if something similar happens if there's just one duke in an empire/kingdom.
I wonder if something similar happens if there's just one duke in an empire/kingdom.
On the other hand, I'm not sure but I think I've seen counts stay under the former king when demoted to duke after a succession crisis.
Right. I'm pretty sure that any vassals who are still lower-rank than their liege stay vassals, while any who become his peer go independent after a usurpation. I know you get the vassals if you press a claim to the primary title. Haven’t started a test game to confirm all the corner cases. Please correct me if I’m mistaken.