Doomstacked Doomstack Doom-Thread: ReDoox

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Legendsmith

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You don't take into account how big space is, and how far apart the effective engagement range is...
This really reads like "Space is big therefore tactics don't exist, everyone lines up and then blazes at each other because there's no other alternative."
I don't buy it. Are ships positioning themselves that far apart in game? No. Do most weapons have that much range? No, except for spinal mounts and artillery. Furthermore, this theoretical massive engagement range where everything can shoot everything is something that's just taken for granted, but not necessarily true. Ever heard of Aurora 4x? It's a game of sorts, often called the Dwarf Fortress of 4X games. It really slams some things into the ground regarding assumptions, one of my favourite being about engagement ranges and sensors. Never assume that everything is meaningfully visible to everyone in space. We can see heaps of things in the solar system from earth at huge ranges, but that's because we have huge arrays of sensors. A ship just has its own and the sensors of the ships around it. If say, a targeting sensor can see really far, it might not have the resolution to actually lock onto a small target, unless the sensor itself is big, etc. Nothing of a given size can do everything. I know Stellaris isn't Aurora 4X, but the situation you describe isn't Stellaris either.

I'm not sure, that seems kind of absurd to me, how would it be justified? I think a better approach would be for having a planet bombarded or invaded to have long lasting consequences, that will weaken you long after the war is over and during the war too.
Where does fleet cap capacity come from? Part of it comes from population. If your population is occupied, how can it give you that fleet cap? It's logical.
Regarding the empire wide happiness penalty, you're talking about something akin to war exhaustion, that might be something good, however I'm far more interested in harsher per-planet based penalties, as that means that specific planets can be targeted which makes for interesting strategy rather than occupying some useless fringe worlds and nerfing the enemy empire-wide. I think the idea of resource storage being accessible (linked in the summary under "Planets as high value targets" ) is a good one because it makes invasions really worthwhile and concerning for the enemy. I'm not entirely sure about making bombardment give huge penalties because it makes planetary invasions even more irrelevant than they already are.
I think doomstacks can't be solved with different combat mechanics, they just alter the balance so the optimal strategy changes a bit, mostly by requiring micromanagement to optimize. What would have the biggest impact is, if not protecting your territory has long term consequences for your economy and conquering planets would also provide you with benefits beyond warscore.
Different combat mechanics is part of it though, it's just not the whole thing as has been said already.

That aside, what do you think of my take on system wide auras?
 
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Aswan

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@Legendsmith nice summary so far. However, I feel like theres something missing. Several people suggested a more RTS-style control. Maybe allowing control of fleets even in battle would solve lots of things. If we could retreat in a normal way by just turning and flying away while being shot at, that would make for interesteding strategic decisions. If we could kite and stay at range, weapon range and speed would be a lot more interesting and make for much more dynamic battles. Being able to kite / run away would also encourage spliting of fleets. Flanking would become a thing even without flanking bonuses just to cut the retreating path.
We Could have AoE weapons, maybe even some that have to be aimed by the player itself. That would devinitely encourage splitting and it would allow for a technically weaker fleet to pose a thread to a big stack if the big stack owner doesnt pay attention.

Edit: I also think having small raiding fleets is severely underrated right now since people just don't seem to get the instant gratification of seeing their warscore increase by killing enemy mining stations, yet it can win you a war by destroying the enemies economy. If we had some kind of espionage if may be possible to see enemy mineral/EC income and therefore therefore it would be more obvious what raiding fleets actually do. However, I think with time passing people will realize raiding fleets are actually really good escpecially because even very small ones can deny a lot of income to the enemy.
 

Aswan

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An issue I'd like to add is that you can't rebuild your fleet quickly enough or have enough mineral output to do so, It's often enough that the first initial battle will decide the entire war.

