As i said, that is false. By all accounts there is no advantage in a doomstack. There has rarely ever been one. Taking realistic naval warfare as an example justifying that claim proves it wrong.
DOOMSTACK AND FLEET DOOMSTACKED SUPER-THREAD OF DOOM
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As i said, that is false. By all accounts there is no advantage in a doomstack. There has rarely ever been one. Taking realistic naval warfare as an example justifying that claim proves it wrong.
They must change how you put the auras on the Ship first. Having 8 Battleships designs, one with each Aura + the ones you really use and making sure you have one of each in your fleet suck balls. In the lategame I don't even bother with it and it becomes a polution in my Ship Design Interface and Spaceport.
I really liked that they removed them. For me they can make Flagships (like the Titan) that spawn with a random aura. (very limited on number, even only 1)
I really liked that they removed them. For me they can make Flagships (like the Titan) that spawn with a random aura. (very limited on number, even only 1)
Doomstack is not a problem itself for me, it causes problems because you don't have a Safe Heaven to retreat and rebuild. If you lose the main battle, it's over because you can't rebuild your fleet to become stronger than the enemy and counterattack his doomstack.
We need a Safe Heaven and the doomstack will not be a problem anymore. I will post my solution some day from now.
We need a Safe Heaven and the doomstack will not be a problem anymore. I will post my solution some day from now.
You only <<spread>> your fleet when the opposing fleet as been more or less incapacitated or they will overwhelm you weakened fleet
you never said this in the first place
And no realistic advantage to bringing more firepower and support in space or sea like more strikes craft, ballistic missile, tachyon lance ship etc. ?!
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On a nation against nation scenario both sides would have their fleets mostly concentrated, but never clumped. IRL it is for reasons such as intelligence, and patrol. Upon contact the various squadrons will reinforce the main fleet in battle.
Yet Stellaris is not IRL, field recon does not exists, and various stations aren't that important to patrol. These makes Stellaris different from IRL, which is why in the name of realism we need to tweek things here and there to make it play out realistically.
However, even in reality there is no major doomstack fleet, but several large ones. Each given a zone to operate in, for efficiency and coverage reasons.
Hello
I am creating this thread to see if there are many other Stellaris fans that also feel that the Fleet Mechanics need to be addressed or overhauled but my Idea is specifically to how Fleets are created and maintained. First I'll discuss the current mechanics, its flaws and then what my proposals are.
Current:
At the moment building ships/units in Stellaris operates much in the same way as any other RTS. You select one spaceport, or more if you want to cut down on the build time, choose what type of ship you want to build and create a Que to produce . After the ships are constructed at the various spaceport you select them and combine them into a fleet which causes them all to automatically move together and join into a single fleet. You can create as many fleets you want or just put all your ships into one, the latter is what the Ai will do which generally means you have to do the same.
Now, my issues:
When building the ships you often have to wait until you have sufficient resources to build them. So when you want to build five destroyers, you can only build three and then you have to wait a certain amount of time before you can build the rest, which is boring.
In order to build the ships at various spaceports you click the planet, then the spaceport tab, then Que the number and type of ships you want to build then select the next planet and repeat which in my opinion is micromanagement that you don't need and simply a nuisance.
You can group together all your ships into one fleet, which is what the AI empires tend to do. So when at war the first battle between your two fleets is the deciding factor. After that there is little to no chance of rebuilding your fleet to defend yourself which is frustrating, or for the enemy to rebuild theres to fight you. Which again makes war boring or even a little too easy.
Minor point. Building ships in general is a little too slow, so to defend yourself after losing your fleet goes from little to just impossible.
My Proposals
Instead of building one ship at a time, build fleets which you design.
There would be a 'Create Fleet' tab where you would select which type of ships, that you have designed, and how many would be in the fleet. The number of ships you can have will be capped by the 'Ship Logistic Points'.
