Doomstacked Doomstack Doom-Thread: ReDoox

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EntropyAvatar

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One thing I wonder about is how weapons fire itself could degrade accuracy. If you are trying to say hit a corvette, and there are currently a lot of missiles, mass driver rounds, plasma balls, laser impacts and nuclear explosions happening in close proximity to the corvette, I could see how it might be hard to figure out where exactly the corvette is at the moment. You might have to wait for the metaphorical smoke to clear. Perhaps a ship that is already being targeted with a bunch of fire could be harder to hit. That would make it harder in practice for a fleet to focus-fire another fleet down by directing all fire at one target at a time.

Of course, having nuclear explosions happening nearby probably isn't very good for the corvette's targeting either. A target that is being hit with a lot of fire or near misses might suffer some reduction in it's accuracy. That would also argue against focused fire, since you could degrade your opponent's accuracy by keeping their ships under fire.

This was actually in important effect in real-world naval battles. It might be something that could be adopted for Stellaris.
 

Drowe

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I'm not going to get into a deep discussion of AI and information theory here, but you're wrong here. Some things are not done well by an AI with insufficient data because AI tends to be best at deterministic actions, not stochastic ones. Experienced non-AIs would generally outclass them. Even a sentient AI would perform equivalent to a non-AI (albeit quicker -- though that is of limited use here since the speed boundaries are physical, not informational). It's why AI can be so difficult to defeat in chess but incredibly easy in, say, an FPS game.

And I don't want to go too farm down the rabbit hole of AI discussions since the other logistical problem of commanding a huge fleet is physical (comm noise, maneuvering, etc.).
There is no insufficient data though, the problem is there is too much information for a human mind to process quickly, although even that isn't entirely true given the right tools.

The most simple battle formation that guarantees every ship has line of sight to the enemy, is to put all ships on a vertical plane relative to the direction they are moving, all facing the enemy fleet. With the distances involved this should more than suffice to kill a much smaller fleet before they have the chance to close the range and mess up the formation.

It's also incorrect that FPS AI is easy, unless it's deliberately made to be that way. Because an FPS AI can have perfect aim with any weapon, it has perfect detection, you can't sneak up on it unless the AI developer specifically gives it a handicap.

There are some things AI is bad at, but math certainly isn't one of those. In most cases a specialized AI can outperform any human in the task it was programmed to do. This is not a sign of intelligence, only of their ability to find optimal solutions to mathematical problems. What you are talking about is general AI, and were even getting close to creating that, and probably will have them within the next 20-30 years. Given the fact that limited successes have been made recently, such as beating a human master at the Chinese game GO, which is orders of magnitude more difficult for an AI than chess.
 

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Another theme of discussion in this thread is about trying to make battles less decisive, without making it too easy to run away. Right now it seems like we have a choice between a model where decisive fights never happen and a model where all battles are battles of annihilation.

What if emergency FTL could always be activated instantly - but ONLY outside the gravity well of the system? I think that would be an interesting trade-off. You have to enter the system to do damage, but your window of vulnerability would scale with just how deep you go. Of course, fleets would have to be much, much smarter, running away from hopeless fights and heading for the edge of the system once a fleet that can kill it shows up. It would probably also help if fleets could target where they enter the system and if faster fleet elements could move semi-independently to bring a fleeing fleet under fire.
 

durbal

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There is no insufficient data though, the problem is there is too much information for a human mind to process quickly, although even that isn't entirely true given the right tools.

The most simple battle formation that guarantees every ship has line of sight to the enemy, is to put all ships on a vertical plane relative to the direction they are moving, all facing the enemy fleet. With the distances involved this should more than suffice to kill a much smaller fleet before they have the chance to close the range and mess up the formation.

It's also incorrect that FPS AI is easy, unless it's deliberately made to be that way. Because an FPS AI can have perfect aim with any weapon, it has perfect detection, you can't sneak up on it unless the AI developer specifically gives it a handicap.

There are some things AI is bad at, but math certainly isn't one of those. In most cases a specialized AI can outperform any human in the task it was programmed to do. This is not a sign of intelligence, only of their ability to find optimal solutions to mathematical problems. What you are talking about is general AI, and were even getting close to creating that, and probably will have them within the next 20-30 years. Given the fact that limited successes have been made recently, such as beating a human master at the Chinese game GO, which is orders of magnitude more difficult for an AI than chess.