Good point. Rebuilding a fleet quickly is really hard especially if the opposing fleet is still decently sized. For the mineral output, just increasing mineral production or making ships cheaper wouldn't make a difference since the enemy would also get more minerals / cheaper ships to replenish, but a higher mineral upkeep for a standing fleet would make more of a difference I thin. The player who just lost most of his fleet would have a decent boost to his mineral income.
Also, increasing mineral storage by a lot may be interesting here, especially if mineral upkeep gets increased and build times reduced. Not building too much fleet but instead having a nice mineral pile could actually be good then because you save the upkeep cost for a while. Would be an interesting strategic tradeoff and if would make having a strong fleet readily available be a big investment.
 

Legendsmith

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Thanks @Aswan, I knew I'd forgotten something.
I do agree though, there needs to be some way for fleet combat to be more nuanced.

@Summin Cool
I'm undecided on that chage. If a defender can build faster, so can an attacker. Keeping minerals in reserve as an easily fluid, un-attackable fleet that takes say, a year to appear might have interesting balance consequences.
 

Summin Cool

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Thanks @Aswan, I knew I'd forgotten something.
I do agree though, there needs to be some way for fleet combat to be more nuanced.

@Summin Cool
I'm undecided on that chage. If a defender can build faster, so can an attacker. Keeping minerals in reserve as an easily fluid, un-attackable fleet that takes say, a year to appear might have interesting balance consequences.
It depends if you want wars to be decided by attrition or a decisive battle. I'll post a larger and more comprehensive version of what I have in mind sometime later.
 

Drowe

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This really reads like "Space is big therefore tactics don't exist, everyone lines up and then blazes at each other because there's no other alternative."
I don't buy it. Are ships positioning themselves that far apart in game? No. Do most weapons have that much range? No, except for spinal mounts and artillery. Furthermore, this theoretical massive engagement range where everything can shoot everything is something that's just taken for granted, but not necessarily true. Ever heard of Aurora 4x? It's a game of sorts, often called the Dwarf Fortress of 4X games. It really slams some things into the ground regarding assumptions, one of my favourite being about engagement ranges and sensors. Never assume that everything is meaningfully visible to everyone in space. We can see heaps of things in the solar system from earth at huge ranges, but that's because we have huge arrays of sensors. A ship just has its own and the sensors of the ships around it. If say, a targeting sensor can see really far, it might not have the resolution to actually lock onto a small target, unless the sensor itself is big, etc. Nothing of a given size can do everything. I know Stellaris isn't Aurora 4X, but the situation you describe isn't Stellaris either.
A spaceship is about as subtle as a flare on a moonless night. You could see it coming lightyears away if there is no FTL involved. That's for several reasons, its thrusters are an instant giveaway, that's the equivalent of detonating nukes behind your ship. The next thing are its shields, they project energy and light it up like a Christmas tree. If it doesn't have shields and no active thrusters it still radiates in the infrared, and that is something unavoidable, ships are so much hotter than the space around them that it would get picked easily without the need for massive sensor installations. The only reason we need them is to look at other stars or even galaxies, and the Hubble space telescope is much better at it anyway because there's no atmosphere in the way, the same would be true for spaceships. In a setting as Stellaris, I can't conceive any way in which a spaceship could avoid detection unless it's hiding behind something else or at some point cloaking is invented.

I recommend watching the episode about space warfare by Isaac Arthur, he goes in depth why you can't hide in space.

Where does fleet cap capacity come from? Part of it comes from population. If your population is occupied, how can it give you that fleet cap? It's logical.
Regarding the empire wide happiness penalty, you're talking about something akin to war exhaustion, that might be something good, however I'm far more interested in harsher per-planet based penalties, as that means that specific planets can be targeted which makes for interesting strategy rather than occupying some useless fringe worlds and nerfing the enemy empire-wide. I think the idea of resource storage being accessible (linked in the summary under "Planets as high value targets" ) is a good one because it makes invasions really worthwhile and concerning for the enemy. I'm not entirely sure about making bombardment give huge penalties because it makes planetary invasions even more irrelevant than they already are.
I'm not really a big fan of the fleet cap in general, I feel it should depend on your economy how many ships you can support, not some arbitrary limit. I also think the economy of HoI would be better suited to Stellaris than what we currently have.