For example: You have 30 available Ship Logistic points so you select 10 Corvettes, 5 Type 1 Destroyers, 5 Type 2 Destroyers or build 30 Corvettes or 15 Destroyers, its up to you.
Now that you have designed your fleet, you have to select the spaceport/shipyards that will be assigned to that fleet, number of ports assigned to each fleet capped. The fleet will start to be constructed automatically at the assigned spaceports, beginning with the 'Flagship', and the resources required taken on a ship by ship cost requirement. Meaning that instead of waiting for say 2500 minerals to construct the fleet the spaceport will take 75 to build the Corvette and then wait until you have the required minerals before building the next ship. This automation can be paused by you in order to save resources for something else.
After the first ship is built you can command your fleet and order it into action or moved to a location and the other ships that are under construction for that fleet will immediately move to the fleets location when built and reinforce when it arrives, even when said fleet is in combat.
When ships are destroyed in combat then the assigned spaceports will immediately begin to construct replacements. If the Fleet is wiped out then another Flagship is ordered at one of the spaceports and all ships will move to that location unless ordered to do otherwise.
The 'Fleet Logistics Points' and 'Ship Logistic Points' can be increased when the necessary technology is researched so you can have more and larger fleets, however! The Ships points should be capped to prevent anyone from eventually creating one massive fleet.
For example you will eventually be able to construct 10 fleets with 100 Ships Logistics Points each. Government and species traits could affect this.
A fleet can have more than one spaceport assigned to it but only one fleet can be assigned to a spaceport. No two fleets can be assigned to the same spaceport so if you have two fleets then you will need at least two spaceports.
A spaceport is required not only to replenish ships lost in battle but also to keep the fleet properly maintained and running at peak efficiency. This makes spaceports massive strategic targets. If a fleet loses one of its spaceports then its replacements will be constructed at a slower rate, if it loses all spaceports assigned to it then its combat effectiveness slowly diminishes over time since it is no longer being maintained by a spaceport.
Conclusion:
So thats my idea, I would like to hear what others think and get feedback. If I'm alone in this idea then so be it, but if others want to see some of these changes or any changes then post to get the attention of the developers and tell them what you want.
Cheers
I am creating this thread to see if there are many other Stellaris fans that also feel that the Fleet Mechanics need to be addressed or overhauled but my Idea is specifically to how Fleets are created and maintained. First I'll discuss the current mechanics, its flaws and then what my proposals are.
Current:
At the moment building ships/units in Stellaris operates much in the same way as any other RTS. You select one spaceport, or more if you want to cut down on the build time, choose what type of ship you want to build and create a Que to produce . After the ships are constructed at the various spaceport you select them and combine them into a fleet which causes them all to automatically move together and join into a single fleet. You can create as many fleets you want or just put all your ships into one, the latter is what the Ai will do which generally means you have to do the same.
Now, my issues:
When building the ships you often have to wait until you have sufficient resources to build them. So when you want to build five destroyers, you can only build three and then you have to wait a certain amount of time before you can build the rest, which is boring.
In order to build the ships at various spaceports you click the planet, then the spaceport tab, then Que the number and type of ships you want to build then select the next planet and repeat which in my opinion is micromanagement that you don't need and simply a nuisance.
You can group together all your ships into one fleet, which is what the AI empires tend to do. So when at war the first battle between your two fleets is the deciding factor. After that there is little to no chance of rebuilding your fleet to defend yourself which is frustrating, or for the enemy to rebuild theres to fight you. Which again makes war boring or even a little too easy.
Minor point. Building ships in general is a little too slow, so to defend yourself after losing your fleet goes from little to just impossible.
My Proposals
Instead of building one ship at a time, build fleets which you design.
There would be a 'Create Fleet' tab where you would select which type of ships, that you have designed, and how many would be in the fleet. The number of ships you can have will be capped by the 'Ship Logistic Points'.