Sigh...that rabbit hole.

a) There is insufficient data unless some omniscient being is commanding the fleets. There always is in stochastic systems.

b) FPS AI is easy. Maybe it's a bad example because people will latch onto the 'aimbot' concept, but aside from motor skills the actual strategy element of of FPS AI gameplay is bad. The bots are dumb no matter how good their aim is. They can't adapt to different strategies well because their AI works on limited data and is therefore highly deterministic (enemy detected here, go here, shoot enemy -- maybe with a bit of flair here or there).

c) Normal AIs are completely incapable of math. Computers do computations well. (As my first analysis professor said on the first day of class 'Forget what you learned in high school. Mathematics is not compuations.') They are wholly incapable of actual mathematics because they lack human cognition. If an AI were able to perform actual mathematics (i.e. proofs and such) then there'd be the so-called singularity at which point all knowledge could quickly be gained through technological means.

These things, especially (a) and (c) lie at the core of information theory and AI theory. They are irrefutable in those current theories.
 
Last edited:

HAL.9000.1

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c) Normal AIs are completely incapable of math. Computers do computations well. (As my first analysis professor said on the first day of class 'Forget what you learned in high school. Mathematics is not compuations.') They are wholly incapable of actual mathematics because they lack human cognition. If an AI were able to perform actual mathematics (i.e. proofs and such) then there'd be the so-called singularity at which point all knowledge could quickly be gained through technological means.

Good point, and thank heavens for that. The difference between math and arithmetic is (hopefully) what will keep us all from being wiped out by machines. In real life, I mean.
 

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Good point, and thank heavens for that. The difference between math and arithmetic is (hopefully) what will keep us all from being wiped out by machines. In real life, I mean.

Do not worry my friend, for many smart people are working around the clock as we speak to bring sentience to machines so we can befriend them!

Surely nothing will go wrong.
 

Drowe

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Sigh...that rabbit hole.

a) There is insufficient data unless some omniscient being is commanding the fleets. There always is in stochastic systems.

b) FPS AI is easy. Maybe it's a bad example because people will latch onto the 'aimbot' concept, but aside from motor skills the actual strategy element of of FPS AI gameplay is bad. The bots are dumb no matter how good their aim is. They can't adapt to different strategies well because their AI works on limited data and is therefore highly deterministic (enemy detected here, go here, shoot enemy -- maybe with a bit of flair here or there).

c) Non-sentient AIs are completely incapable of math. Computers do computations well. (As my first analysis professor said on the first day of class 'Forget what you learned in high school. Mathematics is not compuations.') They are wholly incapable of actual mathematics because they lack sentience. If an AI were able to perform actual mathematics (i.e. proofs and such) then there'd be the so-called singularity at which point all knowledge could quickly be gained through technological means.

These things, especially (a) and (c) lie at the core of information theory and AI theory. They are irrefutable in those current theories.
Ok I see that you are latching on my simplified use of language and generalizations I used to keep it relatively short. This does not mean I don't know what I'm talking about.

To answer a)
Insufficient data is not a problem in space combat, there is no way in Stellaris to hide a ship, and there is also no way in reality to hide a ship, unless you park it behind a planet or star. But you would still see it approaching from light years away, either by some kind of FTL emissions from their method of FTL travel or if it doesn't have FTL then because it smacks into hydrogen atoms initiating fusion, if it approaches anywhere close to the speed of light, or from its infrared emissions and because it blocks out the light of the stars behind it. So no stealth in space barring the invention of a cloaking device.

This leads automatically to the next consequence. If you can't hide, fleeing or engaging are your only options. If you decide to engage, you want all your ships to have two abilities, room to maneuver and a free line of sight, especially if your fleet is more powerful. You could either use a standard formation like a wall or have a computer generated optimal distribution given that each of your ships is a known quantity. This does not require it to understand math, it just needs to do calculations to do that. And the most likely solution for attacking over large distances is by using probability to discern where the other ships are going to be, the more shots you can fire at once, the more likely you are to hit. Once you get to shorter ranges, accuracy will improve dramatically, so that's something a smaller fleet should avoid.

To be b)
I didn't claim they were intelligent, I said their lack of intelligence is compensated or more precisely overcompensated by the ability to be more accurate and with faster reaction times than you are. So much, that in order for you to have a chance they need to dial this ability down.

To c)
This is incorrect, plain and simple. Automated theorem proving is one such example. It doesn't even require AI. Formulating a theorem is currently beyond them, but proving it correct or incorrect isn't. But they are by now also capable of inductive reasoning, meaning they can make decisions based on incomplete information, just as humans can. Some years back there was an episode of jeopardy featuring the Watson AI by IBM, who was capable of that. One of the questions was to name "A long tiresome speech delivered by a frothy pie topping" and it came up with the correct answer, "What is meringue harangue". This answer wasn't anywhere in its database. A similar question asked for a rhyming "Boxing term for a hit below the belt" and it came up with the incorrect answer "A Wang bang" this was a term it invented because it didn't know the correct answer "A low blow".