Maybe I didn't explain it very well, there should be an empire wide penalty for not protecting your planets, for example a happiness penalty that doesn't instantly go away when the bombardment stops, but an even higher penalty for actually losing the planet to an invasion, but it should start small and rise the longer the planet is being bombarded or occupied. I would also give a diplomatic penalty for bombarding planets longer than necessary, but that's just me. The planet itself gets a modifier as well, something like "recently bombarded" and "recently occupied" that ticks up the longer the planet is under bombardment or occupation, which reduces productivity by a significant margin and gives the amount by which it is reduced to the occupier, here I would actually let the bombardment modifier be worse than the occupation one. If the siege gets lifted the bombardment modifier starts to slowly tick down, if the bombarding fleet was driven away you could apply a moderate happiness bonus for a short while. Occupied planets lose less productivity, but their resource output goes to the occupier instead, this would give a large incentive to both invade valuable planets and protect them, since not only are you getting deprived of the resources, but your opponent gets them instead. Taking the planet back gives a moderate happiness bonus again.

That aside, what do you think of my take on system wide auras?
System wide auras are fine by me, I think anything that makes defensive stations better in such a way that it doesn't encourage doomstacks is a good idea. That's why I think that defensive stations should have a much higher range, they are so far apart from each other, that going at them one by one with a doomstack is less efficient than taking them out with multiple smaller fleets, especially if sublight speed depends on fleet size.

Several people suggested a more RTS-style control. Maybe allowing control of fleets even in battle would solve lots of things. If we could retreat in a normal way by just turning and flying away while being shot at, that would make for interesteding strategic decisions. If we could kite and stay at range, weapon range and speed would be a lot more interesting and make for much more dynamic battles. Being able to kite / run away would also encourage spliting of fleets. Flanking would become a thing even without flanking bonuses just to cut the retreating path.
This would be a step in the right direction, but unlikely to happen I think. There should at least be an option to disengage from a fight to retreat towards your defenses, it makes no sense to me, that you automatically engage the fleet as soon as it is in range.

We Could have AoE weapons, maybe even some that have to be aimed by the player itself. That would devinitely encourage splitting and it would allow for a technically weaker fleet to pose a thread to a big stack if the big stack owner doesnt pay attention.
That's a terrible idea without tactical combat, the result would be that you just split up your fleets into multiple smaller ones but still move them together, you'd micro them a bit so they can't all be damaged by a single shot and that's it. The extreme version would be that you control each individual ship so AoE doesn't affect you.

Edit: I also think having small raiding fleets is severely underrated right now since people just don't seem to get the instant gratification of seeing their warscore increase by killing enemy mining stations, yet it can win you a war by destroying the enemies economy. If we had some kind of espionage if may be possible to see enemy mineral/EC income and therefore therefore it would be more obvious what raiding fleets actually do. However, I think with time passing people will realize raiding fleets are actually really good escpecially because even very small ones can deny a lot of income to the enemy.
Actually, since mining stations contribute too little to your economy and cost less than a corvette they aren't worth the effort. They would need to be more valuable and more time consuming to replace. It would need a rework of the economy, but I think it would do the most to discourage doomstacks.
 

Legendsmith

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@Drowe Alright I get what you mean regarding the empire wide penalty. ("LOOK AT THE VID FEED THE GOVERNMENT IS JUST LETTING THEM BOMB ISHRAK 5!") It does make sense. I also agree with what you said regarding AOE weapons, without RTS style controls it's just frustrating or creates loads more micro and RTS controls aren't likely at all.. Your point about the mining stations is true too. A mining station costs 90 and usually produces 2 minerals a month, that means it takes 3 years and 9 months to pay itself back. A ground based mine only takes 2 and a half years if it's constructed on a blank tile, or 20 months if it's constructed on a 1 mineral tile (for 3 mineral output max). That means that mining stations are just insanely inefficient, hardly the core of an economy. Ground based mines are cheaper and nigh indestructible, buildings are rarely, rarely ruined.