For example: You have 30 available Ship Logistic points so you select 10 Corvettes, 5 Type 1 Destroyers, 5 Type 2 Destroyers or build 30 Corvettes or 15 Destroyers, its up to you.
Now that you have designed your fleet, you have to select the spaceport/shipyards that will be assigned to that fleet, number of ports assigned to each fleet capped. The fleet will start to be constructed automatically at the assigned spaceports, beginning with the 'Flagship', and the resources required taken on a ship by ship cost requirement. Meaning that instead of waiting for say 2500 minerals to construct the fleet the spaceport will take 75 to build the Corvette and then wait until you have the required minerals before building the next ship. This automation can be paused by you in order to save resources for something else.
After the first ship is built you can command your fleet and order it into action or moved to a location and the other ships that are under construction for that fleet will immediately move to the fleets location when built and reinforce when it arrives, even when said fleet is in combat.
When ships are destroyed in combat then the assigned spaceports will immediately begin to construct replacements. If the Fleet is wiped out then another Flagship is ordered at one of the spaceports and all ships will move to that location unless ordered to do otherwise.
The 'Fleet Logistics Points' and 'Ship Logistic Points' can be increased when the necessary technology is researched so you can have more and larger fleets, however! The Ships points should be capped to prevent anyone from eventually creating one massive fleet.
For example you will eventually be able to construct 10 fleets with 100 Ships Logistics Points each. Government and species traits could affect this.
A fleet can have more than one spaceport assigned to it but only one fleet can be assigned to a spaceport. No two fleets can be assigned to the same spaceport so if you have two fleets then you will need at least two spaceports.
A spaceport is required not only to replenish ships lost in battle but also to keep the fleet properly maintained and running at peak efficiency. This makes spaceports massive strategic targets. If a fleet loses one of its spaceports then its replacements will be constructed at a slower rate, if it loses all spaceports assigned to it then its combat effectiveness slowly diminishes over time since it is no longer being maintained by a spaceport.
Conclusion:
So thats my idea, I would like to hear what others think and get feedback. If I'm alone in this idea then so be it, but if others want to see some of these changes or any changes then post to get the attention of the developers and tell them what you want.
Cheers
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Also I read on the thoughts of another idea relating to shipyards by user Federick III. Have a look https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/idea-shipyards.974419/
I believe i did say it, if not suggested it but idk i may have not made it clear.
For realism the obviously is an advantage for more firepower, but in term of war, especially on a void the size of space i like to take WW2 as a reference. There will never be an edge to such a tight general concentration of naval assets to one specific location or theater, as it leaves all other theater vulnerable. As well as the option of delaying such a doomstack with a smaller fleet, harming its progress just makes it a waste of resources. You will win that battle, but with a half decent enemy understanding victory is not optional, he will delay you, costing you more time in which your other theaters are completely defenseless.
I feel like i'm not exactly on the same page as you two regarding doomstacks, and not by our opinions.
I just wan't to clarify this:
The definition of a doomstack is a concentration of one's combat ships that exceeds 80% of his entire naval forces, thus effectively making any other place in his territory without the doomstack's presence entirely defenseless.
A mere "large fleet" is not a doomstack.
If a player has a total firepower of 100k, a doomstack will be 80k or more firepower concentrated to a single fleet or a cluster of several, while 60k is just a "large fleet" and not a doomstack.
I just wan't to clarify this:
The definition of a doomstack is a concentration of one's combat ships that exceeds 80% of his entire naval forces, thus effectively making any other place in his territory without the doomstack's presence entirely defenseless.
A mere "large fleet" is not a doomstack.
If a player has a total firepower of 100k, a doomstack will be 80k or more firepower concentrated to a single fleet or a cluster of several, while 60k is just a "large fleet" and not a doomstack.