Sure those examples aren't math, but they are of a similar concept. Math is just another language after all. So yes, an AI is capable of learning math, and it can actually be creative as well. Which is why the field of AI safety is so important, before we create an AI that has the potential to become a Technological singularity, we need to be able to control it, because once it reaches that stage, we will no longer be able to understand how it works.
 

durbal

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Ok I see that you are latching on my simplified use of language and generalizations I used to keep it relatively short. This does not mean I don't know what I'm talking about.

To answer a)
Insufficient data is not a problem in space combat, there is no way in Stellaris to hide a ship, and there is also no way in reality to hide a ship, unless you park it behind a planet or star. But you would still see it approaching from light years away, either by some kind of FTL emissions from their method of FTL travel or if it doesn't have FTL then because it smacks into hydrogen atoms initiating fusion, if it approaches anywhere close to the speed of light, or from its infrared emissions and because it blocks out the light of the stars behind it. So no stealth in space barring the invention of a cloaking device.

It's a trivial concept that omniscience is required in order to have a deterministic system in our reality. In other words, you cannot say with absolute certainty whether or not something will occur unless you have all required information (which would make you omniscient in our reality, including all knowledge of the future). The less information, the greater chance for error in probability calculations. This is not even something remotely able to be argued. Might as well argue a<>a or something.

To c)
This is incorrect, plain and simple. Automated theorem proving is one such example. It doesn't even require AI. Formulating a theorem is currently beyond them, but proving it correct or incorrect isn't. But they are by now also capable of inductive reasoning, meaning they can make decisions based on incomplete information, just as humans can. Some years back there was an episode of jeopardy featuring the Watson AI by IBM, who was capable of that. One of the questions was to name "A long tiresome speech delivered by a frothy pie topping" and it came up with the correct answer, "What is meringue harangue". This answer wasn't anywhere in its database. A similar question asked for a rhyming "Boxing term for a hit below the belt" and it came up with the incorrect answer "A Wang bang" this was a term it invented because it didn't know the correct answer "A low blow".

Sure those examples aren't math, but they are of a similar concept. Math is just another language after all. So yes, an AI is capable of learning math, and it can actually be creative as well. Which is why the field of AI safety is so important, before we create an AI that has the potential to become a Technological singularity, we need to be able to control it, because once it reaches that stage, we will no longer be able to understand how it works.

You have a limited understanding of mathematics (it's not an insult, just an observation). Automated theorem proving is just logic and is absolutely essential for even the most mundane AI (since it wouldn't be able to make decisions otherwise). It's not fully-cognitive AI. Non-fully-cognitive AI cannot formulate new knowledge. This is completely irrefutable, which is why it's defined as non-fully-cognitive.

And I'm aware of computers being capable of reasoning. It's called stochastic decision-making. All PDX games use it, as well as every other game besides stuff like Pac-Man and Space Invaders. Watson uses it to understand human language (all speech recognition systems do, including the one in your head).

<-------------- Works in computational linguistics. Designed speech recognition AI models. (For what it's worth).
 

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It's a trivial concept that omniscience is required in order to have a deterministic system in our reality. In other words, you cannot say with absolute certainty whether or not something will occur unless you have all required information (which would make you omniscient in our reality, including all knowledge of the future). The less information, the greater chance for error in probability calculations. This is not even something remotely able to be argued. Might as well argue a<>a or something.



You have a limited understanding of mathematics (it's not an insult, just an observation). Automated theorem proving is just logic and is absolutely essential for even the most mundane AI (since it wouldn't be able to make decisions otherwise). It's not fully-cognitive AI. Non-fully-cognitive AI cannot formulate new knowledge. This is completely irrefutable, which is why it's defined as non-fully-cognitive.

And I'm aware of computers being capable of reasoning. It's called stochastic decision-making. All PDX games use it, as well as every other game besides stuff like Pac-Man and Space Invaders. Watson uses it to understand human language (all speech recognition systems do, including the one in your head).

<-------------- Works in computational linguistics. Designed speech recognition AI models. (For what it's worth).
<--- works in software development, and only deals with AI as an occasional hobby.

You claim that coordinating a large number of ships in such a manner is not something an AI can easily do, but you fail to see that it does not require any complex coordination, which is why I said an AI can handle it. You seem to think about the problem in a far too complex way, when there isn't any complexity involved.