Now, regarding detection, stealth, combat, etc in space. I haven't watched that video but I have the Atomic rockets pages. It's hard sci fi. But is stellaris hard scifi? No, it's not. Torchships, orbital mechanics and such are great, I really love hard scifi, but Stellaris isn't hard scifi and it's not trying to be hard scifi, so we shouldn't make suggestions based on hard science fiction. If we want to go down that path then the drive plumes from a ship needs to be at least the size of the ship.
If you want hard scifi, try Children of a Dead Earth.

@Summin Cool I definitely want wars to be decided slowly with attrition rather than in a single decisive battle, I'm interested in your full concept.
 

HAL.9000.1

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Actually, since mining stations contribute too little to your economy and cost less than a corvette they aren't worth the effort. They would need to be more valuable and more time consuming to replace. It would need a rework of the economy, but I think it would do the most to discourage doomstacks.

Shhh...don't tell the AI, but I have hatched a plan (very late game and I already have the full sensor array and complete map info) to start my war against the other 70% of the galaxy by launching simultaneous raids by small squadrons of destroyers (well, probably destroyers; maybe corvettes) to quickly take out all enemy strategic resource stations. Maybe one empire at a time, or targeting only a certain resource or two (I haven't counted up how many systems this is going to be), but it's the quickest way I can think of to begin to offset their 2-to-1 fleet strength advantage. It's going to take a lot of clicking, but I'd love to see the look on their CGI faces as my little squadrons start fanning out from 3-4 fleet bases.
 

HAL.9000.1

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...I feel like there's something missing. Several people suggested a more RTS-style control. Maybe allowing control of fleets even in battle would solve lots of things. If we could retreat in a normal way by just turning and flying away while being shot at, that would make for interesting strategic decisions. If we could kite and stay at range, weapon range and speed would be a lot more interesting and make for much more dynamic battles. Being able to kite / run away would also encourage spliting of fleets. Flanking would become a thing even without flanking bonuses just to cut the retreating path.

Agreed. In fact, I put forward exactly this idea in the suggestions thread (it's on page two now), with the same reasoning, even. Great minds think alike!
 

Drowe

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@Legendsmith
I know Stellaris isn't hard science, but I don't like going away from that when it has no reasonable impact on gameplay. And such a mechanic would have little to no impact, unless you make the effect strong enough that it becomes punishing, which leads to different problems.

That's why I focus on changes that make splitting up doomstacks and spreading them out important, rather than making doomstacks worse. That is best achieved by involving the economy and make targeting it a valid strategy. Rather than having it all decided by doomstacks duking it out.
 

HAL.9000.1

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@LegendsmithRather than having it all decided by doomstacks duking it out.

You know, I was just thinking, and doomstacks have played a very significant role in human history, haven't they? Salamis. The Battle of the Saintes. Trafalgar. Jutland. Midway. There are more than those, but you get the idea. Whenever two naval powers contend, it is natural and logical to concentrate forces in preparation for a massive battle, even if you have some forces left over (as the British usually did, and Yamamoto thought he did, but did not) for secondary theatres of operation. Even if the result was a draw and losses were low (something that I don't think happens very often in Stellaris), these battles all had a decisive effect on their wars.

So doomstacks aren't illogical, although the best strategy is having a doomstack to just about match your enemy doomstack, plus enough forces left over to attack other worlds/sectors, and isn't that the way Stellaris is already?

Mind you, I still think allowing in-battle maneuvering will partially mitigate the tendency towards exclusive use of a single doomstack, because a large fleet is a wide fleet, and it would be very effective to engage it from one direction with your main fleet while rolling it up from one flank with a smaller, faster squadron (whether that is cruisers, destroyers, corvettes or even BB's with afterburners would be up to you).

But overall, the strategic reasons for doomstacking are sound. How's that for taking a contrarian position on this thread?
 

Volcanuz

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Add a Evasion deficit depending on the increase/number of ships and a friendly fire/hold fire mechanic making it so certain types of weapons get a penalty to being able to shoot due to dense coverage of allied ships making coil guns and lasers harder to use in a doom swarm/stack and a delay on missile based weapons. Friendly fire would really make people not do it, i mean imagine that many ships in one area trying to fire missiles and large cannons, you are going to hit a ship moving in front of you. Or evading shots would or could hit your friend behind you or just the lack of areas to go in that swarm decreasing your ability to miss if you fight a doom or for the doom to dodge certain weapons.