- Concentrated fleet in one seazone, battlespace, solar system = doomstack
- Well you "reality<gameplay" argument is off please explain further
- I don't know the actual composition of a fleet but if a fleet is designed to control the sea against a major opposition it will be a doomstack ( ex: china+russia vs us jap uk)
I would just like to point out that in most sci-fi universes, the actual main fleet battles ARE doomstacks.
Honorverse: both Battle of Manticore (Manticore v. Haven, Manticoran Alliance v. Solarian League)
Star Trek: Battle of Wolf 359
Star Wars: Battle of Endor
B5: I forget the name, but the big fleet battle at the end.
At any rate, you correctly hit upon the cause of doomstacking by focusing on issues NOT directly related to fleet sizes. Every other thread usually talks about combat width, logistics, admiral control limits, or some other artificial game mechanic to limit doomstacks. As I've written repeatedly, the doomstack is a tactic and strategy formed organically by the game's overall rules and mechanics. You can't solve it artificially in a way that feels legitimate.
Now, I will play devil's advocate here a bit with you. I think in the Honorverse, a doomstack always wins. After all, a smaller fleet can't stop a larger one from destroying space based industry. That's why Home Fleet stays at Home! The issue in the Honorverse is travel time. And I still say that if you want to fix doomstacks right away, you do it with travel time. After all, what good does it to me to blow up my enemy's worlds and orbitals if I don't leave a fleet for defense? But in Stellaris, it's too easy to just zip across the border, cause some mayhem and get back in plenty of time to defend your own worlds.
It's possible the new "outside your borders" travel time increases will help with this, of course.
Honorverse: both Battle of Manticore (Manticore v. Haven, Manticoran Alliance v. Solarian League)
Star Trek: Battle of Wolf 359
Star Wars: Battle of Endor
B5: I forget the name, but the big fleet battle at the end.
At any rate, you correctly hit upon the cause of doomstacking by focusing on issues NOT directly related to fleet sizes. Every other thread usually talks about combat width, logistics, admiral control limits, or some other artificial game mechanic to limit doomstacks. As I've written repeatedly, the doomstack is a tactic and strategy formed organically by the game's overall rules and mechanics. You can't solve it artificially in a way that feels legitimate.
Now, I will play devil's advocate here a bit with you. I think in the Honorverse, a doomstack always wins. After all, a smaller fleet can't stop a larger one from destroying space based industry. That's why Home Fleet stays at Home! The issue in the Honorverse is travel time. And I still say that if you want to fix doomstacks right away, you do it with travel time. After all, what good does it to me to blow up my enemy's worlds and orbitals if I don't leave a fleet for defense? But in Stellaris, it's too easy to just zip across the border, cause some mayhem and get back in plenty of time to defend your own worlds.
It's possible the new "outside your borders" travel time increases will help with this, of course.
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Register your copy of Stellaris, and post this in the Stellaris corner of the forum. 
Well like I said in my first post you can watch one of the early blorg stream when wiz explains is visions of the interstellar war for the game ( 1 doomstack early and several "battle group" after winning space superiority later in the game.)
For the definition I will go for a large number of units concentrate in one area and group
I agree for the most part. Travel time in the Honorverse is longer than in Stellaris, though it is faster than most Moo2 clones. It takes weeks to months for a fleet to reach a deep strike target and only hours to wreck havok in HV. Compounding that, you've got little to no sensor coverage in hyper and interstaller comm speed is limited to ship speed. So flying your doomstack around to intercept other doomstacks is a no-go. The only way to defend your assets is to sit on them, and the best way to find a large opposing fleet is to hit something they absolutely have to protect.
No, not random. I want a control over which aura I get when I build a (flag)ship.
But yeah, I think devs have mentioned somewhere that auras might be moved to a new super-battleship class ships. No ETA on when those things will make it into the game, though.
The travel time issue is why the U.S. has fleets stationed around the world, as the British did before them.
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Moved, but still - sync your steam account. There's a friendly link in my signature with a how-to.Register your copy of Stellaris, and post this in the Stellaris corner of the forum.
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