Say you have 100 ships facing 10 ships, the way to allow each of your 100 ships a free line of fire is by making 10 lines of 10 ships each and stack them on top of each other in what ever distance to each other you see fit. The initial distance between both fleets will exceed the engagement range. And by the time those 10 ships would reach the bigger fleet they have taken continuous fire from 100 ships. You can scale it up however much you like, but until those ships reach extremely short distance there is no problem for the larger fleet. After that, it becomes more difficult, and would actually require some sort of coordination, however those short distances aren't short at all by our standards. So an AI would be capable of coordinating it's own ships in such a way that they do not hit each other or block each other's line of fire, provided it is one AI controlling all ships simultaneously and they are within distances to each other where light speed lag is negligible. We are talking about the type of scale where a near miss can mean it missed by kilometers.

What would also happen is that in order to maximize the chance to hit over long distances, where light speed lag matters, you would use alternating firing patterns, trying to cover as much space of where the enemy ship could be by the time your shots arrive. Since neither a human nor an AI can know where the target is when the shots arrive, the solution is not to shoot at the ship, but to cover as much of the area where it could be. And if you shoot with multiple ships coordinated by an AI at such an area, you are not using stochastic methods, instead you try to shoot in a way to minimize the space where the ship could be and not be hit. Because the ship will do random accelerations and decelerations and course changes in order to not be where it could be predicted to be.

Does that make it clear why combat width or the ability to do complex coordinations is not required for space battles unless you made a serious mistake and let an enemy get so close that it becomes difficult? Unless you make a serious blunder or the smaller force has a serious tech advantage that somehow allows it to get that close to your ships, without being obliterated, it will not be relevant.
 

Swkauhn

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If you want good ideas for advanced combat techniques and how to handle large fleets, read the Honor Harrington series by David Weber. His ideas are a good fit for this game.
 

HAL.9000.1

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If you want good ideas for advanced combat techniques and how to handle large fleets, read the Honor Harrington series by David Weber. His ideas are a good fit for this game.

Well, except that in the Honorverse, fleets fought in a "wall of battle" specifically because their armament and defenses were almost entirely built with a broadside focus, and in our universe, it is impossible to maneuver parallel to an enemy's course because after a battle starts you lose all control and the two sides appear to just maneuver into range and engage in a "line abreast" formation.

On the other hand, Weber also wrote some books, the best of which is probably In Death Ground , that utilize a different system that is a little more similar to what we are using in Stellaris. All we are really missing are Capital Missiles (very long range), which could easily be created by extending the range of advanced torpedoes. Everything else seems to have its analog in this game (well, except that fighters/bombers would need a slight buff to be as effective as they were in this particular Weber universe).
 

Person012345

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I feel like the issue isn't so much that doomstacks are OP, it's more so that there is no viable alternative. Provide a viable alternative to doomstacks, and it should reduce the issue. For example, if you made raiding effective at shutting down large fleets, then having small fleets dedicated to raiding would easily shut down an opponent who charges in with their whole navy. The issue though, then becomes someone spamming out 30 tiny fleets and having that amount to a new doomstack, so that would be another issue you would then need to solve... :/
Cue everyone complaining about the raiding fleets. You don't remember that people constantly whined that the AI would send small raiding fleets and accrue a bunch of warscore from destroying mining stations and spaceports? This community will never be happy.
 

Drowe

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Cue everyone complaining about the raiding fleets. You don't remember that people constantly whined that the AI would send small raiding fleets and accrue a bunch of warscore from destroying mining stations and spaceports? This community will never be happy.
That's because right now, blowing up mining stations is a mere nuisance. Apart from the very beginning, there is little value to individual mining stations, even if an average mining station doesn't produce anything for a year on top of the cost it has for building it, that's still less than a single corvette costs.

Therefore raiding fleets simply aren't worth the effort, and the AI doing it makes little sense, except for the very beginning of the game. Doing so weakens the AI when a pitched battle occurs.
 

Person012345

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That's because right now, blowing up mining stations is a mere nuisance. Apart from the very beginning, there is little value to individual mining stations, even if an average mining station doesn't produce anything for a year on top of the cost it has for building it, that's still less than a single corvette costs.

Therefore raiding fleets simply aren't worth the effort, and the AI doing it makes little sense, except for the very beginning of the game. Doing so weakens the AI when a pitched battle occurs.
This has nothing to do with the arguments that were made before. People whined and complained about the amount of warscore it got from doing so. You can't both simultaneously be against big blob combat, and also against smaller dispersed raiding being rewarding.