Or maybe you could put a limit to how much ships in certain sizes an admiral can control and the more you go over that limit the less effective the ships or his bonus becomes.
 

Drowe

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You know, I was just thinking, and doomstacks have played a very significant role in human history, haven't they? Salamis. The Battle of the Saintes. Trafalgar. Jutland. Midway. There are more than those, but you get the idea. Whenever two naval powers contend, it is natural and logical to concentrate forces in preparation for a massive battle, even if you have some forces left over (as the British usually did, and Yamamoto thought he did, but did not) for secondary theatres of operation. Even if the result was a draw and losses were low (something that I don't think happens very often in Stellaris), these battles all had a decisive effect on their wars.

So doomstacks aren't illogical, although the best strategy is having a doomstack to just about match your enemy doomstack, plus enough forces left over to attack other worlds/sectors, and isn't that the way Stellaris is already?

Mind you, I still think allowing in-battle maneuvering will partially mitigate the tendency towards exclusive use of a single doomstack, because a large fleet is a wide fleet, and it would be very effective to engage it from one direction with your main fleet while rolling it up from one flank with a smaller, faster squadron (whether that is cruisers, destroyers, corvettes or even BB's with afterburners would be up to you).

But overall, the strategic reasons for doomstacking are sound. How's that for taking a contrarian position on this thread?
It does have its place, but such battles are rather rare. There is a reason why they are rare in our history, and that's because wars on the sea tended to be more of a support for land based warfare. A naval power such as Britain needed to secure trade routes remained open, something that Germany made difficult with their submarines during WW2, until the anti submarine tactics and technology improved and by using magnetic mines, until some bomber made the mistake and dropped one of them deactivated right into the lap of the British, so they figured out what was killing their ships and devised ways to clear those mines.

So yes, doomstack fleets are a thing and should be possible, but only be used on rare occasions.
 

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You don't take into account how big space is, and how far apart the effective engagement range is. Real world battles are simply not comparable to space battles. You can easily position your ships many kilometers apart and still be considered in a formation, you are also not limited to the two dimensions we tend to think in when it comes to naval battles. Then there is the enormous distance two fleets can shoot and hit each other at. Depending on how maneuverable ships are, this could be in the millions of kilometers for battleships that are a slow as bricks to a few thousand kilometers for agile corvettes and a few hundred kilometers for fighters and bombers. That is still not a distance at which you need to worry about getting in each other's line of fire, since your ships will be spaced out over an area of hundreds if not thousands of kilometers like a wall of ships with very big holes in it, ideally coordinated by a Fleet-AI to make sure every ship is where it's supposed to be. The chance for any ship not being able to target any other ship, without risking friendly fire, for more than a second is so low it can be ignored for all intents and purposes.


But that is already the case, if you have a fleet as well as defenses, then they do make a huge difference with their auras, the problem is that they die too quickly if they are on their own without making a dent in the enemy's fleet. They can't cover each other very well, so you can pick them off one by one, without many losses. This would change if all defensive structures could shoot at you from anywhere in the system, taking them out with one big fleet will result in much higher losses than splitting up your fleet and attacking from multiple directions at once, which in turn makes you vulnerable if the defender can add his own ships to the mix, they wouldn't have to fight the whole fleet at the same time, having the option of taking on one fleet first, then the other, which gives them a fighting chance. If on the other hand the attacker doesn't split his fleet, then the stations can fire at him for longer than they would otherwise be able to, giving the defender more time to bring in his own fleet or launch a counter attack while his attacker's fleets are tied up fighting defenses. It would be essentially hav the same effect as the flower of death (one fortress with a snare near the star, surrounded by as many fortresses as you can place, the overlapping auras look like a flower), except that you may not need to kill them all to move on, and at best three fortresses can shoot at you simultaneously. If they have more range, then attacking such a system is costly and time consuming, and can go terribly wrong if a defending fleet comes in. Although if that were implemented, cost and build time would need to go up significantly. It has some logical issues too, since hitting something across a solar system would be very unlikely, but the Dimensional Horror has an incredible range too, so maybe it could be hand waved.

Yes, Space is infinite... but unless range is infinite as well, you will still have ships that need to take the time to get into place so they can fire. Yes, that already happens to a point, but if you're willing to take the size and distances battles are done in the game as an abstraction rather than as fact, there is no reason why you can't play with that aspect a bit to give smaller fleet more time to live.

Also, there is also the coordination aspect, which could be tied to admiral rank. I mean, based on my experience playing Homeworld, maintain formations that let you bring all possible fire to bear as quickly as possible is hard, especially when the enemy doesn't attack from the angle you were expecting, even when you have a third dimension to work with.

As for defensive station, there are two flaws with your scenario. First is that not all FTL types will have the ability to attack a system from multiple directions. Hyperdrive especially, but a Wormhole empire that hasn't built an array that can reach the system in question will also have trouble.

Second, the only way you can make not splitting the fleet and leave your ships more vulnerable to an enemy fleet picking them off one by one more appealing than eating the loses from staying in a single fleet for all the stations in system is by making defensive stations do so much damage that an empire can effectively turtle with stations and nothing else... which will make most wide empires untouchable to those who do not have the mineral income to build massive defensive station arrays to protect all their worlds AND a fleet large enough to take out the other empire's in short order. Remeber; Fleet's the most valuable thing, and 99% of people are going to pick the option that has the lowest chance of getting all of their fleet wiped out.
A spaceship is about as subtle as a flare on a moonless night. You could see it coming lightyears away if there is no FTL involved. That's for several reasons, its thrusters are an instant giveaway, that's the equivalent of detonating nukes behind your ship. The next thing are its shields, they project energy and light it up like a Christmas tree. If it doesn't have shields and no active thrusters it still radiates in the infrared, and that is something unavoidable, ships are so much hotter than the space around them that it would get picked easily without the need for massive sensor installations. The only reason we need them is to look at other stars or even galaxies, and the Hubble space telescope is much better at it anyway because there's no atmosphere in the way, the same would be true for spaceships. In a setting as Stellaris, I can't conceive any way in which a spaceship could avoid detection unless it's hiding behind something else or at some point cloaking is invented.

I recommend watching the episode about space warfare by Isaac Arthur, he goes in depth why you can't hide in space.

One flaw with that logic; Observation post, by the very fluff in the game, are capable of space stealth (it says so with almost any event related to it) even when its Atomic or Early Space Age civs that they are secretly observing, whom also didn't become instantly aware of your presence the second your science ship entered the system. Meaning that in Stellaris, such things are theoretically possible, even if our current real-world understanding of stealth in space says they are anything but.
 

HAL.9000.1

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It does have its place, but such battles are rather rare. There is a reason why they are rare in our history, and that's because wars on the sea tended to be more of a support for land based warfare. A naval power such as Britain needed to secure trade routes remained open, something that Germany made difficult with their submarines during WW2, until the anti submarine tactics and technology improved and by using magnetic mines, until some bomber made the mistake and dropped one of them deactivated right into the lap of the British, so they figured out what was killing their ships and devised ways to clear those mines.

So yes, doomstack fleets are a thing and should be possible, but only be used on rare occasions.

Name a naval war that didn't have doomstacks, or a doomstack battle, for that matter. I can't think of one, where both sides had fleets, that is (and there I cleverly pre-empt your citing the Revolutionary War, where the US had no fleet and was restricted to commerce raiding, although in reality it was the French doomstack that neutralized the British and forced Cornwallis' surrender). Even in the example you cite, Britain took care of her doomstack first, and then sent ships elsewhere only when she was sure the doomstack was big enough.

The game is too big in scope to make hands-on commerce raiding or economic warfare similar to the U-boat campaigns possible, at least for humans, but you could abstract this into an "escort command/raiding command" subroutine as in Stellar Crusade, where escorts target raiders and raiders target shipping and the losses each month affect your % income collected in the next month. But just as in real life, that won't eliminate the need for doomstacks.

BTW, in my games I follow the British pattern. Try to keep the main fleet large enough to focus the enemy's attention and/or force a battle, and then split off smaller fleets to invade peripheral planets, or act as "bait" to set the enemy up for a one-two punch. I've lost a few good admirals that way, when the main fleet is a bit too slow to arrive, but the follow-on battle is usually a worthy tribute to their memory...
 

Drowe

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Name a naval war that didn't have doomstacks, or a doomstack battle, for that matter. I can't think of one, where both sides had fleets, that is (and there I cleverly pre-empt your citing the Revolutionary War, where the US had no fleet and was restricted to commerce raiding, although in reality it was the French doomstack that neutralized the British and forced Cornwallis' surrender). Even in the example you cite, Britain took care of her doomstack first, and then sent ships elsewhere only when she was sure the doomstack was big enough.

The game is too big in scope to make hands-on commerce raiding or economic warfare similar to the U-boat campaigns possible, at least for humans, but you could abstract this into an "escort command/raiding command" subroutine as in Stellar Crusade, where escorts target raiders and raiders target shipping and the losses each month affect your % income collected in the next month. But just as in real life, that won't eliminate the need for doomstacks.

BTW, in my games I follow the British pattern. Try to keep the main fleet large enough to focus the enemy's attention and/or force a battle, and then split off smaller fleets to invade peripheral planets, or act as "bait" to set the enemy up for a one-two punch. I've lost a few good admirals that way, when the main fleet is a bit too slow to arrive, but the follow-on battle is usually a worthy tribute to their memory...
WW2 between Germany and Britain, no doomstack battle. There wasn't a real doomstack battle between the US and Japan either, those were decided by aircraft, despite the Japanese having a true decisive battle doctrine after it worked well against Russia. I thought much the same way until I read up on it, just look it up, the decisive battle was a rare thing in our history and even then it usually ended with a few sunk ships not entire fleets destroyed.
 

HAL.9000.1

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WW2 between Germany and Britain, no doomstack battle. There wasn't a real doomstack battle between the US and Japan either, those were decided by aircraft, despite the Japanese having a true decisive battle doctrine after it worked well against Russia. I thought much the same way until I read up on it, just look it up, the decisive battle was a rare thing in our history and even then it usually ended with a few sunk ships not entire fleets destroyed.

In WW2, there was no doomstack battle because the Germans didn't have a doomstack, they focused on commerce raiding. And look at how well that worked for them. The British still maintained a doomstack, however. Advantage: doomstack! And I think that Midway counts as a doomstack battle, because by that time aircraft carriers were the new doomstack component and both sides put as many as they could into that fight. Well, except for Yamamoto, who had a couple undergoing repairs after a sideshow, and a two off in Alaska chasing down a couple of elusive islands. His defeat was the direct result of his failing to follow the doomstack doctrine. Advantage: doomstack!

Other doomstack battles: Navarino, Copenhagen, The Glorious First of June, the Medway, the Nile, Camperdown, Cape St. Vincent, the Battle(s) of the Spanish Armada, Lepanto, Manticore. The message is clear: you ignore the doomstack at your peril. Your fleet should be organized so that your main fleet slightly overmatches that of your enemy, and then if you can accomplish that you can start throwing detached squadrons around for mischief-making. Trying to re-write the rules to make that impractical flies in the face of history, both past and future.

As I mentioned, there are ways to employ multiple fleets in a single battle, which do put the doomstack in danger of being flanked, and I think players should definitely experiment with those. But...Doomstacks Forever! I'll admit when I started this line of reasoning I was doing it partly tongue-in-cheek, but now I'm becoming somewhat attached to it. And I contend that history supports me.

There was a reason, after all, that Jellicoe was called "the man who could have lost the War in a single afternoon". But thanks to his faithful adherence to the doomstack philosophy and living the doomstack lifestyle, he avoided that fate. And sometimes a draw is as good as a win, twice on Sundays (see also: Admiral deGrasse).
 

durbal

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In WW2, there was no doomstack battle because the Germans didn't have a doomstack, they focused on commerce raiding. And look at how well that worked for them. The British still maintained a doomstack, however. Advantage: doomstack! And I think that Midway counts as a doomstack battle, because by that time aircraft carriers were the new doomstack component and both sides put as many as they could into that fight. Well, except for Yamamoto, who had a couple undergoing repairs after a sideshow, and a two off in Alaska chasing down a couple of elusive islands. His defeat was the direct result of his failing to follow the doomstack doctrine. Advantage: doomstack!

Other doomstack battles: Navarino, Copenhagen, The Glorious First of June, the Medway, the Nile, Camperdown, Cape St. Vincent, the Battle(s) of the Spanish Armada, Lepanto, Manticore. The message is clear: you ignore the doomstack at your peril. Your fleet should be organized so that your main fleet slightly overmatches that of your enemy, and then if you can accomplish that you can start throwing detached squadrons around for mischief-making. Trying to re-write the rules to make that impractical flies in the face of history, both past and future.

As I mentioned, there are ways to employ multiple fleets in a single battle, which do put the doomstack in danger of being flanked, and I think players should definitely experiment with those. But...Doomstacks Forever! I'll admit when I started this line of reasoning I was doing it partly tongue-in-cheek, but now I'm becoming somewhat attached to it. And I contend that history supports me.

There was a reason, after all, that Jellicoe was called "the man who could have lost the War in a single afternoon". But thanks to his faithful adherence to the doomstack philosophy and living the doomstack lifestyle, he avoided that fate. And sometimes a draw is as good as a win, twice on Sundays (see also: Admiral deGrasse).

Except that in those battles entire fleets weren't sunk leaving nations defenseless. Damage is too high overall and there's no concept of morale -- which is absurd. Capital ships and their crews face inevitable death as they keep going until they blow up into space dust.

There are no critical hits, disabled systems, etc. Nothing in the game works like real naval warfare in the slightest.
 

Drowe

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In WW2, there was no doomstack battle because the Germans didn't have a doomstack, they focused on commerce raiding. And look at how well that worked for them. The British still maintained a doomstack, however. Advantage: doomstack! And I think that Midway counts as a doomstack battle, because by that time aircraft carriers were the new doomstack component and both sides put as many as they could into that fight. Well, except for Yamamoto, who had a couple undergoing repairs after a sideshow, and a two off in Alaska chasing down a couple of elusive islands. His defeat was the direct result of his failing to follow the doomstack doctrine. Advantage: doomstack!

Other doomstack battles: Navarino, Copenhagen, The Glorious First of June, the Medway, the Nile, Camperdown, Cape St. Vincent, the Battle(s) of the Spanish Armada, Lepanto, Manticore. The message is clear: you ignore the doomstack at your peril. Your fleet should be organized so that your main fleet slightly overmatches that of your enemy, and then if you can accomplish that you can start throwing detached squadrons around for mischief-making. Trying to re-write the rules to make that impractical flies in the face of history, both past and future.

As I mentioned, there are ways to employ multiple fleets in a single battle, which do put the doomstack in danger of being flanked, and I think players should definitely experiment with those. But...Doomstacks Forever! I'll admit when I started this line of reasoning I was doing it partly tongue-in-cheek, but now I'm becoming somewhat attached to it. And I contend that history supports me.

There was a reason, after all, that Jellicoe was called "the man who could have lost the War in a single afternoon". But thanks to his faithful adherence to the doomstack philosophy and living the doomstack lifestyle, he avoided that fate. And sometimes a draw is as good as a win, twice on Sundays (see also: Admiral deGrasse).
The Germans had two battleships that, at least at the beginning of the war, made the British fleet not want to engage it. They got lucky with both of them, a lucky hit disabled the rudder of the Bismarck and a blindly dropped bomb hit the Tirpitz. If they even suspected one of them was active they stayed in port But I'm not really arguing against doomstack battles anyway. They have their place.